861 réponses à ce sujet

[MerinTB]

In Exile wrote...
...But these are all mooks. Okay, I'm not a comic book fan, so what I know re: comics is Captain America, Spiderman, Superman, Batman, the X-men, Iron Man, and the Hulk. They seem to be the flagship Marvel characters, and they each have their own very unique apperance.

I guess the Legion of Super Heroes is a generic re-skin of each other, but I don't know enough about them to know whether or not they are supposed to be wearing uniform or not. And to be frank, they sound like C-list knockoffs.

Mooks?

Wow.

Okay, X-Factor are the original five X-Men that Stan Lee created.  Cyclops, Marvel Girl, etc.  Been in a few cartoons, movies, and comics for the last, oh, 40 years.

Blue Beetle is a character that has existed longer than the X-Men, has had at least 3 different people play the role, and is who the character Nite Owl in Watchmen is based on.  He's been in the Justice League, had his own book several times, been in numerous cartoons...

Apollo is part of The Authority, about as "best selling" and "critically acclaimed" as Image/Wildstorm gets.

Green Lantern's a mook?  Uhm, one of the orignal DC character concepts (Alan Scott, not Hal, but still), space cops that predate the Jedi (though not the Lensmen)... founding member of the Justice League.  In countless comics, cartoons, Ryan Reynolds is going to play him in the upcoming Green Lantern movie....

Spider-Man is in there.

Invincible is one of the best selling independent comic book characters ever (probably not Spawn numbers at his height, but still.)  Created by Robert Kirkman, he of Walking Dead (and Battle Pope) fame.

Gravity is a creation of Sean McKeever, intended for younger Marvel audience, but has been all over the place.  He's probably the least "A-list" of the crew, but he's been active in comics since 2005 and if you had your own title comic at Marvel you are usually someone.

I purposefully picked characters from multiple comic companies spanning decades to prove a point - I could have just tossed up a whole mess of Claremont/Byrne characters, or all the "Superman-esque" DC characters, and said "ha!" but that would be only looking at one artist or time period.

As for the Legion of Super-Heroes.  C-List?  They were first created in 1958.  They were Superboy's friends.  They've been in tv shows (like Smallville) and cartoons (Justice League Unlimited), had their own cartoon even.  They are a pretty big thing in the DCU.  Any team that's had an almost ongoing title, usually two titles at once, for over 50 years is no C-List team.

[addiction21]

casedawgz wrote...

Irrelevant. They're both still in action. Wearing the same duds. It doesn't matter if one was originally intended as a derivative of the other.

They brought Steve Rogers back to life? What a shocker... Just for once it would be nice for a Iconic hero to just die and stay dead.


Wait a minute? Whats going on in here again?

[RosaAquafire]

I prefer companions that look unique, especially as far as body type goes, to being able to dress them up in the same 4 ugly gear models. Body type is the biggest thing here. I love how thick and bootylicious Isabela looks. If she could wear Bethany's gear, and Bethany could wear hers, they'd need to share a rig.



BW can't take the time to make Isabela's body in every single piece of gear, not to mention then turn around and do it for all the rest of the main characters.



Who else loves Aveline having her big, manly arms? I wouldn't trade that to be able to put her in different clothes, especially when in DA:O at least, all gear looked almost exactly the same, and quite generic at that.



Beside, there isn't really much CHOICE at all. What if I like Leliana in her chanty outfit? I don't really have the OPTION to leave her in it at all, unless I want to gimp myself. I HAVE to put her in generic, terrible roman solider leather, the only piece of which looks appreciably different is the dalish set.



I love old CRPGS. I love DA:O like my dear child and there are a lot of things about DA2 I'm wary about. This isn't one of them.



Bring on my characters looking like distinct people, and not just members of the faceless legion.

[Dave of Canada]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

That could easily be fixed by giving Morrigan the default female body.

I think most Morrigan fans would rip their hair out should the Morrigan robe not exist.

The proportions were all different.  It was a different mesh.

I'll look for it but I remember reading a big thread about how every single model was just resized, it actually made sense and it explained the "gorilla" arms that people hate about dwarves. It also makes sense considering everybody is the same.

[casedawgz]

addiction21 wrote...

casedawgz wrote...

Irrelevant. They're both still in action. Wearing the same duds. It doesn't matter if one was originally intended as a derivative of the other.

They brought Steve Rogers back to life? What a shocker... Just for once it would be nice for a Iconic hero to just die and stay dead.


Wait a minute? Whats going on in here again?

Agent's been around since the 80s. When Rogers died, Bucky became the new Cap. Rogers is alive again, but I think Bucky is still the new Cap.

[MerinTB]

Dave of Canada wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
"Reskinning" the generic body sock has worked wonders for comics for decades.

But do each comic have to do individual animations and such?

No, the comic book artist just has to draw each figure by hand each time they appear.

There tends to be lots of repeats of body shape and proportions as a result, as comic book artists are under deadlines to produce rapidly.

Once the animators have a mesh, they just make continued software calls to said mesh.

The comic book artist can just keep cutting and pasting the same image.  He or she has to draw it every time.

Bad attempt, IMO.

[tmp7704]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Actually, those characters are supposed to represent Sten / Alistair / Oghren. Though I guess you'd make a wild assumption.

In my game Sten would wear heavy armour, Alistair massive armour and Oghren dwarven armour... that's a different mesh each. So yeah, that picture isn't exactly representative for DAO, or at least not representative for everyone.

The DA2 on the other hand is representative, since every single each of us will be stuck with our companion characters wearing their iconic armour.

Modifié par tmp7704, 10 novembre 2010 - 05:40 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Not to the extent ME had. ''Time to shut you up'' in DA:O did not result in you punching someone in the face. You say that with the paraphrase, you can get away from it by removing the line as said. The problem is that the wheel incorporates action with the paraphrase. That you remove the spoken dialogue does not remove the posibility that the associated action (or lack thereof) you build into your character concept would still be overrun.

Granted.  But...

That presupposes the only conflict you can have is with the spoken line of the PC.

No.  It only presupposes that there is a possible conflict with the spoken line, and my solution eliminates that conflict.

But ME and ME2 include actions with what Shepard does, even without the interrupt. Sometimes, these actions can break character.

Yes, and that's also a problem, but it's not one I can fix cheaply.

Not to mention that this solution only works for your idiosyncratic style - for this to even be a compromise, it would have to be the case for Bioware that fans of silent VO do not want full sentences in absence of VO, but only rough statements & cues.

Given the existence of the subtitle files, I also don't think full text options would be a huge problem to implement, and I expect to see those in a mod fairly shortly after release.  But I wasn't specifically addressing that problem.  I was addressing the problem with the VO and paraphrase system, and all I need to do that is to mute the PC VO in combination with other features that are already in the game.

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote...
I'm equally ignorant when it comes to comics, but that series of images had Spiderman and Green Lantern and that's two separate, large franchises.

When it comes to outfits even the people you list have extremely similar outfit shapes, with most of them having 1-2 minor details setting them apart if that. Oh and there's option of cape or not.

Now, if such minor details in shape are sufficient to deem them different then i suppose it's fine. But then i must say this would come as surprising contrast to approach you have when it comes to difference in textures.

Here we have Spiderman, then Captain America, Superman, Batman and Ironman. To me, it looks only like Batman and Superman can reasonably count as a reskin of each other.

A comic has lots of avenues to visually distinguish one character from the other. Batman and Superman can be set apart just by doing one comic in noir. But we can't do the same with all characters within DA2.



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http://www.historygu...n_beats_cap.jpg


 

[In Exile]

casedawgz wrote...
Irrelevant. They're both still in action. Wearing the same duds. It doesn't matter if one was originally intended as a derivative of the other.

No, dude, one guy stole the custom of the other guy. It wasn't intended as a derivative; it's supposed to be the same custome.

[Onyx Jaguar]

That is one epic post

[Dave of Canada]

MerinTB wrote...

Bad attempt, IMO.

I didn't mean it like that. I meant more that does a cartoonist or whatever those people want to call themselves now have to do animations that represent each characters? No, they draw their character in a pose and can draw it in whatever pose they want. They don't tell an animator "DO THIS!".

Though it's hilarious how you're going "BAD ATTEMPT" or something at everything, feeling a little hostile?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I think most Morrigan fans would rip their hair out should the Morrigan robe not exist.

Where did I say they should scrap the unique garment?

I said they should give Morrigan the default body.  They can dress that body however they'd like, but clearly putting that garment on a unique body produces a dichotomy people didn't like.

I'll look for it but I remember reading a big thread about how every single model was just resized, it actually made sense and it explained the "gorilla" arms that people hate about dwarves. It also makes sense considering everybody is the same.

Regardless how the different models were created, there's no disputing that they are different.  The dwarves have gorilla arms, as you just pointed out (I liked the gorilla arms, by the way).  Just try putting the same texture files on human and dwarf females.

[Dave of Canada]

tmp7704 wrote...

In my game Sten would wear heavy armour, Alistair massive armour and Oghren dwarven armour... that's a different mesh each. So yeah, that picture isn't exactly representative for DAO, or at least not representative for everyone.

I could've taken a dozen or more pictures for each armor type but I didn't see the point, let's just assume it's heavy armor. It doesn't change the fact that if you make that character wear that armor, it'll make them look exactly the same but with just a different head.

[casedawgz]

In Exile wrote...

casedawgz wrote...
Irrelevant. They're both still in action. Wearing the same duds. It doesn't matter if one was originally intended as a derivative of the other.

No, dude, one guy stole the custom of the other guy. It wasn't intended as a derivative; it's supposed to be the same custome.

He wore the blue suit for a little while until the real Cap reclaimed it. So for a while he wore the traditional blue suit. When the jig was up, he made the derivative grey suit. The grey suit you see US Agent in was never worn by Captain America.

[Dave of Canada]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Where did I say they should scrap the unique garment?

I said they should give Morrigan the default body.  They can dress that body however they'd like, but clearly putting that garment on a unique body produces a dichotomy people didn't like.

Oh, I misunderstood. Apologies. I took it since the robe was attached to the unique body then to scrap it (both) altogether.

Regardless how the different models were created, there's no disputing that they are different.

With height and width, and the deformities that happen when you mess with both, you have a point.

[tmp7704]

Dave of Canada wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

In my game Sten would wear heavy armour, Alistair massive armour and Oghren dwarven armour... that's a different mesh each. So yeah, that picture isn't exactly representative for DAO, or at least not representative for everyone.

I could've taken a dozen or more pictures for each armor type but I didn't see the point, let's just assume it's heavy armor. It doesn't change the fact that if you make that character wear that armor, it'll make them look exactly the same but with just a different head.

But Dave, you miss the point. Which was, your portrayal of DAO has all three characters in the same class of armour, while they could actually wear different class of armour each. Which would make them very much as different shape-wise as what you were trying to show with the DA2 version.

And if in order to show all the possible variations you'd have to make dozen or more pictures just to cover these combinations... then it very much makes the point how DAO provided more potential variety when it came to looks. Since for DA2 that single picture you made covers our whole range of options.

[MerinTB]

In Exile wrote...

casedawgz wrote...
Irrelevant. They're both still in action. Wearing the same duds. It doesn't matter if one was originally intended as a derivative of the other.

No, dude, one guy stole the custom of the other guy. It wasn't intended as a derivative; it's supposed to be the same custome.

Don't speak on things you don't know.

Steve Rogers quit the role of Captain America due to no wanting to follow government orders back well over a decade ago (I think it was either late 80's or early 90's), and John Walker was picked to be the next Captain America.  Making him the SIXTH Captain America, not second.

Steve don a suit calling himself The Captain.  The suit that, after Steve reclaimed the role of Captain America, John Walker then took to become U.S. Agent.

John stole nothing.  The US Government, which technically created the Captain America role and "owned" it, gave it to Walker.  It then gave a variation on "The Captain" outfit to Walker.

He didn't "steal it" and he didn't wear a costume he found ditched in th trash.  It was a similar design, but not exact, and it was made by different people and given to him.

Nice try, though.

[casedawgz]

MerinTB wrote...

In Exile wrote...

casedawgz wrote...
Irrelevant. They're both still in action. Wearing the same duds. It doesn't matter if one was originally intended as a derivative of the other.

No, dude, one guy stole the custom of the other guy. It wasn't intended as a derivative; it's supposed to be the same custome.

Don't speak on things you don't know.

Steve Rogers quit the role of Captain America due to no wanting to follow government orders back well over a decade ago (I think it was either late 80's or early 90's), and John Walker was picked to be the next Captain America.  Making him the SIXTH Captain America, not second.

Steve don a suit calling himself The Captain.  The suit that, after Steve reclaimed the role of Captain America, John Walker then took to become U.S. Agent.

John stole nothing.  The US Government, which technically created the Captain America role and "owned" it, gave it to Walker.  It then gave a variation on "The Captain" outfit to Walker.

He didn't "steal it" and he didn't wear a costume he found ditched in th trash.  It was a similar design, but not exact, and it was made by different people and given to him.

Nice try, though.

You are correct. I realize that my above post countering the post you were countering is also incorrect. It's been so very long. I feel like I've let the Captain down. I think I'm thinking of when Falcon wore the suit.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Nice try



Cool story

[upsettingshorts]

tmp7704 wrote...
But Dave, you miss the point. Which was, your portrayal of DAO has all three characters in the same class of armour, while they could actually wear different class of armour each. Which would make them very much as different shape-wise as what you were trying to show with the DA2 version.

And if in order to show all the possible variations you'd have to make dozen or more pictures just to cover these combinations... then it very much makes the point how DAO provided more potential variety when it came to looks. Since for DA2 that single picture you made covers our whole range of options.

Wait, are you saying that in order for all the choices of DA:O to be represented there'd have to be screenshots of Leliana in heavy and massive armor, and Alistair in light armor?

Yeah, I'm not buying that.  

Edit: Still, I'm more interested in finding out what the nature of companion outfit changes (in terms of appearance, I can pretty much figure out the whole upgrade thing) in DA:2 are.  The rarity of them and how they work and so on.  I'm well past interested in debating the relative pros and cons of the new system.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 10 novembre 2010 - 05:58 .

[MerinTB]

In Exile wrote...
Here we have Spiderman, then Captain America, Superman, Batman and Ironman. To me, it looks only like Batman and Superman can reasonably count as a reskin of each other.

You take away the cape, boots and gloves - and Captain America, Superman, and Batman are all in skintight outfits.  And usually have remarkably similar height and build.

You can find comic book characters who look nothing alike - like taking a tech guy like Stark and comparing him to a spandex guy like the Flash and say "Different!" but you are nitpicking and ignoring the point.

THe point being that, more often than not, super-hero costumes are identical save colors and symbols.

There are differences, yes, but they stand out.  Most heroes don't like like Iron Man, Hulk, or Big Barda...

but many, many of them look like Superman or Spider-Man.

Modifié par MerinTB, 10 novembre 2010 - 05:57 .

[tmp7704]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Where did I say they should scrap the unique garment?

I said they should give Morrigan the default body.  They can dress that body however they'd like, but clearly putting that garment on a unique body produces a dichotomy people didn't like.

Funnily enough Morrigan does have "the default body" as it is. It's just outfit they put on it that's different, but the general form underneath isn't different in proportions from what they used as reference for other armours -- it matches very closely the outlines of regular mage robes, for example.

If there's dichotomy it's because there's no single "default body" to speak of -- or at least some armours add extra padding here and there, or cut some corners.

[Dave of Canada]

tmp7704 wrote...

But Dave, you miss the point. Which was, your portrayal of DAO has all three characters in the same class of armour, while they could actually wear different class of armour each. Which would make them very much as different shape-wise as what you were trying to show with the DA2 version.

And if in order to show all the possible variations you'd have to make dozen or more pictures just to cover these combinations... then it very much makes the point how DAO provided more potential variety when it came to looks. Since for DA2 that single picture you made covers our whole range of options.

But they can all look alike quite easily, considering:
Wynne and Morrigan will always have recolored robes (assuming you don't make them arcane warriors).
Leliana and Zevran will always have the recolored leather armor (unless for some reason you decide to go for higher class armor)
Sten / Oghren / Alistair (Loghain) will always wear heavy / massive or whatever it is you find.

If you make Leliana / Zevran / Wynne / Morrigan wear anything than their "class standard" armor, then you just up them up on the list and lose on more "unique" models.

It's not much different, the difference being (assuming there's an alternate costume for everybody):
Wynne would have her unique look different than Morrigan, a recolor of the model that nobody matched.
Morrigan would have her unique look different from Wynne, a recolor... ect.
Leliana.
Zevran.
Sten.
Oghren.
Alistair.
Loghain.


Everybody here has an individual armor and an alternate one, this leads to 16 individual models for each companion. They stand out in a crowd, they can have their own unique models (Sten for example could appear buffer with scars and such all over his body to show him as a hardened soldier).

With Origins system, assuming there's four (I could also use 6, that leads to 30 and still isn't very much of an improvement) recoloring of every armor type (Robe / Light / Medium / Heavy / Massive). This would lead to around 20 unique looks for every character in the game, including bandits / guards and such. They'd all appear identical and all fit in the same armor (since it isn't really armor but a body model).

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 10 novembre 2010 - 06:05 .

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Wait, are you saying that in order for all the choices of DA:O to be represented there'd have to be screenshots of Leliana in heavy and massive armor, and Alistair in light armor?

Yeah, I'm not buying that.  

I had Leliana run around in heavy armour (the elven armour set uses heavy armour mesh) True story. When you consider one of most popular modded armours for Leliana (armour of the Devout) uses heavy armour mesh too, it's even more plausible.

Alistair in light armour? Sure. if you put him in role of dps rather than tank (meaning he isn't supposed to get hit) then light armour actually provides multiple benefits -- you get less fatigue penalty and enemies don't target him first, but instead focus on the guy in massive armour who actually is supposed to get that attention. A win-win.