861 réponses à ce sujet

[AtreiyaN7]

The EA Louse thing has been pretty widely discredited (even in the TOR forums where that rant has been linked many, many times). I don't consider it reliable at any rate.

[Meltemph]

Different would be the difference between Alistair and Wynne.

I think the word you are looking for is unique because they are obviously different. The armor model types however are hardly one of a kind.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

[quote]In Exile wrote...


And yet the rest of the armor parts actually looks different and unique, Massive Armor shoulder pads aside. Gee isn't that something! Which is still far more than DA2 will have with its zero customization when it comes to companions.

[/quote]

Which parts? The female Warden has a different colour, there is a different emblem on the chest, and the little dress thingy in front is slightly longer in her case. Otherwise it's identical. Different would be the difference between Alistair and Wynne.

[/quote]

Well they're both massive armor, sure the game could have used more unique art pieces but I still find what DA:O did far better than the ME2/DA2 route of "unique companion clothing! so awesome!11"  Honestly to me it feels like they're slowly stripping out core RPG components just because the casual fans they're now targeting can't be bothered with them. Thats really what bothers me about the whole thing.

[Addai]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

A classical rpg inventory system gives you two things: A fairly obtuse manner of gaining resources and a well divided system of progression and reward. The first, well, nuts to the first frankly. I don't enjoy repetitive tasks with small gains (nuts to mining planets too), I once had a job in data entry and I've had quite enough of that. The second is a lot more complex, but it really doesn't look a lot less divided in DA2 than Origins. You get a  few less slots right? It's not like those boots were doing much anyhow.

As to one of your points, I have a boring desk job, and I still spent literally hours collecting flowers and moving little potion bottles and gems around to decorate my Oblivion house.  Different strokes.

As to the other, it's not really the boots I'm worried about, or the amulet that looks like every other amulet, but the outfit as a whole.  I like to think that I could still choose items that look appropriate on the character, even if it's not what the artists at BioWare envisioned for that NPC.  Because it's me who has to stare at them during my precious free time.  They get paid to stare at them.  So I'd like a little slack.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 novembre 2010 - 04:44 .

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote...
Correct me if i'm wrong but "unique" to me simply means there's only one such appearance in the game. This doesn't require a different mesh -- a red ball and blue ball are both unique balls, if there's only one of each.

It may not count for you personally, but then i'd say you're using a custom definition of unique.

No, we're using the same definition of unique, but we're using a different criteria. A red ball and a blue ball are not unique if they are the same model ball, identical in all respects except their colour.

But your question was whether having extra reskins would provide us with extra customization. It said nothing about requirement for these appearances to be unique (although as far as i view the term, as long as they wouldn't be repeated for multiple characters then yes, they would also be unique)

It's possible though i've misread your question -- as i read it, you were asking if giving each of DA2 companions choice of 5 different reskins for their individual mesh would provide customization. Is that what you meant?

Here is the issue: we are using different values. To say that offering a reskin adds value only works if you actually think there is value in a reskin. It's not an argument that is coherent for my side of the issue, because to us the entire reskin is a non-starter. What I was trying to illustrate with the question was this difference in value and the need for us to appreciate the differences in our positions in this debate.

You pointed out that certain items in DA:O, while having the same mesh, could be unique because of their own skin. You mentioned previously that you wanted to have the ability to swap armour. When I asked about the 5 reskins, I meant relative to DA:O. Dou you think getting to choose between 5 identical apperances with different colours is the same kind of customization as you had in DA:O?

My intuition is that you will say it is not, because you appreciate the difference in flavour a new mesh brought relative to an old one, and my hope was to use that to explain the difference in our position regarding what counts as a unique appearance.

Seriously? When the proverbial definition of superhero costume is "skin-tight spandex" and that's good enough to cover 90% of them?

We can define clothing as ''material covering the naked body'' and say this accurately describes 100% of clothing, but that isn't sufficient to prove all clothing is just a recolour of the same basic design.

[Meltemph]

Honestly to me it feels like they're slowly stripping out core RPG components just because the casual fans they're now targeting can't be bothered with them.

Since when was loot the hardcore aspect of RPGs? I always thought Diablo was the bane on CRPG's in terms of what they focused on, because it turned everyone for a period of time, into loot ****s.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Meltemph wrote...

Honestly to me it feels like they're slowly stripping out core RPG components just because the casual fans they're now targeting can't be bothered with them.

Since when was loot the hardcore aspect of RPGs? I always thought Diablo was the bane on CRPG's in terms of what they focused on, because it turned everyone for a period of time, into loot ****s.

Character customization has always been a fairly present part of D&D type CPRG's for the most part, especially Bioware's.

[In Exile]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Well they're both massive armor, sure the game could have used more unique art pieces but I still find what DA:O did far better than the ME2/DA2 route of "unique companion clothing! so awesome!11"  Honestly to me it feels like they're slowly stripping out core RPG components just because the casual fans they're now targeting can't be bothered with them. Thats really what bothers me about the whole thing.

And this is just self-righteous BS that you're pushing. The whole point of this debate is to show that, shockingly, the side that favours a unique apperance is not doing it out of some straw man ''casual fandom'' but out of a reasoned and justified stance, by using an entirely different standard of identical.

Would I like different outfits for companions? Absolutely. But I want these outfits to be tied to the story and to be unique. If I had a choice between a unique item and a generic item due to basic zot allocation, I choose DA2 over DA:O, because that satisfies my preference. A single apperance with (ostensibly) the same statistical variation as in DA:O is superior.

If Bioware is going to cut the statistical side of inventory, if the actual functional part of the RPG gets cut, then I will be as upset as you are. But right now we are debating a cosmetic difference, and I have different taste than you do. 

You might not have realized it, but the signature you have is actually meant to parody your attitude.

[Meltemph]

Yes, but that loot was never the focal point, at least I never felt it was. I always played Elder Scrolls/Diablo/Champions of Norath and MMO games for my loot junkie fix.

[Maria Caliban]

tmp7704 wrote...

Also, not to point out the obvious, but simple recolours of essentially the same outfit do have long-established history as far as "creating unique appearance" goes.

You picture has a group of characters with.
1) Different body types
2) Different clothing
3) Different patterns

None of the outfits are simply a recoloring of another outfit.

[Daerog]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I'm sure they'll be "reskins" At 2.99 a pop as DLC. All part of the new milk the end user out of as much money as possible strategy that is so the rage these days.

Not just these days. At least the ME2 stuff wasn't essential or anything, so it is easily passed, same with new clothing dlc in all games. Same with the Darkspawn Chronicles, that was a sure pass for me.

I just hope there is at least 3 outfits with varying stats. I like the idea of unique models, but the drawback is being unable to easily swap armors in and out, unless the new armor are just reskins or specially tailored armors designed for specific people. I just hope the focus of unique models doesn't create too many bugs or weird situations, like in ME2 where allies in space wore just breathing masks and not actual space suits. Same model is fine to me, but if BW believes this will make the game look/work better, then I will see how it goes. Not great in ME2, but could work great in DA2.

Hope to learn more soon.

[Wicked 702]

It all comes back to the same argument. Apparently we can't have both, so the "unique" people are just happy they got theirs. I think that's a fairly dumb stance, seeing as how next time you might be the one that's SOL and then we'll be going through this whole song and dance again. Why can't we just band together and ask for both options?

[Meltemph]

It all comes back to the same argument. Apparently we can't have both, so the "unique" people are just happy they got theirs. I think that's a fairly dumb stance, seeing as how next time you might be the one that's SOL and then we'll be going through this whole song and dance again. Why can't we just band together and ask for both options?

I'm pretty sure there are a lot like me who are fine with either/or until we can get both. Not everyone is going to feel SOL because they didn't get what they wanted, exactly. I like the idea of a distinct unique look and I also like being able to be a loot **** at the same time. However I don't feel any compulsion to choose one over the other.

Modifié par Meltemph, 10 novembre 2010 - 05:00 .

[MerinTB]

In Exile wrote...



You're going to have to point out the obvious. I'm not a comic book fan, and on that first page, I can't see any recolour of the same outfit to create a unique appearance, with the only exception being Venom who was a unique appearance for Spiderman.

Ok, wow...  let's make it simpler for you -

Here's the team X-Factor from the 80's...


Other than body-shape, that incarnation of the team wore almost identical costumes save colors.

and here's the Legion of Super-Heroes from early 2000's...

Design and color on most of those is all that changes as they are full body suits that leave the head fully exposed.  Some variety, but almost all are body socks.

More or less the point is that super-heroes, if you take the logos and colors off of their costumes, are mostly all wearing the same "mesh" if you will, the same type of clothing - neck to foot suits, often including gloves.

Ignoring masks/hoods, and the possibility of boots or belts, all these costumes are identical save symbols and colors -







"Reskinning" the generic body sock has worked wonders for comics for decades.

[In Exile]

Wicked 702 wrote...

It all comes back to the same argument. Apparently we can't have both, so the "unique" people are just happy they got theirs. I think that's a fairly dumb stance, seeing as how next time you might be the one that's SOL and then we'll be going through this whole song and dance again. Why can't we just band together and ask for both options?

Because Bioware will tell us where we can shove it?

The reality is that a unique outfit is zot heavy, because it's a single character unique mesh. Creating a lot of these has incredibly low returns. It adds ''flavour'' to the game in return for a lot of man hours. It's just not worth it.

It's like PC-VO. We can't have silent VO and PC VO combined, because that just costs too much to implement. It might be possible in principle, but not practice.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

In Exile wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Well they're both massive armor, sure the game could have used more unique art pieces but I still find what DA:O did far better than the ME2/DA2 route of "unique companion clothing! so awesome!11"  Honestly to me it feels like they're slowly stripping out core RPG components just because the casual fans they're now targeting can't be bothered with them. Thats really what bothers me about the whole thing.

And this is just self-righteous BS that you're pushing. The whole point of this debate is to show that, shockingly, the side that favours a unique apperance is not doing it out of some straw man ''casual fandom'' but out of a reasoned and justified stance, by using an entirely different standard of identical.

Would I like different outfits for companions? Absolutely. But I want these outfits to be tied to the story and to be unique. If I had a choice between a unique item and a generic item due to basic zot allocation, I choose DA2 over DA:O, because that satisfies my preference. A single apperance with (ostensibly) the same statistical variation as in DA:O is superior.

If Bioware is going to cut the statistical side of inventory, if the actual functional part of the RPG gets cut, then I will be as upset as you are. But right now we are debating a cosmetic difference, and I have different taste than you do. 

You might not have realized it, but the signature you have is actually meant to parody your attitude.

The signature I found funny, I've listened to a few of Yatzee's reviews and usually the guy is a riot. Its hardly self righteous to have the opinion that Bioware is streamlining their titles to try to appeal to a more casual audience to gain more sales, there's plenty of possible evidence of that between ME2 and DA2 to form said opinion.

Personally I don't get the unique clothing desire at all. But then again I find a companion's dialog and actual input into the story/quest what have you, far more character defining than what they're wearing for gear. Where as you obviously value the actual companions clothes as an important aspect. To each their own, but its disappointing that only one side of that is getting what they want in the game, when options are something that would work for everyone. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sir JK wrote...

Benefits:
Unique clothing, makes for a more iconic character

I don't see how that's a "benefit".

In Exile wrote...

Different would be the difference between Alistair and Wynne.

And that's a difference that will be denied us in DA2.  As will the difference between light armour and heavy armour.  Each character will always look the same.  Every time you meet any given character he'll look the same as he did before.  Every time you enter a dungeon your companion will look the same, regardless of context or even his combat role.

Regardless of how much customisation DAO had, DA2 has less.

[In Exile]

MerinTB wrote...

In Exile wrote...



You're going to have to point out the obvious. I'm not a comic book fan, and on that first page, I can't see any recolour of the same outfit to create a unique appearance, with the only exception being Venom who was a unique appearance for Spiderman.

Ok, wow...  let's make it simpler for you -

Here's the team X-Factor from the 80's...


Other than body-shape, that incarnation of the team wore almost identical costumes save colors.

and here's the Legion of Super-Heroes from early 2000's...

Design and color on most of those is all that changes as they are full body suits that leave the head fully exposed.  Some variety, but almost all are body socks.

More or less the point is that super-heroes, if you take the logos and colors off of their costumes, are mostly all wearing the same "mesh" if you will, the same type of clothing - neck to foot suits, often including gloves.

Ignoring masks/hoods, and the possibility of boots or belts, all these costumes are identical save symbols and colors -







"Reskinning" the generic body sock has worked wonders for comics for decades.

...But these are all mooks. Okay, I'm not a comic book fan, so what I know re: comics is Captain America, Spiderman, Superman, Batman, the X-men, Iron Man, and the Hulk. They seem to be the flagship Marvel characters, and they each have their own very unique apperance.

I guess the Legion of Super Heroes is a generic re-skin of each other, but I don't know enough about them to know whether or not they are supposed to be wearing uniform or not. And to be frank, they sound like C-list knockoffs.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

It's like PC-VO. We can't have silent VO and PC VO combined, because that just costs too much to implement. It might be possible in principle, but not practice.

That's just nonsense.  The ability to mute the PC, or even just having distinct audio files by character so we can swap them out for blanks, would not be appreciably more expensive.

BioWare's been very clear that the reason they're not letting us do that is because they don't want us to, not because they can't.

[Wicked 702]

In Exile wrote...

Wicked 702 wrote...

It all comes back to the same argument. Apparently we can't have both, so the "unique" people are just happy they got theirs. I think that's a fairly dumb stance, seeing as how next time you might be the one that's SOL and then we'll be going through this whole song and dance again. Why can't we just band together and ask for both options?

Because Bioware will tell us where we can shove it?

The reality is that a unique outfit is zot heavy, because it's a single character unique mesh. Creating a lot of these has incredibly low returns. It adds ''flavour'' to the game in return for a lot of man hours. It's just not worth it.

It's like PC-VO. We can't have silent VO and PC VO combined, because that just costs too much to implement. It might be possible in principle, but not practice.

Um....no offense but you're contradicting yourself here. Unique outfits ARE what Bioware is doing for DA2 (see the ongoing discussion about our companions). So if it's more resource heavy to do it that way, why is it better (according to you and so many others)?

[In Exile]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
The signature I found funny, I've listened to a few of Yatzee's reviews and usually the guy is a riot. Its hardly self righteous to have the opinion that Bioware is streamlining their titles to try to appeal to a more casual audience to gain more sales, there's plenty of possible evidence of that between ME2 and DA2 to form said opinion.

It's self-righteous to accuse any particular person of being inferior. You didn't accuse Bioware of anything. What you said was:

Honestly to me it feels like they're slowly stripping out core
RPG components just because the casual fans they're now targeting can't
be bothered with them.

You're insulting the audience. It's self-righteous.

And no, saying they don't like them is not the same as they can't be bothered with them.

Personally I don't get the unique clothing desire at all. But then again I find a companion's dialog and actual input into the story/quest what have you, far more character defining than what they're wearing for gear. Where as you obviously value the actual companions clothes as an important aspect. To each their own, but its disappointing that only one side of that is getting what they want in the game, when options are something that would work for everyone. 

You'd be wrong. I don't think clothes are an imporant aspect at all. I think it's a footnote. I just think a unique apperance is a superior one. This is so far down my list of important features it's a little silly I'm arguing it. But I still have an opinion on the subject. For example, I prefer armour to be removed completely in favour of stylish clothing, because I think that once you add in any HP mechanism you've already abandon realism so much that any lip service you give to it in the art style is just silly.

And again - there aren't options that work for everyone. I mean, we just went over how we can't agree whether the massive armour is visually distinct. 

[Dave of Canada]

Dragon Age: Origins.

• Everybody (but Morrigan, who has her own unique look as long as you keep her robe equipped) shares the same model. Qunari, Elves and Dwarves are just resized humans.
• Whenever you switch armor, you simply switch the body type. It'll look identical, just a different color and maybe a cross instead of an eagle.
• No custom animation could be created between characters, Sten - a ferocious fighter from the north who never interacted with humans - would fight exactly like Alistair and have the exact same mannerisms in conversation.

Dragon Age 2.

• Every non-important PC will probably share the same body type, companions will now have their own body types.
• There's no ability to switch armor as the armor is linked to the body type.
• Unique animations can be created for each individual companion as they won't simply be resized humans with the exact same animations.

To follow with the comic book costume analogy:
Origins -


With the ability to change the color of said costumes maybe three or four times.

Dragon Age 2 -


With the ability to change the color of said costumes maybe once or twice.


Myself, I prefer having individual characters. I'd prefer Rhino to act like Rhino rather than Rhino acting like Wolverine but with a Rhino attitude.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
That's just nonsense.  The ability to mute the PC, or even just having distinct audio files by character so we can swap them out for blanks, would not be appreciably more expensive.

BioWare's been very clear that the reason they're not letting us do that is because they don't want us to, not because they can't.

You would still have the dialogue wheel. You would still have scripted action and body language you cannot control. Do you think ME or ME2 would become an RPG by your standard if you played it on mute? If so, why not just do that?

I'm willing to bet it is because you think the paraphrase is broken, regardless of VO.

Wicked 702 wrote...

Um....no offense but you're
contradicting yourself here. Unique outfits ARE what Bioware is doing
for DA2 (see the ongoing discussion about our companions). So if it's
more resource heavy to do it that way, why is it better (according to
you and so many others)?

Because it is unique. There is inherent aesthetic value. And there is no comparative difference in 10 unique items for 10 characters, or 10 generic items for all 10 characters in terms of zots. The problem comes in when you design 4 unique items for 1 character, then another 4 unique item for another characters, giving you 40 unique meshes for 10 characters. That's the cost overrun, and that's why Bioware won't bother to listen. It's why a compromise is unlikely - the cost benefit.

[casedawgz]

Maria Caliban wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Also, not to point out the obvious, but simple recolours of essentially the same outfit do have long-established history as far as "creating unique appearance" goes.

You picture has a group of characters with.
1) Different body types
2) Different clothing
3) Different patterns

None of the outfits are simply a recoloring of another outfit.

Captain America would like a word with US Agent.

[MerinTB]

Maria Caliban wrote...
None of the outfits are simply a recoloring of another outfit.

From that particular picture?

None?

Hmm...

Try standing Deadpool and Spider-Man next to each other.
Stand Firestar next to Stature, and ignore that their goggles are different designs.
Take Cap's boots and gloves off, Daredevil's boots and gloves off, and stand them next to each other.
Take off their boots, stand Hawkeye next to Wolverine.

I could keept going.

The costumes are 60-90% identical on most of them.  You have some stand-outs (mostly women like Elektra and Emma Frost) but, other than a necklase of teeth here or a different style of boots there, their costumes are almost all exactly the same style.

Bodysuit.

(Probably cause most of them are designed by Reed Richards from Unstable Molecules...)

I know they are hard to see in the background, but the X-Men Academy are there (Surge, Prodigy, etc) and they have school unifroms on with minor color or symbol differences.
Line up Sue, Johnny and Reed, for that matter - and see the IDENTICAL costumes (you'd think "his or hers" but, again, one costume - the Unstable Molecules form-fit.)