861 réponses à ce sujet

[Yana Montana]

@ Stck668

I am more interested in a "good game" as well, but when more options ever hurt anyone?

Modifié par Yana Montana, 09 novembre 2010 - 10:25 .

[Fortlowe]

Well, I'll refrain from judging whether this will be a 'good game' or not until after I play it. Zelda: Ocarina of Time had no customization at all and it was definitely an RPG and universaly regarded (myself included) as a materpiece. If I play DA2 and I plain old don't find myself missing the customization options, because it's so good, then that works for me just fine.

[Shreav]

I don't mean to sound pessimistic but from the general direction of this game, I doubt there will be a toolset. What's probably going to happen is that the developers will, from time to time, release item packs and skins, and bank on that in a similar style to the Cerberus Network.

I hope to God that I am wrong.

Modifié par iShreav, 09 novembre 2010 - 10:32 .

[Fortlowe]

Mmmm....me too. There's plenty of money in expounding on the narrative via DLC. The Blood Dragon Armor casts a gloomy shadow upon reflection.

[Stick668]

@Yana:

Oh, options don't hurt as such, but I think you used the word "essential". About a very specific set of options.

@Ciryx:

I don't believe there is one "next logical step". And I don't believe everything new has to begin by including everything old and then adding More Awesome. There's progress in refining and in cross-breeding. Progress in some direction. Because there's more than one good direction available.

I'll say this: the older I get, the more I appreciate games getting to the point. I like complexity. But my patience for clicky chores and redundancy - which is how I see "spending half the game collecting and sorting loot and crafting better doilies" - wanes all the time. And as I don't find this even a slight contradiction... I don't mind at all what Bioware did with ME2 and appear to be doing with DA2. (I could give non-BW examples as well, but then I'd totally fall into Gratuitous Blogging territory. Better stop now.)

Modifié par Stick668, 09 novembre 2010 - 10:41 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

Aermas wrote...

Would you re-sculpt Mt Rushmore? If it isn't broke don't fix it.

No, but I would likely consider trying something new if I were to carve a new mountain.

Aermas wrote...

I'm not saying that every armor in the game needs to be tailored for every character. I am saying give me a handful of armors that I can change whenever I feel like

Sounds about right. Several options for each companion. I get the feeling this would satisfy a great deal of people.

Sir JK wrote...

That too, but a unique model needs it's own animations and if it is unique then they can put that character's touch on every action. Mimicing body language.

That would be a few steps ahead. It will probably come to that sometime in the future. Different body shapes for each character is a big step already by current standards.

On topic, BioWare don't produce cheeseburgers. They develop video games. It will upset me if my burger has less sauce in it than I'm used to, but the same hardly holds true for games; they ARE supposed to change stuff in every new game they release. Trends change. Each new game needs to adjust and adapt. Sometimes they'll fail, sometimes they'll succeed. Most of us have preconceptions about Dragon Age 2, and most of those will change or perish altogether once we get our hands on the game. Not all, mind you, but it's hard to tell which. They tried a lot of different things in Mass Effect 2. Some worked, some sucked. Some worked for me but sucked to you. The exact same will be the case with Dragon Age 2 as well. And that will give new ideas to BioWare for future games.

And there'll be craploads of people to reminisce good old days with unique outfits for each companion a decade later. Because that's how the wind always blows.

If developers never tried new stuff, we'd still be playing goddamn Pacman. Give some room for gaming to bloody evolve, for crying out loud.

[Yana Montana]

Stick668 wrote...

@Yana:

Oh, options don't hurt as such, but I think you used the word "essential". About a very specific set of options.

Yeah, all right I am biased. I love customisation and that's one of the major reasons why I love playing RPG. And I know I am not the only one.

[Ciryx]

Stick668 wrote...

@Ciryx:

I don't believe there is one "next logical step". And I don't believe everything new has to begin by including everything old and then adding More Awesome. There's progress in refining and in cross-breeding. Progress in some direction. Because there's more than one good direction available.

Yes, i dont think there is "one" next logical step. There may be many, i just fail to see the logic in the one taken right now. I never said u have to include everything old, of course its a refining process and in that u cut out things that werent good and add new stuff and reform some other stuff. But all i can see till now is just removeing and destroying options and choices and adding nothing new. And that all is done under the banner of "visual distinction", what could be equally well done with a refined "old" system.

Stick668 wrote...
I'll say this: the older I get, the more I appreciate games getting to the point. I like complexity. But my patience for clicky chores and redundancy - which is how I see "spending half the game collecting and sorting loot and crafting better doilies" - wanes all the time. And as I don't find this even a slight contradiction... I don't mind at all what Bioware did with ME2 and appear to be doing with DA2. (I could give non-BW examples as well, but then I'd totally fall into Gratuitous Blogging territory. Better stop now.)

Clicky chores and redundancy are NOT choices. Most likeley this are userinterface issues (like the terrible inventar in ME1). Secondly: your "spending half the game collecting..." is an integral part of gameplay. Title like Diablo and WoW depend soley on that mechanism. They get annoying and clicky chores if they are done wrong. Like in DA:o. But Title like Diablo proof they can be done right and add tremdously towards the gameplay. And yes, i really thought the Drow Armors that evaporate in Sunshine and Casomyr etc from BG 2 added to the richness of the game and its lore.

Back to clicky: U still have to move stats around and get jewels and entchantments for you DA 2 Partymember and their gear. The stats on it are still customizable. It will be very similiar to DA:O... with the difference you have no visual recoginiton of your actions + u are not as flexible with it since u have less Choices what they should wear. And it doesnt add anything to the lore. (Tier 7 being Dragonbone had at least some kind of AHA! that stuff is probably a rare material -effect)

Modifié par Ciryx, 09 novembre 2010 - 11:04 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The material of the armor added nothing to the lore... For all I care they could have have named Dragonbone "Iron +7". Companions unique outfits add a lot more to their personal lore, as it will help define them as characters. Also, the podcast mentioned that the upgrades you find can change the look of the companions armor. It probably won't be anything major, but at least it adds a bit of visual customization.

[Fortlowe]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The material of the armor added nothing to the lore... For all I care they could have have named Dragonbone "Iron +7". Companions unique outfits add a lot more to their personal lore, as it will help define them as characters. Also, the podcast mentioned that the upgrades you find can change the look of the companions armor. It probably won't be anything major, but at least it adds a bit of visual customization.

I didn't hear that part. I'm going to see if I can find a transcript. If that is the case, then there isn't a problem at all.

[Sir JK]

I interpreted that part as that all characters outfits will evolve over time, but a few of them will change theirs at certain points in the narrative. Not that the upgrades would affect the appearance.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Not guarenteeing anything, but that's just how I heard it, when Laidlaw talked about upgrades.

[upsettingshorts]

Hmm, what I thought is this:

1) Appearance of companion outfits will not change often ("exception, not the rule"). My personal theory is that they will change for plot reasons; If Carver survives the prologue, he will get an upgrade from peasant clothes.
2) Upgrades will alter the effectiveness of companion outfits in various ways - perhaps like runes, perhaps closer to Mass Effect 2's upgrade system but with better GUI implementation.  By that I mean in ME2 it was near impossible to comprehend what your upgrades were doing - besides perhaps the ones to Assault Rifle accuracy which made the Revenant super awesome - because they were reflected almost nowhere in the GUI and had little noticable effect in the game.
3) Appearance of the outfits may or may not evolve over time.

But that's just what I've gathered. I haven't been meticulous or anything.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 09 novembre 2010 - 11:31 .

[Stick668]

Ciryx wrote...

Clicky chores --- get annoying --- if they are done wrong. Like in DA:o. But Title like Diablo proof they can be done right and add tremdously towards the gameplay.

We're in complete agreement here. And I'm getting D3. Yes. (But I'd probably become a nervous wreck if they added party interactions, conversation options and DAO-level of story choices to Diablo 3. "No, I'm not going to bribe you into liking me! What do you mean, kill the werewolves or the elves? Shut up, redundantly romanceable NPC. I have more clicking to do!")

[FDrage]

in principle I do like the idea of "unique" looks for companions, however if it is a party based game I also want some control over what they use, etc.While ME2 had that, which was nice, the inventory streamlining went a bit too far for my taste. Specifically as I wasn't really able to judge on a quick glance without testing what weapon etc. is actually better except by "using a stop watch" or "I got that gun later into the game therefore it must be better" ...



However it wasn't quite as low key as Jade Empire where a new weapon didn't mean anything to me. At least in ME2 it all had a different feel to it and I frequently chose weapons where I like the style and not necessary the one with the most "effect per mouse click".



Also one thing that didn't make sense to me in ME2 was, that I couldn't chose their armour (and therefore its effect) but could chose weapons. Either let everything be unique or both customizable.

Personally I would prefer either being a customizable armour for companions same as the main character (aka looting armour) with viable "unique" armour options (iirc.at least Morigan had a 2nd unique robe which one could acquire .. I think I had it once and still mainly used "generic" robes for her minus the hats) or give use some way of upgrading / changing the "armour" for each companion that preserves a unique recognizable style (not necessary the same exact look as when you met them) where "better" armour looks different to the "beginning" armour but you still would recognize the look as belonging to a certain character.

[Maconbar]

Sigil_Beguiler123 wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

I just want to chip in ona small side-point about the traditional looting in that there are many older tabletop fantasy roleplaying games that have completely different approaches to looting. I know of one (but I forgot it's name) where equipment is provided by ones liege for good service or dangerous missions. I know of another were looting earns very little money and all the good stuff is to be bought (and armour needs to be custom-fitted to be useful). A third where looting is a very valid option... just that the dead don't rest easy and often carry diseases... "Still want that loot?"

So looting isn¨t as fundamental in fantasy as DnD and crpgs might lead one to believe.

But UpsettingShorts raises really good questions about looting which I think are definately worth discussing at some point.

Jumping off that, while extremely difficult to do in non-P&P games beyond the normal progress the plot type moments. It be wonderful if eventually the more immaterial loot that gets used in P&P gets transferred over to video-games, ie; earning favours, reputation, etc. that can be used at various times. I would love to one day see a mechanic almost be like money but where instead of loot (thus most likely get turned into money) you earn favours which can be cashed in for various things beyond just items.

That would be a nice addition.

[Maconbar]

Dave of Canada wrote...

*serious mode activate*

I'm a big fan of this new inventory system because it makes the other characters stand out as their own person. It's really... odd to have characters like Leliana and Morrigan only appear differently because of their armor, characters aren't their own because we're simply switching bodies while keeping the same head.

Such a system, should it have been introduced in Origins, could've added unique animations to each individual character. Let's imagine Sten for a moment having a completely unique look, not wearing Chantry robes or whatever it is silly players can scrounge up and put the big softie in. Sten's animations could appear differently than say... Oghren or Alistair, he has his own model and they don't need to work on a 1:1 instance where all models must fit the same.

It must also be easier to create cutscenes ingame when they don't have to worry about clipping issues with the various armor types.

Though I don't understand much of the hate, should you have full customization of the stats of said armor it isn't much different from Origins. While you can't see a naked Isabela or Varric running around, it doesn't harm the game any less than that.  Hell, the whole idea of having armor scaling should introduce a lot more challenging things in the game. For example, they wouldn't have to worry about having a very undergeared party and can work on the difficulty aorund that. Always making sure your party never "overgears" content.

I'd also talk about having less Daggers or Dalish Leather Jockstraps in chests being a good thing but I've covered that a lot.

I am probably in Dave's camp on the issue of companion armor. I like that it provides the opportunity for unique body types. I also like it because it (for me) increases the illusion that I am interacting interacting with independent individuals.

[only1sgop]

Yana Montana wrote...

@ Stck668

I am more interested in a "good game" as well, but when more options ever hurt anyone?

Your words can not be spoken more truely. I agree.

[Maconbar]

Aermas wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

Aermas wrote...
I'm not saying that every armor in the game needs to be tailored for every character. I am saying give me a handful of armors that I can change whenever I feel like

Yes, but that will mean that none of the characters will have any body language or uniquely poseable bodies (or rather they'd all have the same). That limits characterisation a great deal by reducing the character to just a head and cutting out between 40 and 60% of their entire communication. The interactability with the companions loses a lot by having generic bodies.
That is the primary drawback.

Look what if Isabela had, pantsless suit, leather armor suit, & black leather pirate suit
Carver had peasant's smock, chainmail, fieldplate
Bethany had chainmail corset (her in the pic), Green robe, & Tevinter Magister Robes?

They could keep their signature body shape/movements!

This would work for me. I am guessing that it would require more resources and this may be why BW didn't go this route. I could be wrong.

[Maconbar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

To change things up a bit, I'll state my position on the actual thread topic:

It strikes me as arbitrary and I don't really like it. In a most basic sense, I would prefer that an RPG give me total God-like control over my protagonist's companions (thus making them all PCs, and non-party members remaining NPCs) or, and this is more ideal to me, almost no control at all (thus making the protagonist the only PC). Removing the ability to customize their equipment strikes me as fairly arbitrary and a sideways move. I freely admit something is lost - player agency. Something is potentially gained, in that the companions will be given more unique outfits and appearances. However, that opens Bioware up to judgment on aesthetic grounds that I otherwise would not have judged them on given my own ability to dictate how those characters appeared. For example, in Mass Effect 1 I didn't like Ashley's pink armor, so I gave her something else and forgot about it. If she had been in it permanently, like another appearance I disliked (say, Miranda's catsuit) then guess what, I'm going to love or hate it based on the choices of Bioware's art department and not my own.

So in short, I'm mostly against it for a couple of reasons, but won't mind it as much if all or most of the companions fixed outfits are ones I end up liking.

[JamieCOTC]

Helena Tylena wrote...

For the record, Hawke's inventory and equipment will work exactly the same way as inventory worked in DA:O. Companions are different because their armour is static (might change occasionally), and upgradable. Weapons, rings and necklaces still work the same way.

Also, the Dragon Age podcast is mighty interesting. You should listen to it.

Every time I start getting excited abgout this game, something comes along that totally kills it.

"So, Isabella, you mayhaps gonna wash that wrap any time soon?"
"No."
"Oh ... I think I'll have a headache tonight." 

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 09 novembre 2010 - 02:48 .

[Jordy Laforge]

[quote]Gleym wrote...

Why is everyone so happy about the new inventory system?

The short of it is a quite simple case of connecting the dots:
-The people who are happy about it are the same ones who liked it in Mass Effect 2.
-The people who liked it in Mass Effect 2 are casual gamers.
-Casual gamers don't like RPGs because they require putting time and effort into the game.
-Bioware caters to the casual gamer by alienating longterm customers in favor of appealing to the much larger, casual gamer market.
-Casual gamers love this, as it makes them feel superior in some form, as well as validated as gamers.
-Casual gamers thus praise Bioware and act like anyone who is unhappy is an ungrateful schmuck.

So why is everyone so happy about the new inventory system? Because they're sheep.
[/quo

"Casual gamers" would not frequent the Bioware forums. Casual gamers would not be aware of the differences you talk about. Nor would they know enough about what goes on here to feel superior to any of us. The point of calling someone "casual" means they just don't care enough to come here and feel any way about this subject. They just play what they want.

:)
edit: somehow my reply is in the quote box...oops!

Modifié par Jordy Laforge, 09 novembre 2010 - 05:14 .

[Aermas]

Maconbar wrote...

Sigil_Beguiler123 wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

I just want to chip in ona small side-point about the traditional looting in that there are many older tabletop fantasy roleplaying games that have completely different approaches to looting. I know of one (but I forgot it's name) where equipment is provided by ones liege for good service or dangerous missions. I know of another were looting earns very little money and all the good stuff is to be bought (and armour needs to be custom-fitted to be useful). A third where looting is a very valid option... just that the dead don't rest easy and often carry diseases... "Still want that loot?"

So looting isn¨t as fundamental in fantasy as DnD and crpgs might lead one to believe.

But UpsettingShorts raises really good questions about looting which I think are definately worth discussing at some point.

Jumping off that, while extremely difficult to do in non-P&P games beyond the normal progress the plot type moments. It be wonderful if eventually the more immaterial loot that gets used in P&P gets transferred over to video-games, ie; earning favours, reputation, etc. that can be used at various times. I would love to one day see a mechanic almost be like money but where instead of loot (thus most likely get turned into money) you earn favours which can be cashed in for various things beyond just items.

That would be a nice addition.

Sounds like Reputation & Honor from WoW, I would not like WoW invading my RPG's

[In Exile]

I'm a big fan of losing armour versus stylish clothing, since RPG mechanisms are so abstracted and nonsensical compared to reality. I don't mind a game that tries for faux realism, though.

What I do dislike is nonsense. And Shepard running around in power armour while everyone else got reading to go clubbing was absolutely silly.

If Hawke can wear armour, then I hope there are other characters who also wear armour. More importantly, I hope light armour is, given what we see from Isabella, just fancy looking clothing.

[haberman13]

All "gear" choice should be removed, Bioware knows what stats we need so why would they give us the option to change it?



The only thing you should be able to choose in an RPG is dialogue.



Everything else is for nerds. Thank goodness they are making the combat more like God of War (my favorite game).



DA:O was mind-numbingly boring and filled with stuff I didn't understand. My bras and I like all of these changes, they are good.