115 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

So that it doesn't spill unduly into Dean's topic, who do you prefer: Samara or Morinth?

I'm honestly torn; I like and sympathize with both, for different reasons, and am never quite sure which one is the "right" thing to do. Samara kills worse people than Morinth does, but also probably far more people. Neither one is likely to change, and I can't count on being able to keep an eye on either after the suicide mission is over.

Generally, I lean more towards Samara, because at least that's not a betrayal, but I still have sympathy for Morinth.

[Dean_the_Young]

Do I ever do acts that would obligate Samara to come after me once the code has expired, as she promised?



If the answer is yes, the possible threat is preferred to the promised one.

[Kronner]

TBH I spared Morinth only once to unlock Dominate, reloaded the save and killed her. Very easy choice for me - I do not see any reason for picking her over Samara.

[Louis_Cypher]

The only reasons to choose Morinth are selfish; either you think her abilities would be useful, or you want to eliminate the threat of Samara.



She's not an oppressed victim fleeing persecution, or even struggling with a deadly addiction. She's gleefully embraced the illness and killing that accompanies it. Her attitude towards sex and murder lose her any sympathy.

[Dean_the_Young]

Since the reason you recruit Samara in the first place is the usefulness of her abilities, that's not much of a change. Trading one threat for a lesser threat isn't exactly selfish either.

[Homebound]

Storywise Samara is better, Gameplaywise, Morinth is better.

[Kronner]

Just_mike wrote...

Storywise Samara is better, Gameplaywise, Morinth is better.

Why? Reave >>> Dominate.

[Louis_Cypher]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since the reason you recruit Samara in the first place is the usefulness of her abilities, that's not much of a change. Trading one threat for a lesser threat isn't exactly selfish either.

Well, since the abilities are being used to save the galaxy, you have a point there.  At least if Morinth is sufficiently more useful to justify betraying Samara (perhaps a bit of a stretch).

Samara, though, is sworn to serve you until you complete your mission, which (given the way she sticks around) appears to mean the overarching mission of defeating the reapers.  So she won't interfere with you until it's safe for the galaxy for her to do so.  The only skin you're saving is your own.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Do I ever do acts that would obligate Samara to come after me once the code has expired, as she promised?

If the answer is yes, the possible threat is preferred to the promised one.

I disagree, if only for chivalry's sake. If Samara decides that I should be removed from the game later on, so be it: I'll deal with her right there and then. Until then, though, I'd rather kill the psychopathic murderer.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

I don't get how anyone would want to pick Morinth over Samara, even from a renegade perspective. I also don't get how anyone could have sympathy for Morinth.

[Dean_the_Young]

Louis_Cypher wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since the reason you recruit Samara in the first place is the usefulness of her abilities, that's not much of a change. Trading one threat for a lesser threat isn't exactly selfish either.

Well, since the abilities are being used to save the galaxy, you have a point there.  At least if Morinth is sufficiently more useful to justify betraying Samara (perhaps a bit of a stretch).

Samara, though, is sworn to serve you until you complete your mission, which (given the way she sticks around) appears to mean the overarching mission of defeating the reapers.  So she won't interfere with you until it's safe for the galaxy for her to do so.  The only skin you're saving is your own.

Samara's makes a distinction a number of times about the Suicide Mission, which is also the mission Shepard recruited her for. Samara is second only to Thane about the temporary extent of your partnership.

If Samara ever gave solid indication it was to the end of the Reapers, I'd have much less concern over her, but she really doesn't. Even though I, too, wanted to go 'but my mission is never over', which is sort of how my Shepard thinks. But that isn't a choice or opportunity in the game.

[jlb524]

Xilizhra wrote...

Samara kills worse people than Morinth does, but also probably far more people. Neither one is likely to change, and I can't count on being able to keep an eye on either after the suicide mission is over.

Samara kills the wicked...criminals, those who prey on the innocent.

Morinth kills...whoever she wants (innocents, mostly).  She convinced that small asari village to bring her sacrifices. 

I think there's a huge difference here. 

[Xilizhra]

Samara does kill criminals, but she doesn't seem to discriminate much on the kind of criminals. I'll certainly give you the village part, and their moral character is certainly quite different, but in terms of total damage done...

[dgcatanisiri]

I am not a believer in the Justicar code of black and white when everything else in the game is painted in shades of grey. But Justicars are a part of asari culture, and there is a very clear reluctance of Justicars to leave asari space where they are considered morally right no matter what. It's not our place to impose our viewpoints and standards on other cultures. And there is something interesting in the philosophical debate between the two.

Counter Samara's Justicar views with Morinth's hedonistic lifestyle. She had options. It may not have been perfect, but she could have had a full life living like her sisters. Instead, though, she opts to go out into the greater galaxy in search of greater pleasure. She doesn't care about the people that she kills. She enjoys the chase. That's WHY she joins Shepard, to continue the chase. To her, Shepard is the one who got away. She doesn't care about stopping the Collectors. She just wants the pleasure, the satisfaction of finding a way to get Shepard, the first to ever resist her.

No, I always side with Samara, no matter what. Samara may not be an angel, but Morinth is definitely a devil.

[PauseforEffect]

I will never understand how people justify killing off Samara as morally superior.

At least when Samara kills, it is done quickly and without personal gratification. During her recruitment, Samara has tried several times to offer mercy to a merc pointing a gun at her. 3 times. She made an effort to avoid having to harm an officer trying to carry out an order by agreeing to join Shepard. Samara is not a saint, she is a Justicar that punishes those who prey on others.

Morinth is a selfish, sadistic, manipulative witch that takes pride in what she does. You hear her bragging about savoring the look in the eyes of an opponent that knows he's about to die, while Samara will at least bow her head in shame as she tells of what she did to a village.

The life of a Justicar is not one of glory or pride. It is as Samara described: a life of hardship and tedium. When she dies, it will not be a home in a bed. Not a happy prediction she has given, but she chose it as the only honest one, no matter how brutal.

And as for Renegades, Samara does give warning that though she values the friendship, it is with hope that they don't run into each other. She is at least giving Shepard a sporting chance of living, instead of turning around and executing the commander once the oath is expired.

Oh, and who hasn't considered that the crew might find out what Shepard did to Samara?

[AntiChri5]

I have never heard a single rational reason for killing Samara to save Morinth.

[Dean_the_Young]

Morinth has a village willingly giving her themselves bit by bit. Samara just wipes out the village. Take your pick: the parasite by pieces, or the annihalator?



Given that Samara makes a point that all of Morinth's persausive abilities are based on pure force of personality, not drugs or ulterior means, I place as much blame on the villagers as her. Dominate is a nice gameplay mechanic, but not a lore-supported ability by any means. The villagers were willing to do it for her, against eachother.





Or not. Then again, that's part of the scariest part of Morinth: her victims are all to a point they willing to die for her before they did just that. She isn't fully open about that piece, but does anyone thing Nef was going to care?

[Dean_the_Young]

PrimalEden wrote...

I will never understand how people justify killing off Samara as morally superior.
At least when Samara kills, it is done quickly and without personal gratification. During her recruitment, Samara has tried several times to offer mercy to a merc pointing a gun at her. 3 times. She made an effort to avoid having to harm an officer trying to carry out an order by agreeing to join Shepard. Samara is not a saint, she is a Justicar that punishes those who prey on others

Her form of medicine is as contentious as a lack of it.

Morinth is a selfish, sadistic, manipulative witch that takes pride in what she does. You hear her bragging about savoring the look in the eyes of an opponent that knows he's about to die, while Samara will at least bow her head in shame as she tells of what she did to a village.

So Morinth's like Jack like that. And Grunt. Possibly Garrus, depending on just how much of a hardon he gets from killing mercs (the satisfaction gets creepy at times). Granted, I'd like an option to kill Jack and Grunt as well, but hey.

I don't see much grounding for calling her sadistic, unless you believe it's the painsensors that get overloaded when you mate and that's what she gets off on.

The life of a Justicar is not one of glory or pride. It is as Samara described: a life of hardship and tedium. When she dies, it will not be a home in a bed. Not a happy prediction she has given, but she chose it as the only honest one, no matter how brutal.

Oh, come off the high horse. She only chose the life so she could kill Morinth once Morinth ran. Guilt is as much a part of her reason, if not more, than altruism.

And as for Renegades, Samara does give warning that though she values the friendship, it is with hope that they don't run into each other. She is at least giving Shepard a sporting chance of living, instead of turning around and executing the commander once the oath is expired.

Yes, it's very kind of her to give a nice sporting chance.

It's her obligation to kill Shepard that is the problem. Not her manners.

Oh, and who hasn't considered that the crew might find out what Shepard did to Samara?

I don't see why we had to cover it up, except they couldn't be bothered to give Morinth her own lines.

Shepard already has a ship of terrorists, war criminals, savages, thieves, murderers, and vigilantes on board. One more isn't going to be 'Shepard, what sort of people do you hang out with!'

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 novembre 2010 - 07:47 .

[Xilizhra]

I don't see much grounding for calling her sadistic, unless you believe it's the painsensors that get overloaded when you mate and that's what she gets off on.

Well, if you ask her about her swords, she says she enjoys stabbing people and watching them die.

[jlb524]

It would be OK if Morinth used her 'powers' to kill bad people (she would make a wicked Assassin)...she doesn't. She's just a murderer.

[TheKevinShow]

My thinking is that choosing Morinth is an inherently evil act. Neither the Paragon nor the Renegade are evil. They just choose different paths toward achieving the greater good, so neither should choose Morinth.



I saved Morinth once to get Dominate and I will not pick her again.

[PauseforEffect]

Wow. For someone who fancies himself a utilitarian, you picked the worst outcome for the majority of people. In most societies, they usually prefer the law enforcer over the serial killer.

Did I ever dispute that Samara became a Justicar to kill Morinth?

Morinth is perfectly willing to kill Shepard. She actually succeeds if you play Shepard as naively trusting in her word.

Comparing Morinth to Grunt and Jack is just pigeon-holing with little thought given to why.

You don't see why you had to cover it up? Did you learn nothing from Garrus' mission? If you thought Garrus was mad at Sidonis' betrayal, imagine what he'd have to say to Shepard betraying Samara's trust.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't see much grounding for calling her sadistic, unless you believe it's the painsensors that get overloaded when you mate and that's what she gets off on.

Well, if you ask her about her swords, she says she enjoys stabbing people and watching them die.

Lots of people enjoy the triumph of victory. Shooting games where you kill people are designed to satisfy that sort of desire. It's the victory and death, not the suffering of the victim.

Competitive people in competitive sports often like the feeling of victory, and the other side's loss. It isn't sadism, which is merely the pain of others.

[Dean_the_Young]

jlb524 wrote...

It would be OK if Morinth used her 'powers' to kill bad people (she would make a wicked Assassin)...she doesn't. She's just a murderer.

I've never heard any good argument that she isn't just as willing to kill bad people as good people. Not everyone is going to be like Nef. (Like, say, some Shepards.)

An entire factor of putting her on your team is that you can use her powers against bad people.