861 réponses à ce sujet

[Onyx Jaguar]

Its probably fluoridated by the man to keep us down

[Dave of Canada]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Its probably fluoridated by the man to keep us down

I never tried that flavor.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Well just know that it tastes communist and that is how they get us to be complacent to new regulations like this inventory system.



I try to keep my liquids free of fluoridation AT ALL TIMES

[Merced652]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Its probably fluoridated by the man to keep us down

I never tried that flavor.

Fooled me. :innocent:

[upsettingshorts]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Well just know that it tastes communist and that is how they get us to be complacent to new regulations like this inventory system.

I try to keep my liquids free of fluoridation AT ALL TIMES

But do you deny women your essence?

[Onyx Jaguar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Well just know that it tastes communist and that is how they get us to be complacent to new regulations like this inventory system.

I try to keep my liquids free of fluoridation AT ALL TIMES

But do you deny women your essence?

Better to be safe than risk communist influence!

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Shouldn't the player be the one to decide that?

I unequivocally think so.

No. Isabella should decide. She is her own person, after all.

If I'm in control of Isabela, those two options are both the same thing.

And if I'm not in control of Isabela, what is her purpose within the game?

Meltemph wrote...

Depends on the story and the role of the companions, I would say.  Also, if we are going to be changing companion equipment, I want it to feel like it is "their" equipment and not just some random outfit that happens to also fit them.

It is their equipment.  It's their equipment because I say so.

One time I play through DAO and Leliana chooses light armour, while the next time I play through DAO Leliana chooses heavy armour.  And each time, the armour suits her because she's different each time.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

On the other hand, in KoTOR II, there
were facts about your character's past that were central to the story
but you did not know about and could not know about. The worst of which is Kreia's whole argument that you turned away from Malachor V because of fear.

I also hated this about KotOR2.

Either I wasn't in control of my character (I didn't know his past, and I didn't know his personality), or I was (Kreia was an unreliable narrator) but then the entire plot made zero sense.

KotOR2 was a profoundly bad game.

In Exile wrote...

Here is a perfect example in DA:O

At Ostagar, the darkspawn attack the combined might of Ferelden and the vanguard of the Grey Wardens. The following things happen:

• Archers release a volley of arrows on the darkspawn
• Each arrow is a 1-hit kill against a darkspawn it makes contact against - this is as it was in reality
• Dogs of war are released
• The dogs can be killed by a single sword thrust; several are cut open charging
• Cailan is grasped by an ogre
• When he ogre crushes him, his body behaves as a natural one; his entire body is crushed
• Duncan experiences fatigue; he does not fight as if it he was at the peak of his capacity and collapse
• Duncan dies tired and falls down because he is exausted instead of having reached 0 HP

At the tower of Ishal, the following can happen:

• An ogre grabs Alistar; he hits him repeatedly with his first and throws him away
• Alistair is not hurt or tired (loses some HP)
• Alistair and the Warden are hit by a giant rock
• Alistair and the Warden are not hurt or incapacitated

Most importantly, the following happens:

• While climbing the tower of Ishal, darkspawn archers can fire on your Warden
• Depending on the build, you can take tens of arrows
• In the cutscene after lighting the beacon, three darkspawn arrows almost kill you

This is why cutscenes are bad.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

I'm not arguing it decracts from the realism. I'm just arguing that it's very clearly operating on a different principle. HP mechanics, leveling up, stat improvement from items, etc. are all "game" features that the characters in the game don't actually believe are real properties of the world.

I have to say, this is one of the areas where your lack of tabletop experience badly harms your impression of a mechanic.

HP made more sense in tabletop games because there was a lot more going on in a combat round that was represented statistically.  It made even more sense if you created an endurance/fatigue mechanic to go with it (allowing diminishing combat performance as the encounter progressed).

[upsettingshorts]

That being said, I'd love for morale and (more significant) fatigue to be simulated in battle. If it works for the Total War series...

It'd add more depth and complexity to combat.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 novembre 2010 - 07:36 .

[Vaeliorin]

In Exile wrote...

Vaeliorin wrote...
I like dark and tragic, and I've never been a huge follower of Star Wars as a setting (the only one of the prequels I've seen is Phantom Menace.)  So taking a hammer to the setting doesn't bother me (especially since George Lucas does it on a regular basis and I think the setting is kind of juvenile to begin with.)  And I really didn't feel my character was any more derailed in KOTOR2 than it was in KOTOR1 when they told me that I'd used to be this completely different person whose personality was antithetical to my own (and then I wasn't allowed to be particularly upset about who I'd been...kind of like Shepard doesn't seem to care that he's been resurrected, coincidentally...hmm...)

I don't find KoTOR II to be dark and tragic so much as... overtly concerned with hitting you over the head with this "reinvention" of the setting.

Dark and tragic was your description, not mine.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

I didn't really think it was hitting you over the head with the "reinvention" of the setting, so much as it was trying to tell a story that wasn't really typical for the setting.  I'd be willing to bet that the writers at Obsidian didn't really want to make a Star Wars game, but when given the opportunity to make a Star Wars game, you don't say no, because even if it sucks it's going to be a cash cow (or at least that was the case before the prequels.)

Regarding the derailment, in KoTOR I you can make the plausible argument you are an entirely new person with the mutilation of Revan. How your character reacts to this revelation, and if you character actually tends more
toward the dark side or not or whatever, is up to you.

It isn't, really, though.  It's another instance of an RPG glossing over your character's reaction to something that would probably be somewhat controversial to include in a mass-market game.  Honestly, the idea that something like that could happen to a person, and they wouldn't have some sort of breakdown upon finding out about it is a little bit beyond my comprehension.

On the other hand, in KoTOR II, there were facts about your character's past that were central to the story but you did not know about and could not know about. The worst of which is Kreia's whole argument that you turned away from Malachor V because of fear.

Just because she argues that doesn't mean she's right.  Regardless, I'm not arguing that KOTOR2 is perfect, simply that I think that the story that it tells is a much more compelling one (to me) than the story of KOTOR1.

In Exile wrote...

Vaeliorin wrote...
If Isabella should decide...shouldn't she also complain if I use her as a tank even if she isn't properly equipped for it?  Or if I bring a non-balanced party such that she's put in more jeopardy than she should be?  Shouldn't she refuse to run into a party of enemies all by herself?

It just seems that drawing the line at what she wears seems kind of strange to me, when there are things that are much more significant that she should potentially have an issue with.

No, because there is a distinction between "story" Isabella and "gameplay" Isabella. Put another way, insofar as actual combat is concerned we are in some kind of special metaphysical reality where an entirely different sort of law of nature applies than when we are experiencing the story via dialogue and so on. Parf of this comes from the obvious logical inconsistency of how easily someone is hurt - to take the DA:O example, an Ogre can smush Cailan like a bug in two hands, but Alistair can get repeatedly punched, thrown, hit, kicked, stabbed etc. but not even break a bone. HP introduces a special separate reality.

"Story" can constrain "gameplay" insofar as it may determine certain traits and abilities a character has. But once we cross into the metaphysical state of combat, all bets are off. Bodies no longer react to blows as they did; injuries are nothing; death is irrelevant; characters change from living beings to puppets; the player becomes an omnipotent controller who can physically move his companions instead of a separate person.

Personally, I think that that distinction is a failure on the part of the developers.  The world shouldn't change based on whether you're in combat or a cutscene.  The cutscenes, story and gameplay should all be based upon the rules of the world that are determined beforehand.  So yes, I don't think Cailan should have died so easily.  Perhaps the ogre should have hurled him into a cluster of darkspawn who would all swarm him under.  Or they should have done like they did with Duncan and cut away.

The fact of the matter is, I don't really care about the appearance of the companions.  They could pull a JRPG and have them always look the same regardless of equipment and it wouldn't particularly bother me.  I care about the functionality, and where in a case like Isabella it might make sense to restrict her (after all, she is the duelist) in other cases, it makes no sense whatsoever (take a character like Sighrun, who I had dressed in armor ranging from light to massive on different playthroughs, none of which in any way contradicted her character.  Or restricting Leliana to archery, which only makes sense based on a single item in the game and is, in fact, contradicted by her prequel story.)

Regardless, the classes in DA2 are apparently already so restrictive that there probably isn't much point to trying to build a character that differs from stereotype anyway.

Modifié par Vaeliorin, 11 novembre 2010 - 07:38 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That being said, I'd love for morale and (more significant) fatigue to be simulated in battle. If it works for the Total War series...

It'd add more depth and complexity to combat.

I've been asking for morale for years.  And overbearing.  I was hugely disappointed that neither BG nor NWN even tried to implement D&D's overbearing rules.

Fatigue would probably have too steep a learning curve if it were done well.  It would have to allow the character to choose to pace himself, or not, and face the consequences later.

[upsettingshorts]

I'm not sure how it would work in a CRPG. I know the effect it has in an RTS though.

In Starcraft (at least 1, I haven't played 2) and other games like it, you can send wave after wave of units to their certain demise and they'll happily keep following your orders and never lose an ounce of fighting effectiveness.

In TW they'll catch on, and rout. Fear is contagious, as well, so you can't just say "Oh well there goes the left flank" - your troops see it too and aren't exactly encouraged to know their flanks aren't protected, lose confidence, and don't fight as hard. Likewise if they see their comrades charging an enemy force and getting massacred, they gain fear of the enemy and lose confidence in their commander. Morale drops again.

So maybe in a CRPG if one member of the party drops, the others lose morale. Or if they're surrounded (flanked) by enemies. Or just fighting at high fatigue for long bursts... I'm dunno how it would be triggered.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 novembre 2010 - 07:45 .

[Vaeliorin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
That being said, I'd love for morale and (more significant) fatigue to be simulated in battle. If it works for the Total War series...

It'd add more depth and complexity to combat.

The only problem with this is that if it morale/fatigue changes combat effectiveness (it's said I had to rephrase that sentence so many times because I can never keep effect/affect straight) you end up with a death spiral.  It's a common problem in games that have penalties based on wounds/fatigue/etc., in that whoever hits first almost invariably wins a fight, because the penalties make it impossible to make a comeback.  The only real way to counter this is to make the penalties so minor that you might as well not even have them.

That said, my favorite game does actually have a fatigue system.  Instead of applying penalties, however, it's basically an either/or.  If your fatigue reaches 0, you fall unconscious.  However, there are spells/items that can restore fatigue, so it's something of a balancing act.  It does add a nice bonus in that some monsters are more easily defeated by depleting their fatigue (rendering them unconscious and easy to hit/damage) than simply trying to take out their health.

Modifié par Vaeliorin, 11 novembre 2010 - 07:49 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

So maybe in a CRPG if one member of the party drops, the others lose morale. Or if they're surrounded (flanked) by enemies. Or just fighting at high fatigue for long bursts... I'm dunno how it would be triggered.

Tabletop games give us a good starting point.

Morale checks got made each round, and there were penalties assigned for things like party-member killed, reduced below 10% HP, damaged for more than 25% of total HP in a single attack, unable to damage target - things like that.

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

So maybe in a CRPG if one member of the party drops, the others lose morale. Or if they're surrounded (flanked) by enemies. Or just fighting at high fatigue for long bursts... I'm dunno how it would be triggered.

Tabletop games give us a good starting point.

Morale checks got made each round, and there were penalties assigned for things like party-member killed, reduced below 10% HP, damaged for more than 25% of total HP in a single attack, unable to damage target - things like that.

Sounds good to me.  I'd throw in "being surrounded" too, as to discourage rushing headlong into an unknown tactical situation and encourage teamwork/organization/sticking together. It'd also make rogues significantly more useful.  In such a game, I don't think I'd ever not use the rogue as an advanced scout.  In DA:O I used whatever I felt like because I never got the impression it mattered too much aside from the relatively rare instances of traps to be disarmed. 

[Aermas]

Fearsome beasts could have an effect too, running into an ogre for the first time should have you crapping your pants.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Right. Being surrounded. Being outnumbered. Facing magic. All of these should be relevant.

[Aermas]

Fighting without armor could/should be a factor

[upsettingshorts]

Chain routs from Total War could work too. In TW if one unit sees another friendly unit rout, its morale plummets. So, assuming each of our companions (as well as the PC*) each has a different threshold for low morale, let's call it "Panic", it makes sense that there will be occasions where one will flee first. Seeing that should be devastating for the morale of everyone else who hasn't broken yet. You're only as strong as your weakest link



* Losing control of your PC because his or her morale took a nose dive would work I imagine, similarly to Fear effects where you simply can't use them. Preferably any characters that routed would make a beeline for the exit and not just randomly run around the room.



To bring it back to the thread topic though, inventory could effect morale too by perhaps raising someone's ability to work through that fear. Knowing you have some really spiffy, heavy armor could add something like "+50% resistance to fear of being surrounded" or similar stats.

[Aermas]

Well seeing the screenshots so far I don't think any of the characters will be wearing actual armor, -->RAGE

[Lotion Soronarr]

Maria Caliban wrote...

From my viewpoint, that you get all these things, and still object to even the *slightest* indication that a companion might not be under your total control is unreasonable. I don't even get the illusion of them being people. Instead, you want to force the player to constantly dress up what the story tells us are grown adults, striping away their individuality so they can wear the same armor that NPC 392 wears.

You mention poor AI yourself. The AI isn't smart enough to equipp the better armor for the job. A smart, sensible individual would.
I don't know how other people play theri party, but my choices of equipment is sensible. It doesn't go contrary to the characters, as I give them weapons that are good with and armor they will NEED.

If they were smart enough to pick and choose useful loot by themselves, I wouldn't mind, But they are not. As such, the player equipping them is hte lesser fo two evils.

Besdies, matching outfits are cool. And te NPC armor 392 might just be an excellent peace of gear.


That said, NPC's refusing to wear something wouldn't bother me. As long as the AI/script determining that worked good.
But there are other people who love combat efficiency above all lese and would go berserk over that. There are people that download modified companions, so they start with completely different attributes/skills. People love to customize after all.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 novembre 2010 - 08:10 .

[Stick668]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That said, NPC's refusing to wear something wouldn't bother me. As long as the AI/script determining that worked good.

So, essentially and in practice indistinguishable from the end result of what they're planning for DA2, then?

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Here is a perfect example in DA:O

At Ostagar, the darkspawn attack the combined might of Ferelden and the vanguard of the Grey Wardens. The following things happen:

• Archers release a volley of arrows on the darkspawn
• Each arrow is a 1-hit kill against a darkspawn it makes contact against - this is as it was in reality
• Dogs of war are released
• The dogs can be killed by a single sword thrust; several are cut open charging
• Cailan is grasped by an ogre
• When he ogre crushes him, his body behaves as a natural one; his entire body is crushed
• Duncan experiences fatigue; he does not fight as if it he was at the peak of his capacity and collapse
• Duncan dies tired and falls down because he is exausted instead of having reached 0 HP

At the tower of Ishal, the following can happen:

• An ogre grabs Alistar; he hits him repeatedly with his first and throws him away
• Alistair is not hurt or tired (loses some HP)
• Alistair and the Warden are hit by a giant rock
• Alistair and the Warden are not hurt or incapacitated

Most importantly, the following happens:

• While climbing the tower of Ishal, darkspawn archers can fire on your Warden
• Depending on the build, you can take tens of arrows
• In the cutscene after lighting the beacon, three darkspawn arrows almost kill you

This is why cutscenes are bad.

[*]What I took away from those examples is that there's a problem with the rules, not the cutscenes. The cutscenes make more sense than the actual gameplay.[*]This is a perpetual problem with RPGs. In Champions, for instance, a handgun bullet couldn't kill a normal person. It'd probably take three shots to do it. This works fine most of the time since the system isn't supposed to be lethal. But there are all sorts of situations where the handgun has to be lethal for the scene to make sense, even comic-book sense.

[Archereon]

Stick668 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That said, NPC's refusing to wear something wouldn't bother me. As long as the AI/script determining that worked good.

So, essentially and in practice indistinguishable from the end result of what they're planning for DA2, then?

Bioware is not renkowed for its enemy/ally AI...

Mass Effect 1 companions are rather weak, and ME2 companions are downright pathetic.  If you could control them though, you'd be golden.