276 réponses à ce sujet

[Darkhour]

----9----- wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

Dragon Age 2 is no ME2. It's not like it is continuing the Warden's story.  If it deviates too far from the original people may have no problem simply not buying it.  Bioware should keep that in mind if they decide to remake a franchise that lacks the true sequel/continuity factor.  The DA DLC was the sequel. 

I was late coming to DA:O (and the DA forum), so I never saw any of the preamble. (Although I recall the early trailer, many years ago.) My guess was Fereldon was merely a small part of the Dragon Age world (or franchise). Admittedly, the play through of DA:O did give a strong sense of a story to be continued, but I'd never have guessed it would involve Flemeth. And the DLC wasn't really a bridge to DA2.

Was it expressed that DA:O would be the first of a continuing series and that DA2 was supposed to be the sequel or continuation of the Warden's story?  Or was it that Dragon Age would be a collection of stories? (As I recall, Mass Effect was originally noted as the first installment of a trilogy.)

The Wikipedia entry says: "Set in the mythical kingdom of Ferelden during a period of civil strife, the player assumes the role of a warrior, mage or rogue who must unite the kingdom to fight an impending invasion by demonic forces. BioWare describes Dragon Age: Origins as a "dark heroic fantasy set in a unique world", and a spiritual successor to their Baldur's Gate series of games, which took place in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise."

The DA:O package says, " from the maker of Mass Effect™ comes The Dark Fantasy Epic. You are a Grey Warden, one of the last of a legendary order of guardians. With the return of an ancient foe and the kingdom engulfed in civil war, you have been chosen by fate to unit the shattered lands and slay the archdemon once and for all."

The DA:O manual says, "Dragon Age: Origins is a modern re-imagination of an epic party-based fantasy role playing game, dense with story and tactical combat. Because Dragon Age: Origins doesn't shy from that complex heritage, there's a lot to know..." No suggestion of a sequel.

The 'slay the archdemon once and for all' might be a vague suggestion of additional games or just a marketing blurb.

By "deviate", I refer to gameplay - not story.  Awakening and Witch Hunt are DAO2.  What I'm saying is if they change DA into a mindless hacknlash game people may not buy it because it is a seperate story.  If that was indeed the case it could be viewed as a completely different game and ignored by fans of Origins.

And the whole stroy telling over 10 years doesn't give me any warm fuzzies.  I go back to the last parts of a RPG called Xenogears in which the last portion of the game was told after the fact by the protagonist (because they ran out of time - It was a big game.).  Anyway, it jumped from one point to another with no real continuity.  An entire game playing out like that?... broken segments of history, jumping from one scene to the next without fluidity... I'm a tad bit worried if that is the case.  The fact that they are trying to get people to commit via preorder so soon further makes me question if Bioware knows they are taking a huge gamble.  Only time will tell.

Has anyone blaimed EA yet?

[Brockololly]

TeenZombie wrote...
The problem is, however, that once you've bought DA2, your opinion no longer counts to Bioware, according to what they seem to be doing now.  I *thought* that by buying DA:O on release day, as well as the expansion and DLC, I was showing the developers that I enjoyed the game, and wanted something similar in the sequel, even if it wasn't exactly the same.

What I'm seeing now is developers who don't have anything positive to say about DA:O, and knock all of the elements that they are changing, even if some of us really liked those things in the first game.  So apparently supporting them by buying their product means nothing.  Bioware doesn't care about the current customer.  They want to entice those who are potential customers.

So I'll be watching and waiting, and probably buying this a year after release.  It's what I did with Jade Empire and Mass Effect 1.  ME was a pleasant surprise, while I wasn't enthralled by JE.  At the moment, I have no idea what to think of DA2, and that's just sad.  They're treating it like a new IP, and alienating fans like me.  Guess my money wasn't good enough to be catered to.

Absolutely, completely agree.

I don't want to support a game that *seems* to be trying to go a route I don't care to follow. Some of the key reasons I enjoyed Origins- the Origins stories, the silent PC with full text dialogue choices, the isometric view, the toolset, the Warden and Morrigan, the nice 60+ hour length- won't be in DA2, or at least not how they existed in Origins. Which for the iso view might be good or not, we don't know yet- I'm willing to wait and see. And then given how Awakening was rushed out and terribly buggy as well as the relative quality of much of the DLC, I'm more than a little weary of how quickly DA2 is being shoved out with so many seemingly ME2 inspired changes.

I think their marketing has done its job in showing everyone how different the game is. All its doing now is running off people that liked the non "hot rod samurai" aspects of Origins.

[Revan312]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I was going to take offense to the use of the term apologist until I remember that some people use the term correctly.

To be honest, I don't understand the mindset of the loudest complainers. BioWare won't alter aspects of Dragon Age II at this point and they're not going to listen to our opinion of the game until it actually comes out. In addition, I see a number of people who seem to be actively digging for bad will from David and Mike.

Despite being an apologist, I am still very ambivalent about the change in art style. I don't think I've ever said anything positive about the new combat animations, instead describing them as 'awesome' and glittery.

Could I go into thread after thread to talk about how the new art style sucks, how the environment is ugly, and how all the glowing effects are stupid? Sure. But that would be pointless!* I think it's a much better use of my time and energy to play through the game and then give my opinion on the matter, backed with screenshots and detailed thoughts about what I liked and didn't like.

Developers are far more open to criticism of a game from people who've played the game, who don't suggest they've sold out or dumbed down, and who can offer something a bit more nuanced than 'I hate it.'

*And boring and an insulting level of hyperbole.

True, none of it does any real good except for perhaps the therapeutic act of venting, but otherwise, ya, the dev cycle is pretty close to finished and the last touch ups are being made these last few months.. Lighting getting tweaked, tables getting set in stone etc. But, like I said, it's no more a waste of time complaining as it is to praise and reassure, really.

None of us know how it's going to turn out in the end as none of us have played the finished product, all we can do is assume, speculate and critique the proposed changes. I might end up loving the game and Upsettingshorts might hate it, but it doesn't change the fact that we're both on opposite ends of the spectrum atm. I see the changes as mostly a reduction in the complexity that made DA:O great in my mind, now whether or not that truly impacts my enjoyment, who knows, but I can still blast the changes apart pre-release.

In the end, I don't mind apologists, complainers, haters or otherwise, I think that they're all a vital part of a thriving game community as they help weed out the BS from the gold, people should just stop running into massive, circular arguments all centered around "I'm right" or "your wrong". You don't mind the changes and list reasons why you don't think others should worry, most however simply attack the person in question for not having the same opinion, and that applies to both sides. Though I will say that you and the others I mentioned, (also many of the haters including myself) are fairly egotistical in our opinions and conversation skills when dealing with others of the opposing viewpoint, but that's just an observation.

Darkhour wrote...

And the whole stroy telling over 10 years doesn't give me any warm fuzzies. I go back to the last parts of a RPG called Xenogears in which the last portion of the game was told after the fact by the protagonist (because they ran out of time - It was a big game.). Anyway, it jumped from one point to another with no real continuity. An entire game playing out like that?... broken segments of history, jumping from one scene to the next without fluidity... I'm a tad bit worried if that is the case. The fact that they are trying to get people to commit via preorder so soon further makes me question if Bioware knows they are taking a huge gamble. Only time will tell.

And that's one of the points I'm actually excited about, the telling of a ten year story. If done right I think that could be really sweet, although, yes, it could also be a mess, but on this I'm optimistic. As long as it's linear story telling, if it's LOST style then ya, I'll lose interest quite quickly..

Modifié par Revan312, 08 novembre 2010 - 02:41 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Maria Caliban wrote...


I was going to take offense to the use of the term apologist until I remember that some people use the term correctly.

To be honest, I don't understand the mindset of the loudest complainers. BioWare won't alter aspects of Dragon Age II at this point and they're not going to listen to our opinion of the game until it actually comes out. In addition, I see a number of people who seem to be actively digging for bad will from David and Mike.

Despite being an apologist, I am still very ambivalent about the change in art style. I don't think I've ever said anything positive about the new combat animations, instead describing them as 'awesome' and glittery.

Could I go into thread after thread to talk about how the new art style sucks, how the environment is ugly, and how all the glowing effects are stupid? Sure. But that would be pointless!* I think it's a much better use of my time and energy to play through the game and then give my opinion on the matter, backed with screenshots and detailed thoughts about what I liked and didn't like.

Developers are far more open to criticism of a game from people who've played the game, who don't suggest they've sold out or dumbed down, and who can offer something a bit more nuanced than 'I hate it.'

*And boring and an insulting level of hyperbole.

Because god forbid long time fans who aren't too happy with whats been changed, have no right to have their voice be heard. I know Maria, the only posters wanted are the ones that kiss ass, and if they don't, just shut up and hope for the best.

Considering though you're one of those people that wanted faster pew pew esk gameplay, wanted super unique looking clothing for companions and all the other things people are annoyed about, its no wonder you have nothing negative to say.

[upsettingshorts]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Considering though you're one of those people that wanted faster pew pew esk gameplay

Well, I'd say DA:O was slow pew-pew and DA:2 is fast whiz-bang.

[John Epler]

You know, I feel like I should set up a script that automatically posts this to threads with certain words in the title, but...



If you can't be civil to each other, don't post. Seriously. If all you're planning on doing is jumping down another poster's throat because they have an opinion you disagree with, just stay off the forums entirely.



I don't care if you love what we're doing or hate what we're doing, all I ask is that you treat each other with respect. If you can't manage that, then you aren't going to be welcome here.

[Sir JK]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Because god forbid long time fans who aren't too happy with whats been changed, have no right to have their voice be heard.

The problem is that a lot of people who aren't happy with the direction the game is turning are also frequently jumping to conclusions, making sweeping generalisations and just plain judging based on what amounts to rumour. They're not judging the game for what it is but rather for what they conclude it must be based on a number of worst-case scenarios. So they're really complaining about something they make up in their mind and then blatantly ignoring everything that does not support this view.

Modifié par Sir JK, 08 novembre 2010 - 05:51 .

[Meltemph]

Because god forbid long time fans who aren't too happy with whats been changed, have no right to have their voice be heard.

After a few months, I would describe that as obsessive(a good read though)... Saying you are unhappy with the product they decided to make is one thing, going on like it is a crusade is only entertaining(to watch/read), and not really helpful in the sense that it actually achieves anything.

I know Maria, the only posters wanted are the ones that kiss ass, and if they don't, just shut up and hope for the best.

I don't see to many people only wanting people to "kiss ass" but if you are taking that approach, one could easily argue all someone like you wants is for everyone to cry/complain about everything one does not like. While bloviating is fun to read for some(like me, I find it funny), most of the time it comes across as rude for the sake of it.

Either way, the idea that someone would stick around for any real length of time for a product they are no longer interested, dislike, or are disappointed in, in any significant way, is suspect at best and I would be willing to bet more people will buy it then not(whether used or bargain bin) who are willing to go as long as someone like you, for example, and show so much dedication, whether it is negative dedication or not.

Modifié par Meltemph, 08 novembre 2010 - 05:54 .

[AtreiyaN7]

I'd suggest a script trigger involving purple hair. *cough*

[Revan312]

And the roundy round continues...

Again, a string of posts involving "I'm right and your wrong!", "Your complaining solves nothing!" and "It's the end of the world and your just arrogant!"

*sigh* why do I even try?

Argue about mechanics, not about arguing.. I know this thread is about complainers but jeez people are attracted to nonsensical word duels like a moth to flame.<_<

Modifié par Revan312, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:06 .

[tmp7704]

Maria Caliban wrote...

BioWare won't alter aspects of Dragon Age II at this point and they're not going to listen to our opinion of the game until it actually comes out.

That runs somewhat at odds with comments from BioWare's own folks, who do point out when things get criticized for their appearance and such that "the game isn't out yet we have X months before it ships to improve things". So while it'd be foolish to expect major changes at this point (not that they can't ever happen) still corrections, additions and fixes can --and have to, and will-- be done to game in its current state anyway. It's not yet complete nor fully polished after all.

Of course, it'd also be foolish to expect these corrections, additions and fixes to be affected to large degree by rabble on the forums, but it doesn't also mean external opinions can't have impact at all -- wasn't the speed of 2h animation tweaked in part as result of feedback they've gathered when the game was shown some time earlier?

Modifié par tmp7704, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:07 .

[Brockololly]

Sir JK wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Because god forbid long time fans who aren't too happy with whats been changed, have no right to have their voice be heard.

The problem is that a lot of people who aren't happy with the direction the game is turning are also frequently jumping to conclusions, making sweeping generalisations and just plain judging based on what amounts to rumour.

No, people are going off of the very little info thats out there at present, which, mostly consists of loaded marketing buzzwords which are entirely conducive to generalizations and conjuring up worst case scenarios-especially when maybe some of the confirmed changes, like the voiced PC, ME2 length, glued on companion armor, all fly in the face of what one may have enjoyed a great deal in Origins.

Of course, the easy way to lessen rumor is to.........*wait for it*......................*keep waiting*................SHOW SOME PC GAMEPLAY:O

[Morroian]

Brockololly wrote...

No, people are going off of the very little info thats out there at present, which, mostly consists of loaded marketing buzzwords which are entirely conducive to generalizations and conjuring up worst case scenarios-especially when maybe some of the confirmed changes, like the voiced PC, ME2 length, glued on companion armor, all fly in the face of what one may have enjoyed a great deal in Origins.

There are also the statements from the devs that these people are ignoring in many if not most cases. So unless you're claiming that they're lying..........

[John Epler]

tmp7704 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

BioWare won't alter aspects of Dragon Age II at this point and they're not going to listen to our opinion of the game until it actually comes out.

That runs somewhat at odds with comments from BioWare's own folks, who do point out when things get criticized for their appearance and such that "the game isn't out yet we have X months before it ships to improve things". So while it'd be foolish to expect major changes at this point (not that they can't ever happen) still corrections, additions and fixes can --and have to, and will-- be done to game in its current state anyway. It's not yet complete nor fully polished after all.

Of course, it'd also be foolish to expect these corrections, additions and fixes to be affected to large degree by rabble on the forums, but it doesn't also mean external opinions can't have impact at all -- wasn't the speed of 2h animation tweaked in part as result of feedback they've gathered when the game was shown some time earlier?

To clarify this point a bit - we do read everything that people post, positive and negative. And while some points are so locked down that there's really nothing that'll change due to resources and time, some stuff -does- get adjusted because of fan reaction. We're not going to go in and start a massive overhaul of anything as a result of what we hear, but we do look to see if there's a way to please both groups without making some poor programmer work through Christmas.

The other thing is, we have a few people who spend a decent amount of time on the forums (occasionally, a little -too- much time, perhaps upsetting their significant others *cough*) and so we're pretty good at identifying what's a valid concern versus what's either a matter of opinion for a small percentage of our audience, or what's a result of not having enough information. And, of course, there are always future projects. Though opinions gain more weight when people have actually played the game, enough concern about something pre-release can have an effect on how we do things in whatever our next endeavour is.

Now, having said all this - we're a lot more likely to read someone's feedback when it's presented 'I don't like this change because of these reasons' than when it's presented 'Dragon Age 2? MORE LIKE GEARS OF AGE.. EFFECT. YEAH.'  Civility and common decency will get you everywhere in regards to us reading and possibly responding to your concerns. Throwing out vitriol and bile and talking about how much we, our game and the MLB all suck will quickly get you ignored or, if you start attacking other posters who have contrary opinions, banned.

So keep expressing your concerns! We like to read them, particularly when you back up why you're concerned. However, when you start in on the 'YOU GUYS ARE JERKS AND I HATE YOU' you're probably going to be ignored. Also, bear in mind that I am but a simple Cinematic Designer  So my decision-making power is limited to 'hey guys, nobody in the forums likes the hitchcock zoom'.

[Olivier_dehFanboy]

Revan312 wrote...

And the roundy round continues...

Again, a string of posts involving "I'm right and your wrong!", "Your complaining solves nothing!" and "It's the end of the world and your just arrogant!"

*sigh* why do I even try?

Argue about mechanics, not about arguing.. I know this thread is about complainers but jeez people are attracted to nonsensical word duels like a moth to flame.<_<

welcome to the internet forum board.

[Sir JK]

Brockololly wrote...
No, people are going off of the very little info thats out there at present, which, mostly consists of loaded marketing buzzwords which are entirely conducive to generalizations and conjuring up worst case scenarios-especially when maybe some of the confirmed changes, like the voiced PC, ME2 length, glued on companion armor, all fly in the face of what one may have enjoyed a great deal in Origins.

Wasn't that what I said? I tried saying something along those lines anyways... my apologies if I failed.

Of course, the easy way to lessen rumor is to.........*wait for it*......................*keep waiting*................SHOW SOME PC GAMEPLAY:O

Yes. Which they will once they've attracted the sceptics and the unaware. There's a good reason the demo haven't been shown officially yet. The simplest conclusion (Occam's Razor) is that it's not indicative of what the game actually looks like and plays like.

[Revan312]

Brockololly wrote...

No, people are going off of the very little info thats out there at present, which, mostly consists of loaded marketing buzzwords which are entirely conducive to generalizations and conjuring up worst case scenarios-especially when maybe some of the confirmed changes, like the voiced PC, ME2 length, glued on companion armor, all fly in the face of what one may have enjoyed a great deal in Origins.

Of course, the easy way to lessen rumor is to.........*wait for it*......................*keep waiting*................SHOW SOME PC GAMEPLAY:O

I agree with this, show us some PC gameplay, it would ease and or/ disturb a lot of minds atm, if it's the latter better to get it out of the way now, if it's the former than it would quiet a lot of the complaining and or concerns, win win either way imo..

Also maybe a quick vid of character creation as that would just be cool

[Meltemph]

wasn't the speed of 2h animation tweaked in part as result of feedback they've gathered when the game was shown some time earlier?

Nothing would indicate that. Bioware just said that they had already planned on tweaking the system still, and it is not exactly hard to believe, considering how much development time is left. The idea that they take any real significant input from the sample size of this forum... well they would have to have some pretty soft skin and it would have to be quite easy to change their minds to do such a thing, I'd have to imagine.

Modifié par Meltemph, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:18 .

[Addai]

TeenZombie wrote...

The problem is, however, that once you've bought DA2, your opinion no longer counts to Bioware, according to what they seem to be doing now.  I *thought* that by buying DA:O on release day, as well as the expansion and DLC, I was showing the developers that I enjoyed the game, and wanted something similar in the sequel, even if it wasn't exactly the same.

What I'm seeing now is developers who don't have anything positive to say about DA:O, and knock all of the elements that they are changing, even if some of us really liked those things in the first game.  So apparently supporting them by buying their product means nothing.  Bioware doesn't care about the current customer.  They want to entice those who are potential customers.

So I'll be watching and waiting, and probably buying this a year after release.  It's what I did with Jade Empire and Mass Effect 1.  ME was a pleasant surprise, while I wasn't enthralled by JE.  At the moment, I have no idea what to think of DA2, and that's just sad.  They're treating it like a new IP, and alienating fans like me.  Guess my money wasn't good enough to be catered to.

Could quote this word for word, so I'll just quote it.

Maria's right that I should just get a life and stop posting on the forums.  I come here looking for things to make me be excited about the sequel to a game I liked.  Once I'm here, I post- probably out of habit- and give my view,  pointless an exercise as that may be.  I think it's safe to say we're all fans of the franchise to one extent or another and that's why we're here.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:18 .

[Alexia89]

The Origin trailers and advertisement made that out to be an action game too....it even had some horrible rock music some thought would be in the game haha

[upsettingshorts]

TeenZombie's post fails to reach the obvious conclusion. The features Bioware believes were core to DA:O are not the same as the ones TeenZombie thought they were endorsing.

That doesn't make those preferences invalid. Not in the least.  Nor is the resulting disappointment with DA:2's development indefensible. 

However, what it does do is make the argument that Bioware is going back on some understood promise of support and/or intentionally abandoning them specious, it doesn't stand up to the scrutiny of critical thinking.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:24 .

[Revan312]

JohnEpler wrote...
*snip*

Pretty much that is what I've been trying to get across though with a little less bias towards the apologists

I love debates and discussion and complaining and hating and defending and loving, just without pointless name calling and put downs being thrown about.. I always thought the internet brings out both the best and worst parts of people.. on one hand shy and or less social individuals can express themselves in anonymity and yet people can be so ridiculous because of it as well..

This board I will say however is rather civil though.. You guys should jump on some of the political forums floating around, now there's some vitriolic bile being spewed about,

[Dave of Canada]

JohnEpler wrote...

So my decision-making power is limited to 'hey guys, nobody in the forums likes the hitchcock zoom'.

Don't generalize, Epler!

... I like it. 

[Brockololly]

JohnEpler wrote...
So my decision-making power is limited to 'hey guys, nobody in the forums likes the hitchcock zoom'.

Oh lord, the hitchcock zoom is nausea inducing:sick:

Modifié par Brockololly, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:27 .