115 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

I don't sympathize with Morinth for the monster she is, but I understand how she became one. It's a tragic downfall, really, and I can imagine the downward spiral that went from a longing for freedom to a lust for blood and power. However, I feel I owe it to Samara to side with her, since she pledged her loyalty and all.



I find it to be one of the most interesting choices in the game, actually, since you have to choose one or the other and can't pull a Charm or Intimidate option out of your ass. Seeing more stuff like that in future DLC or in ME3 would be great.



Saving Morinth on my all-renegade playthrough, though, since I want to try out Dominate.

[Nightwriter]

jlb524 wrote...

Morinth would be more interesting if sometimes she 'slipped' in her vow to only kill the wicked and did kill an innocent. She would constantly struggle with her primal desire to feed and her wishes to only kill those that are deserving.

The Samara/Morinth choice would be more difficult, IMO.

*drools*

[Dean_the_Young]

chris025657 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I have a pet peave about maligning people for things they do not do. It's more or less along the lines that if you can't make a convincing argument without needing to exagerate, there's a weakness in your argument.

There more than enough bad things Morinth is. She is not, though, a mass murderer, a rapist, or a sadist.

How is Morinth not a mass murderer?

Mass murders kill large groups of people in single events. Serial killers kill a number of people individually/small groups over time. Both may end up killing the same number of people, but the nature and scale of the crime(s) are different.

Sometimes they get interchanged and attributed the same thing, but the distinction is more specifically the size of the crime scene. At least, that's how it was explained to me.

Morinth is a serial killer. Samara is a mass killer. (I'll refrain from murderer as the debate of authorized killing/whatever is a separate issue.)

[Dean_the_Young]

yorkj86 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I've always considered killing simply because some old law tells you to to be murder. Self-justification on the basis of an inherency argument ('if I follow the Code, I am just') is not an acceptable defense.

I do not recognize a need or a trans-species validity for Justicars.

She's trusted with the privilege by asari authorities to kill, within asari territory, and that privilege is protected, within asari territory.  Objectively, Samara's privilege to kill is not at all affected by your recognition of said trans-species validity, either.  Thus, she might consider a Renegade Shepard's actions to be "murder", in the very same way your Shepard may consider Samara's actions to be "murder".

She could be trusted with the authority by the pope. Even ignorring that I'm not catholic, an inherency argument is still a fallacy regardless of who supports it.

Samara likely would consider me a criminal. That's her problem. My problem is her Code and basis of justification.

[Dean_the_Young]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Get the crimes right at least. She isn't a rapist.

So what?
She is still a monster, who fries a person's brain bub.

Most people would rather not recruit her it seems.

I have a pet peave about maligning people for things they do not do. It's more or less along the lines that if you can't make a convincing argument without needing to exagerate, there's a weakness in your argument.

There more than enough bad things Morinth is. She is not, though, a mass murderer, a rapist, or a sadist.

Oh Im so sorry that I called the misunderstood little Morinth, a bad person.
Did I hurt her poor widdle feelings?

She is a monster, she has killed for enjoyment, and she is depraved.
So she dies in my games.

Why the baby talk? Morinth isn't her. Morinth doesn't even exist. We aren't even arguing.

You asked why I spoke up, and I told you. I've never know you to take an answer to a question you asked personally.

[Dean_the_Young]

jlb524 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

It would be OK if Morinth used her 'powers' to kill bad people (she would make a wicked Assassin)...she doesn't. She's just a murderer.

I've never heard any good argument that she isn't just as willing to kill bad people as good people. Not everyone is going to be like Nef. (Like, say, some Shepards.)

An entire factor of putting her on your team is that you can use her powers against bad people.

Oh, I'm sure she's killed some bad people too, but she didn't do it with the intention of removing them from the galaxy for the greater good.  She kills indiscriminately for her own selfish reasons.  Now, what I suggested is completely different....that it would be better is she killed the wicked discriminately.   But, she doesn't...she kills whomever.

Indeed.

In my view, rather balanced out by Samara's lack of any demonstrated criminal distinction.

[ScooterPie88]

Well I have never saved Morinth but I'm glad some people have. Watching Shep die by snu-snu with that stupid look on his/her face is priceless. Youtube is a wonderful thing.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Morinth would be more interesting if sometimes she 'slipped' in her vow to only kill the wicked and did kill an innocent. She would constantly struggle with her primal desire to feed and her wishes to only kill those that are deserving.

The Samara/Morinth choice would be more difficult, IMO.

*drools*

If Samara slipped?

There are plenty of ways to make Samara unsympathetic: just focusing on killing non-extreme criminals would be a massive start. Or a reflection on how the apparent reason she joined the Justicars was to legally be allowed to commit fratricide. Plenty of things that wouldn't even require her to get out of code.

Morinth would also befar less hated if, say, instead of some pure-innocent-virgin on Omega, she had killed a merc. Then people would go 'meh, no big loss.' Sort of like how people react to the background knowledge that Samara kills the unjust, without really focusing on how banal and non-malevolent that category can get.



I'll admit, though, there could be an awesome character revision in this post: if Samara and Morinth's concepts were combined into the same character, of sorts. Samara is an Ardat Yakshi who turned Justicar, hiding her true nature so that she can be free and right wrongs and fight monsters like herself. Being a Justicar is her own redemption story... except she's fighting with her own addiction, and herself. There wouldn't need to be a Morinth, but rather the loyalty mission might be something else, like another Justicar identifying her as a AY.

[Nightwriter]

In all honesty, I've heard the term mass murderer applied to people who have simply accrued an extremely high body count over a long period of time.

It's an incorrect use of the term, but I do hear it.

[Bootsykk]

All sympathy aside, I would have to say that Morinth is simply more fascinating as a character... she's a cunning, highly coercive, impudent strumpet with sociopathic tendencies.



The other possible motivation for recruiting her may be for the purpose of studying her. I don't recall (I beat the game a while ago) Morinth leaving after the suicide mission. There may be the option in ME3 to study Morinth so that the gene for an Ardat-Yakshi may be eliminated, or that Morinth's powers may be somehow harnessed.

[Dean_the_Young]

yorkj86 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

She could be trusted with the authority by the pope. Even ignorring that I'm not catholic, an inherency argument is still a fallacy regardless of who supports it.

Samara likely would consider me a criminal. That's her problem. My problem is her Code and basis of justification.

So, as has been said before, hate the game, and not the player.  Also, inherency argument?  She receives the powers of Justicarhood from an authority in the same way a cop receieves the power to seize a person bodily from an authority.  Would you really expect a cop to be deterred from arresting you for committing a crime just because you refuse to accept the validity of his authority?

As there is no indication that the game did not portray it's intent accurately enough, there's no reason to hate thegame for something I don't like.

'If my actions follow the Code, they are just,' is an inherency argument.

The Justicars aren't a government agency. Cops receive their authority from governments, who have justification that changes from system to system but generally stems from or for the people. Justicars do not. Their legitimacy does not spring from any government. They are extra-judicial by the game's codex: an extra-judicial


I don't except a cop to be deterred from arresting me for whatever basis. Whether they are justified, or should be protected and defended simply because they are cops, is entirely separate question. (And the answer to that question is no.)

I certainly do not feel compelled to respect the self-claimed authority of a cop so far beyond their jurisdiction and authority. If Samara really did limit herself to Asari space as part of her rules, I might be willing to let bygones be bygones. But as Samara is perfectly open about possibly spreading her jurisdiction to, say, Omega, or Tuchanka, I have absolutely no reason to believe she would go back and stay in Asari space.

[Louis_Cypher]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
In my view, rather balanced out by Samara's lack of any demonstrated criminal distinction.

I don't know where people seem to get the idea that Samara goes around killing jaywalkers.

On screen she kills Morinth (murder, duh) and an Eclipse Sister (who is probably guilty of murder, as required by the gang).

She talks about trying to kill Nihlus (because he killed someone, so murder), and "wiping out" an Asari village, whose members a) provided offerings to Morinth (accessory to murder) and were apparently attacking her to allow Morinth to escape (so basically the same situation as mercenaries on a number of missions, or the brainwashed guards on Jacob's Loyalty mission).  She also mentions some things about political corruption, with minimal details.

Everything she does, incidentally, is legal in Asari Space.

[Sphynx118]

Louis_Cypher wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
In my view, rather balanced out by Samara's lack of any demonstrated criminal distinction.

I don't know where people seem to get the idea that Samara goes around killing jaywalkers.

On screen she kills Morinth (murder, duh) and an Eclipse Sister (who is probably guilty of murder, as required by the gang).

She talks about trying to kill Nihlus (because he killed someone, so murder), and "wiping out" an Asari village, whose members a) provided offerings to Morinth (accessory to murder) and were apparently attacking her to allow Morinth to escape (so basically the same situation as mercenaries on a number of missions, or the brainwashed guards on Jacob's Loyalty mission).  She also mentions some things about political corruption, with minimal details.

Everything she does, incidentally, is legal in Asari Space.

So by your logic she would have to kill every specter, police force, bodyguard etc and justicar in the entire galaxy just because the have killed someone?

[Dean_the_Young]

Louis_Cypher wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
In my view, rather balanced out by Samara's lack of any demonstrated criminal distinction.

I don't know where people seem to get the idea that Samara goes around killing jaywalkers.

On screen she kills Morinth (murder, duh) and an Eclipse Sister (who is probably guilty of murder, as required by the gang).

She talks about trying to kill Nihlus (because he killed someone, so murder), and "wiping out" an Asari village, whose members a) provided offerings to Morinth (accessory to murder) and were apparently attacking her to allow Morinth to escape (so basically the same situation as mercenaries on a number of missions, or the brainwashed guards on Jacob's Loyalty mission).  She also mentions some things about political corruption, with minimal details.

Everything she does, incidentally, is legal in Asari Space.

A simple list of people we know Justicars would kill:

Spectres
Murderers
Mercenaries
Smugglers
Corrupt officials

Now, the right circumstances can pardon the first. The second lacks context, but that's good as well. Most people here see nothing redeeming about mercseither. Even if we submit that all Spectres, killers, and mercenaries deserve to be executed without trial or jury...

But down to smuggling and corruption? Those are banal, and not deserving a death penalty at all. These sort of crimes are also far, far more common than Spectres, murderers, and mercs.

[Louis_Cypher]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
A simple list of people we know Justicars would kill:

Spectres
Murderers
Mercenaries
Smugglers
Corrupt officials
[...]
But down to smuggling and corruption? Those are banal, and not deserving a death penalty at all. These sort of crimes are also far, far more common than Spectres, murderers, and mercs.

I don't recall when she says she goes after smugglers.  Slavers, yes, but I think I could justify the death penalty for those.  She goes after "people-smugglers" in the chase after Morinth, but a) everybody she attacks is also a murder, and aiding Morinth, knowing what she does, is arguably accessory to murder anyway.  Even if I forgot something, she's been doing it asari space.  I don't like it, but smuggling is definitely a crime, so it doesn't bother me in the same that executions for, eg, adultery, do.  Or, for that matter, the way Morinth killing people for thrills does.

There's a lot of vagueness in corruption.  I could certainly see extending to felony murder rule to cover foreseeable deaths caused by political corruption.  In any case, she specifically targeting asari space, where justicars are accepted.  It's not like she's talking about coming to the Citadel and offing Captain Bailey; if the asari want to have the death penalty for corruption, that's their business.

I'm not wild about the whole lack of due process, but again, that's the law as it stands in asari space.  And, while I can't speak for other justicars, I don't see any evidence Samara is abusing it.  If it's that big a deal, I suggest focusing on the law itself.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
But as Samara is perfectly open about possibly spreading her jurisdiction to, say, Omega, or Tuchanka, I have absolutely no reason to believe she would go back and stay in Asari space.

She's not necessarily talking about about doing anything significantly different than Garrus did on Omega.  These are places that don't have rule of law to begin with.  As I said above, it's not like she's trying to impose her brand of justice on Earth or the Citadel.

It's not exactly an ideal situation, but compared to Morinth?  If worst comes to worst, she's probably easier to track down and deal with later.

Sphynx118 wrote...
So by your logic she would have to kill every specter, police force, bodyguard etc and justicar in the entire galaxy just because the have killed someone?

No. Not every killing is a murder. She specifically points out that Nihlus killed an INNOCENT.

[MColes]

Samara is a MILF. lol =(

[Googlesaurus]

Meh. Both of them perform exactly the same. 

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 09 novembre 2010 - 04:40 .

[tommyt_1994]

I can sympathize with Morinth, c'mon think about it. If someone came and said you have to either be killed or live a life of seclusion, wouldn't you run too? I imagine she eventually came to a point where she realized her addiction and then from there just couldn't stop it. Despite all of this though, I always pick Samara. My Shepard's a renegade, but I don't know if I've done anything Samara would kill me for. I also know that my Shepard can resist Morinth, but I don't trust her on my ship filled with 'talented and powerful' people.

[Louis_Cypher]

tommyt_1994 wrote...
I can sympathize with Morinth, c'mon think about it. If someone came and said you have to either be killed or live a life of seclusion, wouldn't you run too? I imagine she eventually came to a point where she realized her addiction and then from there just couldn't stop it.

Except that Morinth is fighting her addiction, or using a Dexter-style selection to control it and limit the damage.  She's embracing her addiction.  It would be one thing if she were desperate but powerless to overcome her addiction, but she's not.

Maybe I could feel sympathy for the 40 year old asari who fled rather than face seclusion 400 years ago, but she's not that person anymore.  The current Morinth is gleeful serial killer, who doesn't deserve anything other than a prison cell or a bullet to the brain.

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

Samara told Paragon Shep, late in the dialog tree, that she would come if Shep ever needed help. After the mission.



Her "I may need to kill you if you make me violate my oaths" is her version of a disclaimer.

[Cornelian]

ScooterPie88 wrote...

Well I have never saved Morinth but I'm glad some people have. Watching Shep die by snu-snu with that stupid look on his/her face is priceless. Youtube is a wonderful thing.

I have never unlocked Dominate and i am not sure i could do that one day...

Thanks for this!

[Dean_the_Young]

Louis_Cypher wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
A simple list of people we know Justicars would kill:

Spectres
Murderers
Mercenaries
Smugglers
Corrupt officials
[...]
But down to smuggling and corruption? Those are banal, and not deserving a death penalty at all. These sort of crimes are also far, far more common than Spectres, murderers, and mercs.

I don't recall when she says she goes after smugglers.  Slavers, yes, but I think I could justify the death penalty for those.  She goes after "people-smugglers" in the chase after Morinth, but a) everybody she attacks is also a murder, and aiding Morinth, knowing what she does, is arguably accessory to murder anyway.  Even if I forgot something, she's been doing it asari space.  I don't like it, but smuggling is definitely a crime, so it doesn't bother me in the same that executions for, eg, adultery, do.  Or, for that matter, the way Morinth killing people for thrills does.

It's in the codex of Justicars. 'A justicar would fight to the death to defend a village from bandits, but would then kill them all if she found they were all part of a smuggling cartel.'

Smuggling is not a crime deserving execution anymore than adultry or sodomy.

There's a lot of vagueness in corruption.  I could certainly see extending to felony murder rule to cover foreseeable deaths caused by political corruption.  In any case, she specifically targeting asari space, where justicars are accepted.  It's not like she's talking about coming to the Citadel and offing Captain Bailey; if the asari want to have the death penalty for corruption, that's their business.

Corruption is broad. If they didn't want to cite a broad category, they shouldn't have. Samara doesn't say she killed corrupt officials because they led to someone's death: she simply leaves it on the basis that they were corrupt.

I'm not wild about the whole lack of due process, but again, that's the law as it stands in asari space.  And, while I can't speak for other justicars, I don't see any evidence Samara is abusing it.  If it's that big a deal, I suggest focusing on the law itself.

Asari law does have due process. The Justicars aren't a part of the justice system: they are an extrajudicial organization Asari are awed by.

An analogy might be, oh, the Justice Leage. A grouping of people without a legal right to do what they do, but they have the power and the reputation that few question them. They still aren't a part of the system.

Of course, the Justice Leage also has a no-kill policy as best as it can keep.

She's not necessarily talking about about doing anything significantly different than Garrus did on Omega.

I don't think what Garrus was doing on Omega was right or for the best either, so it's a pointless comparison.

 These are places that don't have rule of law to begin with.  As I said above, it's not like she's trying to impose her brand of justice on Earth or the Citadel.

It's not like she rejects the idea she could or would, either. She didn't think about going to Tuchanka or Omega until she saw them herself, and there certainly are injustices in the Citadel (up to the top, I'd say), and certainly in the slums of earth.

Samara doesn't have a warrant for applying Asari law anywhere or on anyone that doesn't accept the roles of the Justicars. The closest thing the Justicars have to a justification for their actions is that the Asari accept them. No one else has to, or must.

It's not exactly an ideal situation, but compared to Morinth?  If worst comes to worst, she's probably easier to track down and deal with later.

If worse comes to worse, she's already done more damage than Morinth.

No. Not every killing is a murder. She specifically points out that Nihlus killed an INNOCENT.

She doesn't know that. She just knew it was an unarmed civilian, and went from there. Nihlus's reasons or justifications were never known or mattered.

[Cheese Elemental]

May I interrupt for a moment?

I feel that we can't properly discuss this issue if we force human standards onto it. Asari have their own customs (Justicars etc). They're an outdated order, but legally recognised within asari space, which is probably why they rarely leave it; if a justicar killed someone outside of it who wasn't also considered a criminal by other species or governments, she'd be guilty of murder.

As far as we know, Samara is not a murderer. As I recall, she only left asari space to hunt down Morinth, and we haven't been told how long she's been in Terminus space. We need more facts before reaching consensus.

[tonnactus]

Morinth has more potential then her mother.Plain and simple. Her power matches that of her mother despite her young age and will soon be bigger in the future. Thats a rational reason to pick her.And dominate is great even on insanity. It takes enemy fire from your team because enemies focus on the dominated target. Crowd control> better then defense stripping.