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#76
PsychoBlonde

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Fortlowe wrote...

We'll have to agree to disagree, then. I, for one, enjoy the Codex. It brought into even sharper contrast an already very crisp narrative, and the game would have been less without it.


I enjoy lots of things that don't necessarily make for a superior product.  That doesn't mean that I go out and declare that all cake should include ice cream or that all desserts would be better if they included cherry sauce.  Heck, if you watch cooking competitions they very often say that X dish had TOO MANY ingredients.

Extras can be nice.  But I'd rather not have in-game, unnecessary extras whose resources could be devoted to making core stuff better.

#77
Seagloom

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Seagloom wrote...

@Maria Caliban - No. I am saying that truly impressive writing is half talent, half mechanics. There is this strange popular belief that an outstanding writer became that way through talent alone.


Yes, I agree. But how does that make it not an artform?


I had no idea what you were getting at until I reread what you quoted from my first post. It was supposed to read "Contrary to popular belief, writing is not purely an art form." Word ommission is one of my greatest faults when writing posts. I have a tendency to forget words at times, and not realize it until way later. It is why 99.9% of my posts end up edited ten to twenty minutes later.

So yeah, sorry for the confusion. :pinched:

#78
tmp7704

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PsychoBlonde wrote...

Great writing is often more about what you CUT than about what you leave in.  Something like 80% of the deleted scenes in movies don't add anything but time to the experience.  Which is why they were cut.

Which is also why movies can come with optional material which gives you some insight from the director and such if that's what you're interested in, that isn't worked into the main story in some contrived manner. Very much like optional appendix to book that otherwise keeps the plot tidy and succint.

#79
Lord Gremlin

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I hope Bioware would ask some competent console developer to learn that sticks should scroll and D-pad select. And if you make D-pad and stick do the same thing - then your UI suck.

Yes, I'm being impolite, but damn - codex UI in console version of DAO is broken.

#80
the_one_54321

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There is no such thing as too much information. There is such a thing as too short an attention span.

#81
PsychoBlonde

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Addai67 wrote...

P.S. I also think that the more background material that is written, especially for a fantasy genre, the better the actual story is going to be.  And if an author is willing to publish the guts of his or her writing process, I eat that kind of thing up.


This isn't how these appendices and stuff work in actual publishing, however.  Hell, most authors would be *WILLING* to publish their GROCERY LISTS, and SOMEONE would no doubt be willing to BUY that crap.  (I actually shell out money for high-quality notebooks for the handwritten first drafts of my novels so that once I get published, I can hopefully sell it to a collector somewhere.)

Would you be so happy about it if insisting on including this stuff meant that entire scenes and characters had to be cut from the book to meet the publisher's length restrictions?  No, of course not.  And that's what we're talking about here.  The codex feature is using up resources and providing no real benefit.  I'd be THRILLED if, later on, after they've made a **** ton of money, Bioware decided to release all that stuff as DLC for fanservice.  Wunderbar.  But these "is there going to be a codex?!" threads are essentially asking for the fanservice up front, which I object to.

I want Bioware to make a **** ton of money, which means I think that *every possible area* where resources can be freed up to make the core product better should be dumped without complaints or regrets until such time as they are actually in possession of said aforementioned **** ton.

#82
Seagloom

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Addai67 wrote...

The problem I have with your post as with Psycho's is that it is very dogmatic.  Sure, there are writing conventions, and a lot of times when people go outside them, it flops.  But still, not everyone has to write the same way, and not all readers like the same things.  For me, Tolkien's style is like red meat to the hounds.  That's because he approaches a creative subject as if it were an academic one.  He's writing history and philology, just a history and philology that was never "discovered" before he wrote.  That's how a lot of sci fi and fantasy is- a whole new world, with new rules and new backgrounds.  I want to know the stories that come out of those worlds, but if a lore set fascinates me, then I am just as interested in the "textbooks" that come out of them.  So, what, am I a faulty reader for appreciating appendices and codex?

P.S. I also think that the more background material that is written, especially for a fantasy genre, the better the actual story is going to be.  And if an author is willing to publish the guts of his or her writing process, I eat that kind of thing up.


It was not from lack of interest. I read plenty of fantasy growing up. No one ever bought me a Tolkien book, and I had no idea who he was until I was a teenager. My mother owns his books now, so I could theorectically borrow them; I just never felt a strong desire to.

I like lore as much as the next person. I am huge tabletop geek with a brain that knows several campaign settings inside and out. When I *really* like a world, I seek out additional material to wring out every detail I can. That said, there is not much I can respond to here. As you wrote: "Sure, there are writing conventions, and a lot of times when people go outside them, it flops."

There are *very* few writers that earned accolades by succeeding on talent alone. That's fire from the gods. It's something so rare and precious, it comes around once every few generations, if that. There is little I can say about Tolkien, having never read his books, but I have seen more than one critical deconstruction of his work that made a good argument about its quality, or lack thereof in those cases.

No, you are not a faulty reader for appreciating lore. My point was that lore should not be a crutch for the story. If you read my first post again, you will see that I mentioned additional information and annotated versions were fine to gain added insight after the fact. What I think is poor form is for a writer to depend on such things to make their tale work. If you needed to read a textbook of information to fully appreciate a story, then something is wrong with that story. If you read a textbook afterward to enrich your experience, but the story can otherwise stand on its if you did not, then the story, at least in that aspect, is probably fine.

Modifié par Seagloom, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:25 .


#83
upsettingshorts

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Lord Gremlin wrote...

I hope Bioware would ask some competent console developer to learn that sticks should scroll and D-pad select. And if you make D-pad and stick do the same thing - then your UI suck.
Yes, I'm being impolite, but damn - codex UI in console version of DAO is broken.


I'm telling you, it's the GUI designers trying to get one over on the writing staff.  David Gaider was probably too snarky towards the wrong coder or artist or something.

"I'll show him, I'll hide his precious 'lore' behind an impenetrable barrier of poor organization inspired by an Advent calendar."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:17 .


#84
tmp7704

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PsychoBlonde wrote...

Would you be so happy about it if insisting on including this stuff meant that entire scenes and characters had to be cut (..)?

But using your own argument (in a way) if these things can get cut then doesn't it mean they're largely optional to begin with, and as such shouldn't even be included in the first place? So it pretty much becomes a matter of what exact optional content the player is getting?

#85
Fortlowe

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PsychoBlonde wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

We'll have to agree to disagree, then. I, for one, enjoy the Codex. It brought into even sharper contrast an already very crisp narrative, and the game would have been less without it.


I enjoy lots of things that don't necessarily make for a superior product.  That doesn't mean that I go out and declare that all cake should include ice cream or that all desserts would be better if they included cherry sauce.  Heck, if you watch cooking competitions they very often say that X dish had TOO MANY ingredients.

Extras can be nice.  But I'd rather not have in-game, unnecessary extras whose resources could be devoted to making core stuff better.


I refuse to generalize. All games shouldn't have a Codex. However, additional forms of exposition like the Codex are almost a hallmark of the truly 'classic' examples of videogame fiction. Bioshock's storyline was absolutely brilliant, and would have been so even without them, but the recordings brought the world of Rapture to life. Halo had outstanding gameplay and subperb pacing, but the novels lent an urgency and intent to the games that would not have been present otherwise. This 'unecessary' content enlivened the gameplay in a way that would simply be impossible otherwise. The Codex serves the same purpose for ME and DA.

#86
PsychoBlonde

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Fortlowe wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

We'll have to agree to disagree, then. I, for one, enjoy the Codex. It brought into even sharper contrast an already very crisp narrative, and the game would have been less without it.


I enjoy lots of things that don't necessarily make for a superior product.  That doesn't mean that I go out and declare that all cake should include ice cream or that all desserts would be better if they included cherry sauce.  Heck, if you watch cooking competitions they very often say that X dish had TOO MANY ingredients.

Extras can be nice.  But I'd rather not have in-game, unnecessary extras whose resources could be devoted to making core stuff better.


I refuse to generalize. All games shouldn't have a Codex. However, additional forms of exposition like the Codex are almost a hallmark of the truly 'classic' examples of videogame fiction. Bioshock's storyline was absolutely brilliant, and would have been so even without them, but the recordings brought the world of Rapture to life. Halo had outstanding gameplay and subperb pacing, but the novels lent an urgency and intent to the games that would not have been present otherwise. This 'unecessary' content enlivened the gameplay in a way that would simply be impossible otherwise. The Codex serves the same purpose for ME and DA.


Which is another part of my point: if the only way you can figure out how to "liven up" your gameworld is to have encyclopedia entries, you need to work on your skills.  There are myriad other ways to bring life to characters that don't involve walls of text.  The wall of text method is a lazy cop-out.  And if you already have the living, breathing world without it, why invest resources in it?

#87
soteria

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Halo had outstanding gameplay and subperb pacing, but the novels lent an urgency and intent to the games that would not have been present otherwise.


More optional info they had: in-game, you could find consoles that had what amounted to email messages and journal entries by the people who built the ringworlds. It was strictly optional information that didn't really even relate to the main plot, but it still added to the game.

#88
Addai

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PsychoBlonde wrote...

Would you be so happy about it if insisting on including this stuff meant that entire scenes and characters had to be cut from the book to meet the publisher's length restrictions?  No, of course not.  And that's what we're talking about here.  The codex feature is using up resources and providing no real benefit.  I'd be THRILLED if, later on, after they've made a **** ton of money, Bioware decided to release all that stuff as DLC for fanservice.  Wunderbar.  But these "is there going to be a codex?!" threads are essentially asking for the fanservice up front, which I object to.

I want Bioware to make a **** ton of money, which means I think that *every possible area* where resources can be freed up to make the core product better should be dumped without complaints or regrets until such time as they are actually in possession of said aforementioned **** ton.

I think what it boils down to is that "no real benefit" is in the eye of the beholder.

#89
Seagloom

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

As far as this whole appendix argument is going.  I think all I've learned today is that some people - readers and authors - don't like them because they fail a concept I'd describe as conservation of exposition.  I still like them.  I don't expect either side will be making any ideological conversions today on that issue.


Not to derail the thread, but I think this is part of the problem with these forums. I am not out to convert anyone. I am enjoying a discussion where individuals are sharing their thoughts; one that was interesting enough to compel me to participate in. This mentality of swaying others to one's way of thinking does more harm than good. Posting to convert or "win a thread" is doing it for the wrong reasons, I think.

Modifié par Seagloom, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:34 .


#90
the_one_54321

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The way I see it, this thread was over at post #2. If you'll go back to posts #1 and #2 you'll see what I mean. :)

#91
Fortlowe

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By your reckoning, the ideal game fiction is Limbo (which was a brilliant game). The medium (videogames) does something stage, screen, and page cannot; it allows the story to be lived not just told or shown. Just like any other medium though, it has limitations. Because the player is the center of the narrative, any peripheral content not directly involving the player is inaccessable due to the players own movement through the narrative. In a book time can be taken to recollect or ponder the nature and history of the beast the hero is about to slay. But in a game without a reference, there are but two options: ignore the notion or have an NPC explain it.

Modifié par Fortlowe, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:37 .


#92
Seagloom

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@the_one - In terms of answering the question presented? Yep. :P I suppose Mary Kirby could have locked it to nip things in the bud right then and there. Ah well, too late now!

Modifié par Seagloom, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:36 .


#93
PsychoBlonde

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tmp7704 wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Would you be so happy about it if insisting on including this stuff meant that entire scenes and characters had to be cut (..)?

But using your own argument (in a way) if these things can get cut then doesn't it mean they're largely optional to begin with, and as such shouldn't even be included in the first place? So it pretty much becomes a matter of what exact optional content the player is getting?


Well, sort of, but only if you think that the game is 100% perfect as is, which I don't.  My argument isn't that if ANYTHING CAN be cut, it should.  My argument is that if a SIDELINE can be cut, it should.  The very method by which codex entries are introduced mean that they are, in fact, a sideline--you have to pause the game to even go look at them.  Then those resources can be freed up so that you can have *better* core material.  More plot developments.  More suspense.  More action.  Better animations.  Whatever.

To make a completely overblown analogy:  I don't want them telling the story with shadow puppets if I could have photorealistic CGI in order for them to include a novel's worth of information detailing the average rainfall in the northern Bannorn during the latter half of the Macciato conflict in Storm 47, even though I know that when you're writing SOMETIMES YOU COME UP WITH THIS CRAP AND WRITE IT DOWN FOR NO CONCEIVABLE REASON.  While the shadow-puppets might be SUFFICIENT to tell the story, it's a better game if I can instead get photorealistic CGI.  It is not a better game if all you get for those same resources is MOAR CODEX.

Let's get the better game stuff as #1 priority and let everything else fall by the wayside until after they've got their **** ton of money and can do what they want.

#94
Guest_----9-----_*

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PsychoBlonde wrote...
This is what I want to see.  And keeping the increasingly-clunky codex because it's traditional is not the way to go.


You made some excellent points. I agree that the codex is clunky, but it's the information that's still useful to me. Admittedly, it's a lot easier to pause the game, then google a name or place. But then I'd search out background information that's not in the codex, like researching the meaning of Kirk.

Having fast access to the basic information of previous games would still be useful, since some or many of the plot choices will carry over from DA:O

Just like the map of Fereldon or Thedas, the codex (information) is something I'd rather be able to access.

Certainly, some over-zealous fans will nit-pick the data.
   

Modifié par ----9-----, 08 novembre 2010 - 07:13 .


#95
PsychoBlonde

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Addai67 wrote...
I think what it boils down to is that "no real benefit" is in the eye of the beholder.


To an extent, but you can objectively measure the benefit up to a point.  (Just like you can't say definitively "how many hairs make a beard?" but you can provide a range.)  Are a large number of additional people going to buy the game because it has a codex?  No.  Would a large number of additional people buy the game if reviewers from here to Australia are trumpeting it as a masterpiece of writing?  Quite possibly.

#96
upsettingshorts

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PsychoBlonde wrote...
SOMETIMES YOU COME UP WITH THIS CRAP AND WRITE IT DOWN FOR NO CONCEIVABLE REASON


Ah, I got that from Ayn Rand's novels too.

Seagloom wrote...
This mentality of swaying others to one's way of thinking does more harm than good. Posting to convert or "win a thread" is doing it for the wrong reasons, I think.


I don't legitimately expect that.  I'm just tired.  My goals on the forum are, in order:  Achieving common ground, or failing that, mutual understanding.  If I don't think either is possible, I bail on the thread or get snarky.  Depending on my mood.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:42 .


#97
the_one_54321

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Maybe someone should as Mary how long it normally takes to write a codex entry?

#98
Crimson Invictus

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Seagloom wrote...

I suppose Mary Kirby could have locked it




I'm not sure Mary can lock topics here, she's not on the mod list. I could easily be wrong though.

#99
Addai

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PsychoBlonde wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I think what it boils down to is that "no real benefit" is in the eye of the beholder.


To an extent, but you can objectively measure the benefit up to a point.  (Just like you can't say definitively "how many hairs make a beard?" but you can provide a range.)  Are a large number of additional people going to buy the game because it has a codex?  No.  Would a large number of additional people buy the game if reviewers from here to Australia are trumpeting it as a masterpiece of writing?  Quite possibly.

It can't be a masterpiece of writing and still have a codex?

#100
PsychoBlonde

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Just like the map of Fereldon or Thedas, the codex (information) is something I'd rather be able to access.

Certainly, some over-zealous fans will nit-pick the data.   


Yeah, there's not much you can do about the fact that enjoyment of a game is going to be decreased if people forget character names or where they're supposed to go or even what they're supposed to do.  And some sort of a "who's that dude again" reference in the quest log is helpful in this regard because a lot of people don't play through the game in 2 days like I do, they save, go off, do something else, come back, whatever.  So they forget things, assuming they even bothered to read the stuff closely to begin with.

But a quest log AND a codex?  Overkill much?