115 réponses à ce sujet

[philiposophy]

Morinth would say anything to stay alive when she offers to serve you. While I might be apprehensive of Samara, she has sworn an oath of service so I can at least trust her for now. For Morinth I can rely on no such thing.

[Dean_the_Young]

PrimalEden wrote...

Wow. For someone who fancies himself a utilitarian, you picked the worst outcome for the majority of people. In most societies, they usually prefer the law enforcer over the serial killer.

In most societies, the law enforcer isn't likely to have a higher head count than the serial killer, and don't deem corruption a capital offense.

Did I ever dispute that Samara became a Justicar to kill Morinth

You certainly didn't mention it, while playing up the selflessness altruism card.

Morinth is perfectly willing to kill Shepard. She actually succeeds if you play Shepard as naively trusting in her word.

Quite fortunately, I don't play that sort of Shepard.

Morinth is willing to Kill Shepard. Samara is obligated to try.

Comparing Morinth to Grunt and Jack is just pigeon-holing with little thought given to why.

Well, when you're beef is that she's selfish and enjoys fighting and killing, those two are names that fit that category as well.

You don't see why you had to cover it up?

I see why the game did it. I don't agree that was the only way.

 
Did you learn nothing from Garrus' mission? If you thought Garrus was mad at Sidonis' betrayal, imagine what he'd have to say to Shepard betraying Samara's trust.

Probably less than what I got for disrupting his revenge, and for joining Cerberus, and for killing the Council, and for endorsing Tera Firma, and for keeping the collector base.

As Garrus says himself, he doesn't feel up to questioning your judgement after his own mess. Samara is small scale to other things he's let slide by with barely a word.

[PauseforEffect]

Again, you rely more upon assumptions to justify your reasoning.

You have made your decisions and stood by them. I'm done nitpicking this particular issue with you since neither of us is going to back down.

[Dean_the_Young]

Which assumption?



The Samara likely has a higher kill count than Morinth? That's debatable, but certainly has a basis compared to how hard it is for a murderer to stay hidden if she murders too much, whereas Samara talks about plenty of adventures and Justicar-duties she's done.



That Samara will be obligated to try and kill you in the future? She says that.



That Grunt and Jack enjoy fighting? That's in the game.



That Garrus says he isn't up to second-guessing you, and has stood by me despite far greater 'betrayals'? That's established in-game as well.

[Giggles_Manically]

philiposophy wrote...

Morinth would say anything to stay alive when she offers to serve you. While I might be apprehensive of Samara, she has sworn an oath of service so I can at least trust her for now. For Morinth I can rely on no such thing.

That choice made me laugh.
Yes ... I want to let a 400 year old serial mind rapist onto my ship..........

[Dean_the_Young]

Get the crimes right at least. She isn't a rapist.

[Collider]

My Shepard wouldn't side with someone who was about to kill him on purpose. Seems very very silly. Samara isn't perfect but she at least doesn't kill for entertainment.

[Giggles_Manically]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Get the crimes right at least. She isn't a rapist.

So what?
She is still a monster, who fries a person's brain bub.

Most people would rather not recruit her it seems.

[Nightwriter]

Morinth is so interesting.

It's really too bad my morals don't allow me to let her live. Pity.

[Giggles_Manically]

Nightwriter wrote...

Morinth is so interesting.

It's really too bad my morals don't allow me to let her live. Pity.

I have only let her live on my Pure Renegade Charachter, then got her killed along with Grunt, Jack, and Zaeed.
My Pro-Cerberus Shepard was like "freaky mind frying alien?" NO.
My Bad Cop Shep simply kills her for being a monster.

My Paragons all kill her.

[Dean_the_Young]

yorkj86 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Which assumption?

The Samara likely has a higher kill count than Morinth? That's debatable, but certainly has a basis compared to how hard it is for a murderer to stay hidden if she murders too much, whereas Samara talks about plenty of adventures and Justicar-duties she's done.

Ardat-Yakshi also receive power from killing people through the mind-joining, but this power-gain has diminishing returns, meaning she has to kill more and more people to get the same effect.  Consider that Morinth is able to stand up to Samara in a direct confrontation.  Consider, also, that Samara is much older than Samara, and has Justicar training.  The former means that she's had more time to practice, and more time to join minds.  The latter entails extensive biotic training.  Considering these facts, it seems possible that Morinth has killed many, many people, which was never in doubt, anyway.

No, it wasn't, which adds the question of how that means she's killed more than Samara... if that was your point at all.

(I also don't recall anywhere it being mentioned to be a matter of diminishing returns.)

Also, "killing" vs. "murdering".

I've always considered killing simply because some old law tells you to to be murder. Self-justification on the basis of an inherency argument ('if I follow the Code, I am just') is not an acceptable defense.

I do not recognize a need or a trans-species validity for Justicars.

[Dean_the_Young]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Get the crimes right at least. She isn't a rapist.

So what?
She is still a monster, who fries a person's brain bub.

Most people would rather not recruit her it seems.

I have a pet peave about maligning people for things they do not do. It's more or less along the lines that if you can't make a convincing argument without needing to exagerate, there's a weakness in your argument.

There more than enough bad things Morinth is. She is not, though, a mass murderer, a rapist, or a sadist.

[chris025657]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I have a pet peave about maligning people for things they do not do. It's more or less along the lines that if you can't make a convincing argument without needing to exagerate, there's a weakness in your argument.

There more than enough bad things Morinth is. She is not, though, a mass murderer, a rapist, or a sadist.

How is Morinth not a mass murderer?

[Xilizhra]

I think you need to kill double digits of people all at once to be a mass murderer. Morinth is a serial killer.

[Giggles_Manically]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Get the crimes right at least. She isn't a rapist.

So what?
She is still a monster, who fries a person's brain bub.

Most people would rather not recruit her it seems.

I have a pet peave about maligning people for things they do not do. It's more or less along the lines that if you can't make a convincing argument without needing to exagerate, there's a weakness in your argument.

There more than enough bad things Morinth is. She is not, though, a mass murderer, a rapist, or a sadist.

Oh Im so sorry that I called the misunderstood little Morinth, a bad person.
Did I hurt her poor widdle feelings?

She is a monster, she has killed for enjoyment, and she is depraved.
So she dies in my games.

[philiposophy]

chris025657 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I have a pet peave about maligning people for things they do not do. It's more or less along the lines that if you can't make a convincing argument without needing to exagerate, there's a weakness in your argument.

There more than enough bad things Morinth is. She is not, though, a mass murderer, a rapist, or a sadist.

How is Morinth not a mass murderer?

Mass murderers kill large groups of people in a flurry. Like going on a shooting rampage.

Morinth is a serial killer because she preys on her victims and has an MO.

I'm not sure it makes her any less morally repugnant, but there it is.

[chris025657]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think you need to kill double digits of people all at once to be a mass murderer. Morinth is a serial killer.

She's been killing people for 400 years though.

[Nightwriter]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Morinth is so interesting.

It's really too bad my morals don't allow me to let her live. Pity.

I have only let her live on my Pure Renegade Charachter, then got her killed along with Grunt, Jack, and Zaeed.
My Pro-Cerberus Shepard was like "freaky mind frying alien?" NO.
My Bad Cop Shep simply kills her for being a monster.

My Paragons all kill her.

It's so unfortunate... Morinth, if only you could've been a bit less unforgivable... if you could've only been like a Dexter type serial killer who preyed on the wicked... and if only recruiting you didn't mean killing Samara...

Alas.

[jlb524]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

It would be OK if Morinth used her 'powers' to kill bad people (she would make a wicked Assassin)...she doesn't. She's just a murderer.

I've never heard any good argument that she isn't just as willing to kill bad people as good people. Not everyone is going to be like Nef. (Like, say, some Shepards.)

An entire factor of putting her on your team is that you can use her powers against bad people.

Oh, I'm sure she's killed some bad people too, but she didn't do it with the intention of removing them from the galaxy for the greater good.  She kills indiscriminately for her own selfish reasons.  Now, what I suggested is completely different....that it would be better is she killed the wicked discriminately.   But, she doesn't...she kills whomever.

[Nightwriter]

jlb524 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

It would be OK if Morinth used her 'powers' to kill bad people (she would make a wicked Assassin)...she doesn't. She's just a murderer.

I've never heard any good argument that she isn't just as willing to kill bad people as good people. Not everyone is going to be like Nef. (Like, say, some Shepards.)

An entire factor of putting her on your team is that you can use her powers against bad people.

Oh, I'm sure she's killed some bad people too, but she didn't do it with the intention of removing them from the galaxy for the greater good.  She kills indiscriminately for her own selfish reasons.  Now, what I suggested is completely different....that it would be better is she killed the wicked discriminately.   But, she doesn't...she kills whomever.

Why?! Why couldn't she be a sadistic killer-of-the-wicked? Then she wouldn't have to die, depriving me of an interesting character!

[Saremei]

Samara is justified in her killing. I don't care how many she kills. Maybe she'll kill planetary populations down to more believable numbers.

[jlb524]

Morinth would be more interesting if sometimes she 'slipped' in her vow to only kill the wicked and did kill an innocent. She would constantly struggle with her primal desire to feed and her wishes to only kill those that are deserving.

The Samara/Morinth choice would be more difficult, IMO.

Modifié par jlb524, 08 novembre 2010 - 09:27 .

[CalJones]

I can't let Morinth live, even on my renegades. Letting a predatory serial killer who preys on gifted people on board the Normandy where every team member is an exceptional individual is idiotic. I'm also not big on betrayal.