861 réponses à ce sujet

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

In Exile wrote...

ViSeirA wrote...
That's my point, realism doesn't count here, the same redundant bodies and armors still exist throughout DA2 in NPCs, they made effort to make each companion unique, if they made the same effort and made 10 unique looking armors and clothing and made them modular and color customizable you'd have more variety and character at your disposal than just a static outfit throughout a ten year game.

No, this is much worse. Because those 10 unique items are generic and stread among everyone, so Elite Boss and generic mook and your party all wear the same intercheangeable 10 items. This is made worse by the fact that some armour becomes rapidly useless, i.e. medium and heavy, so everyone is either in their leather dress or the shoulderpads of DOOM platemail.

Take Assassins Creed 2 for example, the game spanned about 2 decades, you never wondered why Mario or Leonardo wore the same clothes every time you met them for 20 years? it was stupid but the made up for by changing the actual characters appearance, and it even shows more in Brotherhood where actual age shows on the characters, unique isn't always better.

No, it didn't bug me at all. Does it bug you that all characters independent of age, profession, habits, etc. have the exact same build and body type? Or how there can be the chasid robe of breast enlargement?

So wait, 10 unique outfits is worse than 1 unique outfit for companions?  Well now I've seen everything .Lets just face reality, its highly likely the majority of NPC's won't be all that different from each other at all. Given the short dev cycle on DA2, and that the art direction/resources prolly isn't going to change at this point.

[Saibh]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

So wait, 10 unique outfits is worse than 1 unique outfit for companions?  Well now I've seen everything .Lets just face reality, its highly likely the majority of NPC's won't be all that different from each other at all. Given the short dev cycle on DA2, and that the art direction/resources prolly isn't going to change at this point.

The point is that they're not unique--they're generic to everyone. There's no personality to what they wear. Your companions are the focus of DA2 (outside of Hawke), I imagine, just as they were for DAO. They are more important than random NPC #3. And it's quite possible that important NPCs get their own unique outfits, too.

I'm not particularly sold on the new system, but I see valid points from each side.

[MDarwin]

the_one_54321 wrote...

ViSeirA wrote...
Logic says so, They didn't have enough time OR budget to create more than one unique outfit for your companions, do you really think they'll create lots of NPC body types and armor that it makes them very variable you wouldn't notice the similarities? 

Let's face it here, I've worked on team-based projects before and I understand the time/budget constraints but the Origins system worked very well, if they'd taken the time and made a unique outfilt for Morrigan in Origins, then why not Alistair? seeing as how he's as crucial to the story as she is, and they still made companion outfits customizable in Origins, it's all about choices and I believe that in this situation they chose wrong.

10 unique outfits? make them better by providing color customization... I'd be happy if they just provided the illusion of choice, but the current system just fails.

You're projecting based on bias and there is no support for what you're claiming. I don't mean this to be condescending, just observational. There's not much point in me responding with more than this because it would only be further blind speculation.

I agree with ViSeirA. It is a valid point. As for the Inventory/Loot issue, a cut for what? Unique looking Sidekicks? Not a trade off, I agree with. <_<

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...
No, I agree with that- I could conjure up the EA monster, since Origins was the last game BIoWare put out that was started before they were assimilated by EA.

But Origins started 5 years before that. And in between, Bioware developed Jade Empire and Mass Effect, all on their own.

But for whatever reason, I think its a damn shame BioWare is seemingly just using Dragon Age 2 to mimic and iterate off of the systems created for Mass Effect and not Origins.

But what did Bioware create for origins? At best you can say it was the idea of origins, but what they pitched and the barebones version we got was nothing alike.

I was excited for DA:O when they talked about an engrossing personal start to your own story, where you have a background and history in the world, and a personal nemesis that nips at your heels and leads in to the final confrontation with the overarching villain.

This sounded like an absolutely brilliant game, but what we got instead was a generic RPG from Ostagar to Denerim, with a few flavour lines thrown in.

At least design wise and presentation wise it seems that way. And surely you'll have people happy about that, but as Zeschuk and Muzyka have said in past interviews, the audiences between ME and DAO are different audiences. Its the homogenization of the 2 series thats most disappointing to me, especially given how well Orgins did, both critically and commerically.

Here is the thing - Bioware tends to peddle a lot of marketing BS. They went from Shepard is your own character and the dialogue wheel uses paraphrases to simulate how an actual conversation will involve your intention to say something and then your saying it which could have a mish-mash, to this whole "3rd person narrative/1st person narrative" nonsense to avoid biting the bullet and just admiting they handled the paraphrase poorly with Shepard.

One thing I fought for on the old DA:O boards was PC VO. I think it's a brilliant feature and every RPG should have it. The answer was that DA:O was not a game designed with this in mind, and while Bioware might make future games like that, DA:O has a specific philosophy and this is what it will be.

That being said, you won't ever see me lament the homogenization of products. There are features I like in games and features I hate. Silent VO is one of them. To me, it is a tragedy if Bioware decides to use silent VO, because regardless of any other feature of the game, it will be dramatically worse in my eyes just because of the lack of this one feature. If Bioware thinks Silent VO is awesome, then they should design all their games that way. If they think VO is awesome, then they should design their games that way. But producing only 1/2 the quality products for one fanbase is, IMO, just wrong.

Modifié par In Exile, 10 novembre 2010 - 01:19 .

[In Exile]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
So wait, 10 unique outfits is worse than 1 unique outfit for companions?  Well now I've seen everything .Lets just face reality, its highly likely the majority of NPC's won't be all that different from each other at all. Given the short dev cycle on DA2, and that the art direction/resources prolly isn't going to change at this point.

You keep saying 10 unique outfits, but that's just wrong. DA:O had 1 unique outfit: Morrigan's. Everything else was a generic mesh that was available to the party as well as any NPC.

You can praise customizability all you want, but don't make things up to suit your argument. Yes, it would be wonderful if our 10 party members each had 10 unique outfits, and then Hawke had another 10 unique outfits per class, bringing us up to 130 unique models for clothing. But that won't fly.

It's either 15 meshes with 10 of them unique and each locked into 1 character for 10 distinct NPC appearances in your party, or it's 15 generic meshes that everyone can swap.

Modifié par In Exile, 10 novembre 2010 - 01:20 .

[the_one_54321]

In Exile wrote...
DA:O had 1 unique outfit: Morrigan's. Everything else was a generic mesh that was available to the party as well as any NPC.

This statement is accurate.

[Sir JK]

Let's do a assesment over the benefits of the respective systems:



Fixed unique outfits

Benefits:

Unique clothing, makes for a more iconic character

Unique body model, again more iconic character. Makes it possible to recognice a character based on how their body looks and not just the face.

Less risk of clipping issues since the character can be made with that outfit alone in mind

Greater poseability for the purposes of cinematics and conversations (meaning they can actually move in dialogue)

The possibility for unique animations that mimics personal body language



Drawbacks:

Little to no customiseablity

Fewer outfits in total due to needing more indivdual work

Risk of not liking the character based on the look of outfit or growiong fed up with it.



Customiseable outfits

Benefits:

Potentionally more models

More customiseability

The player can choose outfit according to their preference

Visual rewards for progression (new looks "unlocked" by acquiring the armour)



Drawbacks:

Generic body models

Generic animations

More risk for clipping issues since every animation have to be tested for not just every armour but every armour combination



That's all I can think of. Both systems have benefits, both have drawbacks. Neither is inheritely better than the other. The optimal would of course be to have the best of both world by having unique models and great customiseability, but that's a dream of the future I think. In this Bioware has decided to improve companion characterisation (which all of us want I think) by, among other things, make unique bodies (thus outfits). Some of us think it's worth it, some of us don't. That's fine. How well it will play out we can only wait and see.

[Felene]

I like the new system, easy and simple, good thing my Lady Hawke don't have to worry about dressing up her companions for her day to day life.

[tmp7704]

the_one_54321 wrote...

In Exile wrote...
DA:O had 1 unique outfit: Morrigan's. Everything else was a generic mesh that was available to the party as well as any NPC.

This statement is accurate.

It's actually somewhat misleading -- certain model/texture combinations in DAO exist in only single copy and can be worn by just one character at any time, if at all. That makes the person sporting one of these particular outfits unique appearance-wise in very much the same manner Morrigan in her robe was, and the companions in DA2 are supposed to be.

[soteria]

You keep saying 10 unique outfits, but that's just wrong. DA:O had 1 unique outfit: Morrigan's. Everything else was a generic mesh that was available to the party as well as any NPC.

Let's say 10 distinct armor meshes, instead... half of them for massive armor, but yeah.

[soteria]

I could conjure up the EA monster, since Origins was the last game BIoWare put out that was started before they were assimilated by EA.

Of course we've all seen the EA monster pop up in thread after thread. People will believe what they want, but I read something a month ago I thought was interesting about EA. If you're following SW:TOR's development, you may have heard about the "EA louse." In the comments, another person who also claimed to work for EA said the following (snipped):

kwo won wrote...

...In a lot of ways what people from Mythic have posted previously is true regarding the buyout. EA is concerned about the money folks. They figured if we were successful all was well and best not to get involved. WE dealt with GW, we GREW because of their budget for us. I think sadly what people are missing in this is EA was not the problem haha. WE were the problem. No EA coporate execs came our way. No one MOVED to the studio from EARS as overseers. We did acquire someone from EA chicago when they dissolved years later. Only one sadly. Good guy, I digress. In the end what the employees saw was a lack of direction. We saw management being promoted beyond need. Anyone who challenged their newfound authority and “EA managment” status, debunked. You have to understand this was on all fronts in departments. Who doesn’t want their shot at promotion in a studio? EA of all places, a giant studio. They all dreamed of what was happening, it went right to their heads in most cases. So let’s get this over with.

It was really obvious from our persepctive that our marketing was suffering. I can’t say why, maybe we didn’t have the funds. I don’t know I wasn’t in marketing. I’m amazed with the commercials for other EA games we didn’t beg them for assistance though. I can only speculate here as well. Though I admit it was heavy on the heart to see us spend the kids college money to blur for a CGI intro and then never run a single TV ad. Hell Bethesda covered the metro signs for fallout.

...

To EA corporate, your hands off approach to this company helped lead to it’s failure thus far in regards to WAR specifically. I’m not saying you needed to come crack the whip, but as a smaller studio you could have help guide us a little bit better down the roads of multi million dollar projects...

Now, again, people can and will decide whatever they want about EA, probably more on philosophical grounds than on logic, but that's human. I do think what this person said makes sense, though: EA cares about the money. I don't doubt for a second that they push developers to produce games more quickly or that they might give some high-level guidance on the direction they want studios to take. I *highly* doubt EA takes the time to tell any developer to develop or abandon specific features ("You WILL use the dialogue wheel!"). Why would they? As long as Bioware is profitable for them, why waste time and money micromanaging a successful company?

[Ziggeh]

Sir JK wrote...
Both systems have benefits, both have drawbacks. Neither is inheritely better than the other.

While I agree in principle DA:O had a number of issues that I think make the new system preferable to the old, you sort of mention them actually.

Leather hats, mage robes. The number of models, while potentially larger was actually pretty small, and in places, hideously ugly, and despite being customisable, you were stuck with them. Also, unless you're not concerned with such things, you end up stuck in whatever has the best stats, ugly or not. Kills me in WoW, that. I suppose one solution would be lots more models, but they seem to be keen on efficiency in art work

[Ziggeh]

soteria wrote...
Why would they? As long as Bioware is profitable for them, why waste time and money micromanaging a successful company?

Because their hearts are made of black, crystalised evil?

No, seriously though, I agree it would be a waste, but I've seen a lot of companies do exactly that. You'll find a lot of people in management positions who like to ****** on thing's merely to mark their territory.

By no means am I saying it's the case, I just learnt long ago to never assume a business will act in accordance with logic.

[Blastback]

Sir JK wrote...

Let's do a assesment over the benefits of the respective systems:

Fixed unique outfits
Benefits:
Unique clothing, makes for a more iconic character
Unique body model, again more iconic character. Makes it possible to recognice a character based on how their body looks and not just the face.
Less risk of clipping issues since the character can be made with that outfit alone in mind
Greater poseability for the purposes of cinematics and conversations (meaning they can actually move in dialogue)
The possibility for unique animations that mimics personal body language

Drawbacks:
Little to no customiseablity
Fewer outfits in total due to needing more indivdual work
Risk of not liking the character based on the look of outfit or growiong fed up with it.

Customiseable outfits
Benefits:
Potentionally more models
More customiseability
The player can choose outfit according to their preference
Visual rewards for progression (new looks "unlocked" by acquiring the armour)

Drawbacks:
Generic body models
Generic animations
More risk for clipping issues since every animation have to be tested for not just every armour but every armour combination

That's all I can think of. Both systems have benefits, both have drawbacks. Neither is inheritely better than the other. The optimal would of course be to have the best of both world by having unique models and great customiseability, but that's a dream of the future I think. In this Bioware has decided to improve companion characterisation (which all of us want I think) by, among other things, make unique bodies (thus outfits). Some of us think it's worth it, some of us don't. That's fine. How well it will play out we can only wait and see.

This.  I'm more on the "Let me customise my companions side" of the fence myself.   But I get the benifits of the new system.  Ultimatly, like a lot of the changes being made, I'll express a degree of dissapointment that a feature I like won't be in the game, but I'm happy to wait until release to make any ultimate judgments.  I didn't like the Mass Effect system, where the only options were mostly color changes.  But looking at the two outfits that I've seen Bethany in, I think that there may be more options this time.  We'll see.

[tmp7704]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Sir JK wrote...
Both systems have benefits, both have drawbacks. Neither is inheritely better than the other.

While I agree in principle DA:O had a number of issues that I think make the new system preferable to the old, you sort of mention them actually.

Leather hats, mage robes. The number of models, while potentially larger was actually pretty small, and in places, hideously ugly, and despite being customisable, you were stuck with them.

Not sure why DA2 is supposed to be preferable here though, since nothing about it guarantees these issues will be gone, or not even worse for this matter -- by worse i mean if you didn't like your mage hats, you could at least not wear them. In DA2 the only way not to see them would be to never bring in the party the character who happens to sport it.

Outfits being "unique and iconic" doesn't mean they won't offend anyone's fashion sense and you won't find some of them hideously ugly just the same. And you will be stuck with them even more.

Modifié par tmp7704, 10 novembre 2010 - 02:16 .

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote...
It's actually somewhat misleading -- certain model/texture combinations in DAO exist in only single copy and can be worn by just one character at any time, if at all. That makes the person sporting one of these particular outfits unique appearance-wise in very much the same manner Morrigan in her robe was, and the companions in DA2 are supposed to be.

That's a cop-out. If all the DA2 characters have 5 recolours of the same look, would you say we gained customization? Blood Dragon Armour was a reskin of all the dwarf armour. All massive armour was one mesh.

If I had Wade's Dragonbone, the Warden Commander Armour and Juggernaut, then my companions all are wearing the same thing.



Look at that unique look! You can totally see how the gigantic shoulder pads on the warden are totally different from the gigantic shoudler pads on Alistair.

[tmp7704]

In Exile wrote...

That's a cop-out. If all the DA2 characters have 5 recolours of the same look, would you say we gained customization? Blood Dragon Armour was a reskin of all the dwarf armour. All massive armour was one mesh.

Well, when you consider ME2 team did apparently see giving outfit different tint here and there as creating brand new look and good enough reward for a quest ... yes, having choice between 5 different textures would be quite definitely a step up from being stuck with just single appearance, when it comes to customization. For all the scorn DAO reskins get, they can actually vary quite a bit between one another. And you can see this technique used in large number of games.

Also, not to point out the obvious, but simple recolours of essentially the same outfit do have long-established history as far as "creating unique appearance" goes.

[MerinTB]

tmp7704 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

That's a cop-out. If all the DA2 characters have 5 recolours of the same look, would you say we gained customization? Blood Dragon Armour was a reskin of all the dwarf armour. All massive armour was one mesh.

Well, when you consider ME2 team did apparently see giving outfit different tint here and there as creating brand new look and good enough reward for a quest ... yes, having choice between 5 different textures would be quite definitely a step up from being stuck with just single appearance, when it comes to customization. For all the scorn DAO reskins get, they can actually vary quite a bit between one another. And you can see this technique used in large number of games.

Also, not to point out the obvious, but simple recolours of essentially the same outfit do have long-established history as far as "creating unique appearance" goes.

Game.
Set.
Match.
QED

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote...
Well, when you consider ME2 team did apparently see giving outfit different tint here and there as creating brand new look and good enough reward for a quest ... yes, having choice between 5 different textures would be quite definitely a step up from being stuck with just single appearance, when it comes to customization. For all the scorn DAO reskins get, they can actually vary quite a bit between one another. And you can see this technique used in large number of games.

What the ME2 did was irrelevant. They gave you one costume per character with a reskin. The DA:O reskin is just that - a reskin. It does not count as a unique item. Only the mesh does.

So while it is a step up from a single appearance, it`s not a step up from a unique appearance, and this category shift hides the critical point at issue.

Also, not to point out the obvious, but simple recolours of essentially the same outfit do have long-established history as far as "creating unique appearance" goes.

You're going to have to point out the obvious. I'm not a comic book fan, and on that first page, I can't see any recolour of the same outfit to create a unique appearance, with the only exception being Venom who was a unique appearance for Spiderman.

[13 dragons]

ya know dont get me wrong i mean stat boosts are good and all but when it came to my allies i think i was much more keen to making them look cool and having myself be in a nice balance of looking good and beung practical

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

In Exile wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
It's actually somewhat misleading -- certain model/texture combinations in DAO exist in only single copy and can be worn by just one character at any time, if at all. That makes the person sporting one of these particular outfits unique appearance-wise in very much the same manner Morrigan in her robe was, and the companions in DA2 are supposed to be.

That's a cop-out. If all the DA2 characters have 5 recolours of the same look, would you say we gained customization? Blood Dragon Armour was a reskin of all the dwarf armour. All massive armour was one mesh.

If I had Wade's Dragonbone, the Warden Commander Armour and Juggernaut, then my companions all are wearing the same thing.



Look at that unique look! You can totally see how the gigantic shoulder pads on the warden are totally different from the gigantic shoudler pads on Alistair.

And yet the rest of the armor parts actually looks different and unique, Massive Armor shoulder pads aside. Gee isn't that something! Which is still far more than DA2 will have with its zero customization when it comes to companions.

[tmp7704]

What the ME2 did was irrelevant. They gave you one costume per character with a reskin. The DA:O reskin is just that - a reskin. It does not count as a unique item. Only the mesh does.

Correct me if i'm wrong but "unique" to me simply means there's only one such appearance in the game. This doesn't require a different mesh -- a red ball and blue ball are both unique balls, if there's only one of each.

It may not count for you personally, but then i'd say you're using a custom definition of unique.

So while it is a step up from a single appearance, it`s not a step up from a unique appearance, and this category shift hides the critical point at issue.

But your question was whether having extra reskins would provide us with extra customization. It said nothing about requirement for these appearances to be unique (although as far as i view the term, as long as they wouldn't be repeated for multiple characters then yes, they would also be unique)

It's possible though i've misread your question -- as i read it, you were asking if giving each of DA2 companions choice of 5 different reskins for their individual mesh would provide customization. Is that what you meant?

You're going to have to point out the obvious. I'm not a comic book fan, and on that first page, I can't see any recolour of the same outfit to create a unique appearance, with the only exception being Venom who was a unique appearance for Spiderman.

Seriously? When the proverbial definition of superhero costume is "skin-tight spandex" and that's good enough to cover 90% of them?

Modifié par tmp7704, 10 novembre 2010 - 04:34 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

I'm sure they'll be "reskins" At 2.99 a pop as DLC. All part of the new milk the end user out of as much money as possible strategy that is so the rage these days.

[In Exile]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...



And yet the rest of the armor parts actually looks different and unique, Massive Armor shoulder pads aside. Gee isn't that something! Which is still far more than DA2 will have with its zero customization when it comes to companions.

Which parts? The female Warden has a different colour, there is a different emblem on the chest, and the little dress thingy in front is slightly longer in her case. Otherwise it's identical. Different would be the difference between Alistair and Wynne.

[Meltemph]

I would not be surprised it we cycle quite frequently between companions, so I doubt the lack of different looking armor for companions is going to be a major thing. I mean, the way the story is being told and with how they are dealing with companions, makes it sound like we won't be holding on to to many companions for significant portions of the game.



Hell if the characters in the wings is any indication, we could be having quite a lot of changing of the guard.