27 réponses à ce sujet

[Korva]

I originally wanted to make an archer rogue for one of my playthroughs, but so far my archery experience with Leliana hasn't been too exciting. Of course, it doesn't help that I have to reserve talent points for her lockpicking since that's the prime reason of having a rogue at all ...

So I wonder. Looking at the rogue talents, most of them seem to benefit melee rogues more than archer rogues. Then you have the dual weapon talents, and 1-2 specializations. How in the Maker's name do you rogue players pick and choose between all that?

16 rogue talents + 12 weapon talents + 4 per specialization. That's 32 which I think is impossible. Do you ignore lockpicking despite it being something only rogues can provide? Do you ignore the Stealth talents? I've peeked at various higher-level rogues' character pages and most players don't seem to pick up Stealth at all.

[Kavita]

my rogue is specced to be best at backstabing as possible, best skills is momentum and coop de grace for speed and dmg. all rogues should have dual weapon master ofc, i have one point in stealth, its fun to stealth around in the fade and use furry on the cloth mages and stun the next one to backstab him to death.

[Gaudion]

Rogues have too many talents to pick up everything, as I'm sure you've realized, so you really need to find an area to focus on.



If you're going for max DPS with a dagger/backstab Rogue, you'll want to be extremely conservative with your talent points since there are a lot of talents that provide boosts and synergies and you want to make sure you get the most out it. That most likely means skipping the Deft Hands Rogue chain, and the Dual Weapon chain beginning with Dual-Weapon Sweep is a poor investment IMO since being an Assassin is all about bursting down single targets one-at-a-time. Dual-Weapon Mastery can be skipped unless you really want the stamina reduction bonus.



Likewise, Duelists can maximize their effectiveness by skipping Stealth and backstab-oriented Rogue talents past Dirty Fighting as well as, again, Deft Hands.

[Korva]

Hm. Skipping the Deft Hand talents really isn't an option for me since that is the only reason to bring/play a rogue, and I don't want two in the group. (Speaking of which, what's with Zevran not having any points in that? It completely disqualifies him from a place in any group of mine.)

[Gaudion]

Then take Deft Hands. Just understand that you're going to have to make allowances from DPS talents somewhere.

Rogues have two general builds they can pursue. One is the "scout" build that provides utility with lockpicking, etc. Leliana is a good example of this, with Improved Tools, her Bard specialization, and Archery talents which don't demand backstab support from the Rogue talents. The other is the pure damage engine, which Zevran is supposed to be.

If you want to get creative, however, and make a Dual Weapon utility Rogue, you'll still do respectable damage. Just understand that you won't be as effective in combat you would be if you poured all of your points into DPS talents for synergy. Make sure the rest of your party can make up the DPS you're not providing and you'll do fine.

Modifié par Gaudion, 13 novembre 2009 - 03:54 .

[LastMurder]

I really don't think you have to make something that isn't utility to make DPS. The primary DPS stat is cunning. I went full Assassin and the sustained duelist and I didn't really have a problem at all with talents (I poured all the tomes into the rogue).



In my opinion, there is no tradeoff between DPS and utility if your main is a rogue.

[Ninjaphrog]

In my opinion, this is the list of power of rogues:



1: Duel wielding Duelist

2: Dagger Wielding Duelist

3: Dagger Wielding Assassin

4: Bow Wielding Ranger

5: Bard

[Gaudion]

LastMurder wrote...

I really don't think you have to make something that isn't utility to make DPS. The primary DPS stat is cunning. I went full Assassin and the sustained duelist and I didn't really have a problem at all with talents (I poured all the tomes into the rogue).

In my opinion, there is no tradeoff between DPS and utility if your main is a rogue.

Did you read this thread? Did you even read the title? Stats aren't the problem; it's talents.

There are 16 Rogue talents, 16 Dual Weapon talents, and up to eight specialization talents. Even if you hunt down every additional talent point available in the game there is absolutely no way you'll be able to amass 40 talent points. Opinion has nothing to do with it; something has to give somewhere.

Utility Rogues can still do respectable DPS, but it's not going to be as high as the DPS of a pure combat Rogue.

Modifié par Gaudion, 13 novembre 2009 - 07:05 .

[LastMurder]

Of course I read it. A lot of the talents are useless. At lvl 17 I got 22 talents and still holding another talent book. There are 12 dual weapon talents, as far as I can see (all very good talents too). In my opinion there are ~24 critical rogue talents, everything else will not affect your dps.

There is no tradeoff between utility and dps for a good rogue build. In fact I could probably drop one or two or maybe even three talents in the device mastery line with all this cunning.

My current talents: 
Full Assassin
Coup de Grace
Mechanical Expertise
Evasion
Dueling
Dual Weapon Expertise
Momentum

Edit2: Perhaps more explanation is required. My party gives fire and ice weapon buffs, and haste. This rogue is dagger, and im using momentum when fighting. The idea is to stack up damage that go off on hits and hit often, and not use abilities since they (in my opinion) lower dps because of slow animations and no procs. Shale has two AOE stuns I use in combat, and my arcane warrior uses mind blast.

Modifié par LastMurder, 13 novembre 2009 - 05:43 .

[Korva]

I really don't care too much about DPS, utility is fun too. I must say I really wish lockpicking wasn't a rogue talent but a skill instead. *sigh* Because as it is, I'd love to play with the stealth talents but can't imagine what I'd drop for them. A rogue without stealth is a a bit sad, but so's a rogue who can't open a lock.

[Whist Darkblade]

in case you all didnt read the game manual which all RESPONSIBLE game owners should do, it says that there is NO HARD LEVEL CAP!.



So Korva, this is what it comes down to. Obviously if you want to max out EVERYTHING it will take ages. So you have to decide what you want more. Lockpick or stealth. Lockpick is rather vital if you want to get all the chests. (im working on a mod tho were you can potentially break open chests, but run the risk of damaging or losing items on the inside). Upper levels of stealth allow you to use abilites and items. Which means you can sneak behind the enemy and lay traps or even use attack abilites.



It just depends on what you want. Of course rogues benifit from increased DPS with the backstab ability. but if you have found the "imperial crossbow" (stolen from merchant in main camp during intro) or "spear thrower" (which is an uber powerfull longbow stolen from an Emissary) then using the rogue as just plainly an archer and lockpicker works so far for me, and the rogue is my main.

[Colma]

for dual wielding, once you get the 36 dex for Dual-Weapon Mastery pour everything in to str and con. My rogue wears the warden commander gear from Soldiers Peak (at level 15) and can tank better than shale and dish out 2x-3x the damage with Starfang and a dragon bone longsword, both in straight melee and backstabbing.
The game tries to get you to think that cunning is so great for rogues, but strength yields MUCH better returns.

My rogue a Duelist/Assassin in nightmare difficulty by the way.

edit: and yeah, for most rogues stealth isn't really useful. In all honesty its more of an role playing choice.

Modifié par Colma, 14 novembre 2009 - 12:51 .

[Whist Darkblade]

lol, nice sig, couldnt agree more. thats pretty good advice. Cant wait till i lvl up

[Korva]

Heavy armor rogue, eh? I've read about those. I think I'll go with daggers, personally, at least once they've patched the Dexterity-bugs. For DPS in heavy armor I have a second warrior planned after this sword&board one.

[Colma]

my heavy armor rogue is just a result from the dexterity bugs really. If I could get crazy damage from sky-high dexterity I would have gone that route...but oh well, nightmare is a joke with his mighty dps-tankness.

[Khimber]

I'm on my first runthrough with a rogue. I had the same problem, which abilitys to take. I went down the stealth line and found it to be very fun (now a level 12 assassin) but it was always extremely frustrating not being able to open chests. I wish the made had an "Open" spell or a warrior could attempt to "Bash" the chest open based on Str. I never found anything other then ordinary loot in any chest that needed to be unlocked and yet I always thought I was missing out on something when I had to leave the area with unlocked chests in it. I think the on poster may be correct in that Stealth is more of a fun skill and not necessary. Once the fighting starts, I rarely went back into stealth mode anyway. Who knows, maybe the lockpick skill can also be classified as a fun skill as well??

[Colma]

I cant remember any jaw dropping items from locked chests myself.

[Ragnarok512]

Take a look at my rogue/assassin if you want a decent build. It may not be the best out there but he can hold his own pretty damn well. I've even seen him deflect arrows with his daggers a few times. And he's able to dodge or block attacks often enough that if he gets cut off from the group he can hold his own until the tank or mage can take some of the heat off of him. The only time he nearly died was when he was dealing with the Genlock Conjurer in Fort Drakon on the way to fight the Archfiend. My favorite party for my Rogue was Alistair (tank), Shale (tank), Wynne (Arcane Warrior spec, just for Combat Magic mainly). But at the end, when you are trying to get to the Archdemon, what I did was swap Shale for Leliana (Archer). My party setup worked pretty damn well against the Archdemon.

[Dr.Slime]

I <3 rogues.

I started to play two days ago and it was obvious to me that I liked rogue class quite a bit. Didn't take long for me to understand the variety of talents, skills and lack of points to be satisfied with class experience playing only one rogue. Some bad judgement calls in the beginning but I solved the problem by having two rogues and didn't end up losing too many points to silly decisions.

Like this, in the long run, I can create two efficient (I hope) characters. I ended up deciding that Lelaine is going to be dual wielding duelist with mastered lock picking, stealing and melee fighting skills supported by some archery. Another rogue is the assassin hired to kill me by Loghain. With him I concentrate on dual wielding assassin class and anything to support dealing damage fast.

Currently I consider adding some trapping abilities to be able stop enemies on their tracks. When stopped, Morrigan could do some nasty damage. Fire ball without friendly fire problems for an example and other area attacks. Like this rogues could shoot some arrows, throw flasks and what not. I am curious to see how this works for me. Currently around level 12-13 with my party and I am not as analytic about this game as many seem to be about damage points and what not. I'll just go with the flow.



Comments?

Modifié par Dr.Slime, 24 novembre 2009 - 09:06 .

[Hahren]

A rogue doesn't need to sacrifice damage for utility or vice versa. You just need some more information to make informed decisions on what to take. Some of the rogue talents work very well with all rogue types, and some are wastes of points. It also depends on your party make up.



You can end the game at level 20+. That's 20 talent pts right there. You gain 4 bonus talents. One is automatic at level 1, and the other 3 come from pivotal game events. There are 2 tomes of physical ability for purchase (3 potentially from an event, and 4 if one of the vendor's glitches restocking all his wares). Going through the game normally you're looking at 24-26 talents.



You don't need your MC rogue to do everything, but you can still get very close to it. As far as dual weapon skills most of them aren't that great if you are using daggers. You don't need the final two passives in dual weapon mastery. If you want to only use daggers dual weapon mastery is a wasted point, but the one that causes bleeds can be nice. You can skip the entire line with dual weapon striking. Riposte is good because the stun out lasts the attack animation, and it can be a nice back up to dirty fighting if you draw attention. However, if you want to backstab let a warrior gain threat first. Then machine gun daggers into their necks. You'll find yourself not using stuns personally to set up combat much. Dual weapon sweep line up to Momentum. Turn on Momentum, and watch damage numbers fly. Use dual weapon sweep when you can hit enough enemies to make it worth while. Flurry is for when you get bored.



A dagger/dagger rogue will want to use cunning for damage. So going for lethality is a priority. Coup De Grace is also great. 3 talents from Assassin, 3 talents from Bard/Duelist will further improve your ability to dish out death. So far that's 16-17 talents that cover combat (5-6 in dual weapon, 2 dirty fighting, 3 below the belt, 3 assassin, 3 bard/duelist). So if 24-26 talents will be earned through out a single play through, you will have some left over points for whatever you want. You can then dabble into deft hands. With a focus on cunning for damage you won't need to max out lockpicking. It will happen from overwhelming ability. You can take the full stealth line. You may still have a few points left to flesh out any other talents you desire.



Combat won't be as flashy, and maybe down right boring, but it's very powerful. If you want more flash to your rogue's fighting then flesh out more of the dual weapon line, but you may need to give up on sneaking etc... I don't dislike dual weapon's flashier talents. I think they have a place especially for warriors, but for the purpose of using daggers most of the abilities are overshadowed by your auto attack potential.

[Trevahhh]

Colma wrote...

for dual wielding, once you get the 36 dex for Dual-Weapon Mastery pour everything in to str and con. My rogue wears the warden commander gear from Soldiers Peak (at level 15) and can tank better than shale and dish out 2x-3x the damage with Starfang and a dragon bone longsword, both in straight melee and backstabbing.
The game tries to get you to think that cunning is so great for rogues, but strength yields MUCH better returns.

My rogue a Duelist/Assassin in nightmare difficulty by the way.

edit: and yeah, for most rogues stealth isn't really useful. In all honesty its more of an role playing choice.

This sounds really interesting. Could you go more in-depth on stat distrbution and, particularly, which talents you picked? Thanks.

[TyrusEndorn]

Dirty Fighting up to Coup de Grace, full Stealth, DW up to Expert(1)/Momentum (3), full Assassin, full Duelist. Once you get those, go for evasion, the rest of DW(1), and Whirlwind unless you want to unlock chests. Cunning to 22, Dex to 36, rest in strength. Axe/Dagger for max backstabbing ownage (The Veshialle and Rose's Thorn both with paralyze/elemental/elemental). Use stealth for an aggro dump and always angle yourself for backstabs. You can use heavy armor but I ended up using the drakescale stuff with juggernaut helm because it looks cool and that's all I really care about.

[Trevahhh]

TyrusEndorn wrote...

Dirty Fighting up to Coup de Grace, full Stealth, DW up to Expert(1)/Momentum (3), full Assassin, full Duelist. Once you get those, go for evasion, the rest of DW(1), and Whirlwind unless you want to unlock chests. Cunning to 22, Dex to 36, rest in strength. Axe/Dagger for max backstabbing ownage (The Veshialle and Rose's Thorn both with paralyze/elemental/elemental). Use stealth for an aggro dump and always angle yourself for backstabs. You can use heavy armor but I ended up using the drakescale stuff with juggernaut helm because it looks cool and that's all I really care about.

Awesome, thanks. I'm assuming this kind of rogue is used as an off-tank, ya? I heard evasion is overkill for that application and I could save myself the talent and stat points for other stuff. Do you think that's true?

[TyrusEndorn]

Yes. I just grabbed evasion (that whole line, actually) because I had extra points at the end due to not investing in lockpicking stuff (I would just breeze through all content a second time for traveler and open stuff with leliana).

edit: remember, for raw damage your best bet is dag/dag with full elemental runes stacking cunning w/ lethality.  After that, the same build but with an axe or sword is best.  My problem with these builds is that they take a while to bloom and don't really have much in the way of utility.  If you aren't backstabbing, you also aren't doing as much damage as most of the appeal comes from the assassin modifier to backstabs via cunning.  Using an axe/dagger w/ paralyze and coup de grace allows you to confront a larger variety of situations and gives you points to ****** on whatever you want to.  You could even invest in arrow of slaying or scattershot if you wanted to use a bow on, say, dragon fights.  Overall it gives you more breathing room to play the game and still offers massive damage, not to mention tankability.

Modifié par TyrusEndorn, 28 novembre 2009 - 10:34 .

[Loki330]

Korva wrote...

I originally wanted to make an archer rogue for one of my playthroughs, but so far my archery experience with Leliana hasn't been too exciting. Of course, it doesn't help that I have to reserve talent points for her lockpicking since that's the prime reason of having a rogue at all ...

So I wonder. Looking at the rogue talents, most of them seem to benefit melee rogues more than archer rogues. Then you have the dual weapon talents, and 1-2 specializations. How in the Maker's name do you rogue players pick and choose between all that?

16 rogue talents + 12 weapon talents + 4 per specialization. That's 32 which I think is impossible. Do you ignore lockpicking despite it being something only rogues can provide? Do you ignore the Stealth talents? I've peeked at various higher-level rogues' character pages and most players don't seem to pick up Stealth at all.

Depends what you're gunning for. Zehvran for example is the backstabby type; he's not too hot in a straight up brawl but if someone keeps them entertained for him or you max his hiding he can just backstab the hell out of stuff.

I went for a very dex oreintated dual weilder (Read: Fencer/dualist type). Didn't bother with stuff like lockpick or feign death, I went for things like dirty fighting coup de'tat, ect and coupled with the dualist abilities (specifically the mantained one that gives an attack and defence bonus) you become pretty good. You'll want some items to help draw aggro off you just in case, but I found myself able to win against almost anything except orange bosses one on one, and killed several ogres on my own without much hassle. And this was without Wynn backing me up.

Modifié par Loki330, 28 novembre 2009 - 03:48 .