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[hangmans tree]

I wonder what would hitchcock say about DA2 drama...

Hey Hawke! I heard you can light that fist of yours every time and not run out of mana...wanna bet? I bet Kirkwall against that power of yours and a succesive 20 ignitions. Now, put that other hand of yours on the table, spread out fingers...

[Luigitornado]

Now that you mentioned it...yes...they have. Good observation.

I like to take this time to say, if you want to play Origins then play Origins, along with all the DLC that Bioware released.

[syllogi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

TeenZombie's post fails to reach the obvious conclusion. The features Bioware believes were core to DA:O are not the same as the ones TeenZombie thought they were endorsing.

That doesn't make those preferences invalid. Not in the least.  Nor is the resulting disappointment with DA:2's development indefensible. 

However, what it does do is make the argument that Bioware is going back on some understood promise of support and/or intentionally abandoning them specious, it doesn't stand up to the scrutiny of critical thinking.

I wasn't trying to make the argument that Bioware has gone back on some unspoken promise.  As I said, I thought that supporting a product by buying it meant that I was endorsing it.  Of course I did not expect the same exact product when a sequel was to be made; look at the reviews for Fallout New Vegas, and how many act surprised and disappointed that Obsidian had to use Gamebryo, even though this fact was known for a very long time.  So I wouldn't expect developers to stagnate, not at all.

What I did *hope* for, as a consumer, was that they would continue to consider this franchise as the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate 2.  I didn't come up with that tagline out of nowhere, I followed the development of DA:O from the day it was announced, and that was the language *they* chose.  When I hear "spiritual successor to BG2", certain elements immediately come to mind.

Hearing gameplay in DA2 being compared to God of War and Marvel Ultimate Alliance, hearing that traditional western RPG elements such as inventory and being able to change your companions gear at will has been removed, hearing that we are not allowed to pick our race...does not sound like spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate 2 anymore.  

So while I did NOT say that Bioware was going back on an unstated promise, I did say that they appear to be saying that my vote, by purchasing the first game, did not count.  The only votes that seem to count are those that have not been cast yet, new consumers.  That's slightly different from what you seem to think I said.

Here's my post again, for posterity (and because I'd prefer to be quoted if I'm going to misinterpreted):

TeenZombie wrote...
The problem is, however, that once you've bought DA2, your opinion no longer counts to Bioware, according to what they seem to be doing now.  I *thought* that by buying DA:O on release day, as well as the expansion and DLC, I was showing the developers that I enjoyed the game, and wanted something similar in the sequel, even if it wasn't exactly the same.

What I'm seeing now is developers who don't have anything positive to say about DA:O, and knock all of the elements that they are changing, even if some of us really liked those things in the first game.  So apparently supporting them by buying their product means nothing.  Bioware doesn't care about the current customer.  They want to entice those who are potential customers.

So I'll be watching and waiting, and probably buying this a year after release.  It's what I did with Jade Empire and Mass Effect 1.  ME was a pleasant surprise, while I wasn't enthralled by JE.  At the moment, I have no idea what to think of DA2, and that's just sad.  They're treating it like a new IP, and alienating fans like me.  Guess my money wasn't good enough to be catered to.

[StingingVelvet]

I'm noticing today that reaction to the 5 minute leaked video from yesterday is resoundingly negative, even on console websites. Maybe this will be Bioware's first fail?

[upsettingshorts]

TeenZombie wrote...

Hearing gameplay in DA2 being compared to God of War and Marvel Ultimate Alliance,

Considering you're concerned with being misinterpreted, I think your "hearing" about gameplay being like either of those things is pretty unfair to Bioware.  Since they've said from the start it is nothing of the sort.

TeenZombie wrote...

hearing that traditional western RPG elements such as inventory

Still there.

TeenZombie wrote...

and being able to change your companions gear at will has been removed

That's not entirely accurate.  But I'll assume you just mean their armor/clothing.  Minus accessories, weapons, and upgrades.  Essentially, they will be visibly static.  

TeenZombie wrote...

hearing that we are not allowed to pick our race...

Many Bioware games do not let you do this.

TeenZombie wrote...

does not sound like spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate 2 anymore. 

Oh, that marketing phrase again.  

TeenZombie wrote...

So while I did NOT say that Bioware was going back on an unstated promise, I did say that they appear to be saying that my vote, by purchasing the first game, did not count.  The only votes that seem to count are those that have not been cast yet, new consumers. 

At least you're making the "old customers can't possibly like these changes" argument more artfully than most people.  I'm certain your purchase did count, it just didn't mean what you're assuming it does.   And it's not a democracy anyway, pretending it is will only lead to frustrated posts about broken promises.

TeenZombie wrote...

That's slightly different from what you seem to think I said.

But not different enough for me to change my conclusion.

StingingVelvet wrote...

I'm noticing today that reaction to the 5 minute leaked video from yesterday is resoundingly negative, even on console websites. Maybe this will be Bioware's first fail?

Noticing today where?  The thread on it here was pretty much the same as every other leaked video thread.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 novembre 2010 - 12:41 .

[syllogi]

I don't have time to play the breaking down quotes game, so I'll just say that I have seen the leaked gameplay footage, and I do agree with those comparing the combat to God of War and Marvel Ultimate Alliance.  And before you say that Bioware doesn't want us to judge the game by that footage, why did they send it to conventions for people to demo, then?  That's exactly how impressions are made.

As for inventory and companion gear, I heard the podcast, and although I didn't express myself well (it's early, okay???), I do believe that they are simplifying both elements greatly.  Race selection isn't something I will miss terribly, but it was a major part of DA:O, and made BG2 special also.  And though you apparently don't like the "spiritual successor to BG2" tagline, that is the marketing phrase Bioware chose, not me.  So if that tagline appealed to me, and made me think that this franchise was going to stand for something, I guess I'm a fool for listening to advertising.

Which makes me wonder why I should believe anything they're saying now.

As I said, I'll probably buy this eventually, unless really strong user reviews change my mind one way or another.  It's just a disappointment to see the game taken in this direction, and obviously I'm not the only one who feels this way.  I'm not going into every thread in this forum and yelling about how this game is going to suck.  But occasionally, I'm going to express my disappointment.

TL;DR:  You're asking people like me to just get over it, and I'm not ready to yet.  I'm not exactly rioting in the streets, however, I'm just sad that we aren't getting anymore traditional western RPGs from Bioware for the foreseeable future.  That, IMO, is worth being sad about.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

Hearing gameplay in DA2 being compared to God of War and Marvel Ultimate Alliance,

Considering you're concerned with being misinterpreted, I think your "hearing" about gameplay being like either of those things is pretty unfair to Bioware.  Since they've said from the start it is nothing of the sort.

TeenZombie wrote...

hearing that traditional western RPG elements such as inventory

Still there.

TeenZombie wrote...

and being able to change your companions gear at will has been removed

That's not entirely accurate.  But I'll assume you just mean their armor/clothing.  Minus accessories, weapons, and upgrades.  Essentially, they will be visibly static.  

TeenZombie wrote...

hearing that we are not allowed to pick our race...

Many Bioware games do not let you do this.

TeenZombie wrote...

does not sound like spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate 2 anymore. 

Oh, that marketing phrase again.  

TeenZombie wrote...

So while I did NOT say that Bioware was going back on an unstated promise, I did say that they appear to be saying that my vote, by purchasing the first game, did not count.  The only votes that seem to count are those that have not been cast yet, new consumers. 

At least you're making the "old customers can't possibly like these changes" argument more artfully than most people.  I'm certain your purchase did count, it just didn't mean what you're assuming it does.   And it's not a democracy anyway, pretending it is will only lead to frustrated posts about broken promises.

TeenZombie wrote...

That's slightly different from what you seem to think I said.

But not different enough for me to change my conclusion.

StingingVelvet wrote...

I'm noticing today that reaction to the 5 minute leaked video from yesterday is resoundingly negative, even on console websites. Maybe this will be Bioware's first fail?

Noticing today where?  The thread on it here was pretty much the same as every other leaked video thread.

[upsettingshorts]

TeenZombie wrote...

I don't have time to play the breaking down quotes game, so I'll just say that I have seen the leaked gameplay footage, and I do agree with those comparing the combat to God of War and Marvel Ultimate Alliance.  And before you say that Bioware doesn't want us to judge the game by that footage, why did they send it to conventions for people to demo, then?  That's exactly how impressions are made.

What it looks like and what it plays like are two different things, are they not?  The animations definitely got the Hot Rod Samurai treatment, but until we actually see a leaked demo video recorded by a player who knows what a tactical RPG is, we're gonna see a ton of hack and slash guys playing it like a hack and slash game.  The ones that have paused - usually briefly enough for it to seem like an accident - all of the things we'd expect to be there are there.

Not to mention, no console preview video I've seen actually turned off push-to-attack and opted for the auto-attack style that will be on PC.  So the PC will be fundamentally different in that respect, in addition to its GUI.

TeenZombie wrote...

And though you apparently don't like the "spiritual successor to BG2" tagline, that is the marketing phrase Bioware chose, not me.  So if that tagline appealed to me, and made me think that this franchise was going to stand for something, I guess I'm a fool for listening to advertising.

Which makes me wonder why I should believe anything they're saying now.

I wasn't around here - the forums that is, I've been playing Bioware games for a long time - did they say franchise, or game?  Not that it's all that important, but I figured I'd ask.  With that being said, my original point was based on the notion that their idea of what makes a spiritual successor might be different from yours.  Does it constitute a betrayal if they're following their vision?

TeenZombie wrote...

TL;DR:  You're asking people like me to just get over it, and I'm not ready to yet.  I'm not exactly rioting in the streets, however, I'm just sad that we aren't getting anymore traditional western RPGs from Bioware for the foreseeable future.  That, IMO, is worth being sad about.

That's not what I'm asking.  I'm asking for folks who are disappointed simply not to take the easy way and blame Bioware for abandoning them by stating they don't care about their customers.  Why can't it simply be that their vision of what makes a good CRPG is or has always actually been different than what some fans expected it to be?

It's perfectly okay to be disappointed without attempting to ascend some sort of moral high ground and look down on Bioware and/or some conception of new fans..

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 novembre 2010 - 01:18 .

[LTD]

JohnEpler wrote...


To clarify this point a bit - we do read everything that people post, positive and negative.

I have been too busy  nerd raging about to pay any attention to finer things of forum-life here. It really  is great how much time and effort Bioware's devs use to adress questions/commentary/overall emoing of fans here. If I were a busy game Dev and somebody kept pestering me with  questions about  F/F romances, love making locations  or whatnots, I'd just throw my stapler at him.

Modifié par LTD, 08 novembre 2010 - 01:57 .

[upsettingshorts]

That's why they (insert change to DA:2 here that anyone reading this post disliked). One feature changed for each incredibly disturbing romance thread.

[LTD]

Hahaha. I fear you are right sire:l

[Lord Gremlin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That's why they (insert change to DA:2 here that anyone reading this post disliked). One feature changed for each incredibly disturbing romance thread.

Does this mean mabari romance confirmed?

[upsettingshorts]

Lord Gremlin wrote...
Does this mean mabari romance confirmed?

Poof! There goes eye color sliders!

[StingingVelvet]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...

I'm noticing today that reaction to the 5 minute leaked video from yesterday is resoundingly negative, even on console websites. Maybe this will be Bioware's first fail?

Noticing today where?  The thread on it here was pretty much the same as every other leaked video thread.

Destructoid, Kotaku, various other forums, etc..  All over the internet means all over the internet.

[saeid]

DAO is one of the best game ever, like ME1 but bioware try too hard to sell more copies, I hope no one support bioware for not supporting their fans and not listening to their opinions. I'm not buying the game.

[Onyx Jaguar]

saeid wrote...

DAO is one of the best game ever, like ME1 but bioware try too hard to sell more copies, I hope no one support bioware for not supporting their fans and not listening to their opinions. I'm not buying the game.

Finally someone with a sense of reason

[upsettingshorts]

StingingVelvet wrote...

Destructoid, Kotaku, various other forums, etc..  All over the internet means all over the internet.

I read the comments on Destructoid and Kotaku. You are grossly overstating and oversimplifying the reaction. The reaction is a mix of the disappointed, the thrilled, the uninformed, and the indifferent. Just like every thread here.

You have an agenda. And it's completely transparent.

saeid wrote...

DAO is one of the best game ever, like ME1 but bioware try too hard to sell more copies, I hope no one support bioware for not supporting their fans and not listening to their opinions. I'm not buying the game.

Which fans?  Whose opinions?  Egocentrism is fun.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 novembre 2010 - 02:25 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Real fans will buy the Witcher 2

[Ziggeh]

Damn them, wanting to make a better game, damn them all to hell.

[Onyx Jaguar]

I know, The Witcher was fine as it is

[Eldragon]

I think 80% of the problem is Bioware's marketing is consistently terrible. Do you remember the DA:O Trailer with the Marylin Manson soundtrack? I STILL have friends that refuse to play DA:O because they saw the trailer and will now forever assume that Dragon Age is a God of War knock off. It does not help that the fans are basically kept in the dark, and so we start making assumptions about what little details we get.





My guess is someone at Bioware held a focus group that determined all people want to play is Action oriented gore-fests, and so now they are trying to market the game as such, just like they did with DA:O.

[syllogi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
That's not what I'm asking.  I'm asking for folks who are disappointed simply not to take the easy way and blame Bioware for abandoning them by stating they don't care about their customers.  Why can't it simply be that their vision of what makes a good CRPG is or has always actually been different than what some fans expected it to be?

It's perfectly okay to be disappointed without attempting to ascend some sort of moral high ground and look down on Bioware and/or some conception of new fans..

Notice how I have not taken the "low road" of insulting those fans who are not bothered by these changes?  Yet you, and the fans who seem to take great offense at any criticisms of this new game, have no problem with doing that to me and those who share my outlook. 

I'm not casting any judgements on those who are looking forward to DA2.  Good for you, you're getting what you want.  I am disappointed with Bioware, as a consumer, and as long as Bioware allows me to say so on their forum, I will do so when appropriate.  You say I'm looking down on Bioware or pretending I have some moral high ground because I liked their older games, but it's pretty much the same thing as calling me a whiny whiner who needs to be quiet.  And yeah, I've noticed that those who aren't happy right now are the ones being warned, while those who jump down the throats of anyone with doubts are allowed to post without censure.

So I'll go back to lurking, but really, no amount of energy you expend "debating" with those like me is going to change their minds.  Some people just are not going to be happy, and you too need to have some acceptance.

[upsettingshorts]

TeenZombie wrote...

Notice how I have not taken the "low road" of insulting those fans who are not bothered by these changes?  Yet you, and the fans who seem to take great offense at any criticisms of this new game, have no problem with doing that to me and those who share my outlook. 

This is the first time, by my count, that insults have entered this discussion at all.  Discussing the flaws in your argument is not insulting, it's debate.

TeenZombie wrote...
You say I'm looking down on Bioware or pretending I have some moral high ground because I liked their older games, but it's pretty much the same thing as calling me a whiny whiner who needs to be quiet.

No it isn't.  I say you're looking down on Bioware and your conception of "new fans" (and by implication, old ones who do not share your opinion) because... that's what your argument comes down to.  And nothing else.  All I was asking was for you to frame your disappointment and/or criticisms in a manner more respectful of Bioware's creative folks who are nice enough to post here, and fans whose opinions are just as valid as yours.  

I have taken the low road at no point.  I have used no insults.  I have simply pointed out the flaws in your assertions and arrived at a conclusion.  I have not said you were a whiner, nor have I disputed your right to be upset.  However I am now being accused of doing that very thing.  Color me surprised.

Another poster - not you - lied about the nature of reactions on two other websites, and I didn't arrive at that conclusion or respond forcefully until I actually checked.  And I really don't think my response to that was unjustifiable.

And then another poster - also not you - implicitly claimed to speak for all fans.  I asked which fans.  Also not unjustifiable.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 novembre 2010 - 03:17 .

[tmp7704]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Real fans will buy the Witcher 2

Yup, that will totally show BioWare how real fans scorn games with fixed, voiced protagonist, companions you have no control over and twitch combat-

oh, wait. damn.

[Bramm]

The ONLY thing I would have liked extra in a follow-up to DA:O is Multiplayer. The rest was in my eyes perfect.



I liked the slow combat, it made it feel more realistic. The super flashy combat they have implemented in DA2 just looks like an arcade game, takes away all of the feeling of a raw, hardcore RPG.



And whats the deal with not being able to choose race? VO is cool, it is.. but I'd much rather be able to customize my character and add my ideas on who he/she is and where he/she came from.



I really liked the background options in DA:O, will miss it greatly. I just can't see myself reaplying the game with only one guy to play.. I replayed DA:O once for each race.

[In Exile]

TeenZombie wrote...
What I did *hope* for, as a consumer, was that they would continue to consider this franchise as the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate 2.  I didn't come up with that tagline out of nowhere, I followed the development of DA:O from the day it was announced, and that was the language *they* chose.  When I hear "spiritual successor to BG2", certain elements immediately come to mind.

There was another game that was called a spiritual successor once, to a game many considered Bioware's finest and the game that introduced them to RPGs. That was Mass Effect, the "spiritual succesor of KoTOR".

Spiritual succesor is a nonsense marketing term. What Bioware might see as succeeding a game is not what everyone else might.

I recall on the old DA:O forum that DA:O was getting absolutely based as a brainless action RPG with hack & slash based on the previous (like the violence trailer) and from those that followed the development more closely, for betraying BG by having some of the following features:

1) Origins - wreck roleplay by preventing many character concepts (my human female rogue has to be a noble)
2) Health/Mana regeneration - without Vancian magic there is no strategy
3) Cannot kill plot NPCs - stupid restriction removes roleplaying
4) No tetris inventory - inventory was dumbed down to the point it cannot even be inventory

There's lots more stuff there, but that's just a preview.

DA:O was accused of not being a spiritual successor to BGII. If that's the case, there had to have been lots of people that saw that the central features of BG were to not be in DA:O. Which means that, whatever Bioware thinks those features are, they might not be what everyone else thinks.

So while I did NOT say that Bioware was going back on an unstated promise, I did say that they appear to be saying that my vote, by purchasing the first game, did not count.  The only votes that seem to count are those that have not been cast yet, new consumers.  That's slightly different from what you seem to think I said.

Here is the issue: it is impossible for Bioware to know what you are endorsing. I bought DA:O. On the old forum, one of the features I request was PC VO. I love PC VO, and think it makes the character come alive versus plot emiting puppet. Well, if I bought DA:O, does that mean I endorses silent VO? Not really. But how does Bioware know this?

Anyway, let's say Bioware can figure some things out from our purchase. For example that everyone who bought DA:O wanted to support a spritiual succesor to BG. Well, we still have the problem that no one can agree on what it means to do that.

What Bioware did was likely to market surveys, follow-up on reviews, track playstyle choices based on data from the social site. That led them to a variety of conclusions, like Origins are not ideal (because the overwhelming majority played human only).

But the broader question is - how can Bioware possibly know why you buy the game?