245 réponses à ce sujet

[PsychoBlonde]

Addai67 wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I think what it boils down to is that "no real benefit" is in the eye of the beholder.

To an extent, but you can objectively measure the benefit up to a point.  (Just like you can't say definitively "how many hairs make a beard?" but you can provide a range.)  Are a large number of additional people going to buy the game because it has a codex?  No.  Would a large number of additional people buy the game if reviewers from here to Australia are trumpeting it as a masterpiece of writing?  Quite possibly.

It can't be a masterpiece of writing and still have a codex?

Well, it hasn't been yet, so how should I know?  When the achieve the one, they can have their codex back.  Until then, Imma hold it hostage. 

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:44 .

[Seagloom]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

Seagloom wrote...
I suppose Mary Kirby could have locked it

I'm not sure Mary can lock topics here, she's not on the mod list. I could easily be wrong though.

You're right. I forget BioWare icon doesn't necessarily equal modding powers.

[Crimson Invictus]

Seagloom wrote...

You're right. I forget BioWare icon doesn't necessarily equal modding powers.

Mary's powers are beyond the ken of mere mortals so they keep a tight rein on her.

[John Epler]

I think the discussion in question is interesting and has, thus far, remained relatively civil.



*leans back, gazes over steepled fingers*



PROCEED.

[upsettingshorts]

JohnEpler wrote...

I think the discussion in question is interesting and has, thus far, remained relatively civil.

Only because someone didn't take my bait, either because they didn't notice or they're too clever.  Crisis averted.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:52 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Wow, I'm relatively civil! YAYYY!!!  Also, interesting!  Double yay!

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:53 .

[tmp7704]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Well, sort of, but only if you think that the game is 100% perfect as is, which I don't.  My argument isn't that if ANYTHING CAN be cut, it should.  My argument is that if a SIDELINE can be cut, it should.

Yup, however the catch here would be if something can be cut and the story remains coherent then it was in fact very much such "sideline" rather than crucial part of the plot. I'm also fairly sure that given choice between optional content like codex/extra sidequest and crucial elements of the main plot, the developers aren't going to choose the former. So if a trade-off happens, then it's between components of comparable value (or lack thereof)

[Addai]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

It can't be a masterpiece of writing and still have a codex?

Well, it hasn't been yet, so how should I know?  When the achieve the one, they can have their codex back.  Until then, Imma hold it hostage. 

I don't have a lot of experience with other games, but the writing in DAO was fantastic.  If they do it as well as they did in DAO, I would certainly be satisfied.

To an earlier point you made, about codex errors- that is a matter of flubs in execution, not a problem with the system as a whole.  You can get consistency errors in dialogue and narration, too.  I'm guessing you don't want those cut out just because sometimes something slips by the editors.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:57 .

[PsychoBlonde]

tmp7704 wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Well, sort of, but only if you think that the game is 100% perfect as is, which I don't.  My argument isn't that if ANYTHING CAN be cut, it should.  My argument is that if a SIDELINE can be cut, it should.

Yup, however the catch here would be if something can be cut and the story remains coherent then it was in fact very much such "sideline" rather than crucial part of the plot. I'm also fairly sure that given choice between optional content like codex/extra sidequest and crucial elements of the main plot, the developers aren't going to choose the former. So if a trade-off happens, then it's between components of comparable value (or lack thereof)

Note again that I didn't say crucial elements of the main plot, I said "improvements to the core game".  Improvements doesn't always equal MORE quests or MORE scenes.  It can include such things as high-quality polish to existing stuff.  You can get away without polish just like you can get away with releasing a moderately buggy game.  I just think the resources ought to be devoted to polish before they're devoted to sidelines.  

Up until a point.  You can polish a turd however much you want (speaking metaphorically of course) and it ain't gonna shine.  See also my comment about how many hairs make a beard.  I just don't think that *any sort* of bonus feature type stuff should be included in a game because I've never seen a game that was at that polish-a-turd stage where the core couldn't benefit from a bit more resources.

Do you have to make judgment calls about what is core and what isn't?  Yes.  Are there always going to be disputes about it?  Heck yes.  But the very fact that the codex is presented in the way it is means that it is OBVIOUSLY NOT CORE.

Hence me with my big ol' chopper and calculating look.

[PsychoBlonde]

Addai67 wrote...

I don't have a lot of experience with other games, but the writing in DAO was fantastic.  If they do it as well as they did in DAO, I would certainly be satisfied.

I thought it was good, but could be significantly improved.  The question is, could it be improved by more time/more resources, or is this the absolute upper limit of the skills and talents of the people involved?  From what I've heard of and from the people involved, the answer to that is a definite NO.

[Addai]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Just like the map of Fereldon or Thedas, the codex (information) is something I'd rather be able to access.

Certainly, some over-zealous fans will nit-pick the data.   

Yeah, there's not much you can do about the fact that enjoyment of a game is going to be decreased if people forget character names or where they're supposed to go or even what they're supposed to do.  And some sort of a "who's that dude again" reference in the quest log is helpful in this regard because a lot of people don't play through the game in 2 days like I do, they save, go off, do something else, come back, whatever.  So they forget things, assuming they even bothered to read the stuff closely to begin with.

But a quest log AND a codex?  Overkill much?

Not overkill, because different functions.  I look at a quest log when I want to remember what I'm supposed to do next.  I look at a codex when I want to remember how it all ties together with the larger story, the background that makes it more interesting, a side story that can't be presented visually or aurally, etc.

An example that comes to mind is finding notes in the world.  I love notes!!  Following the story of the crosscut drifters in the Deep Roads, for instance, that was one of my favorite things in the Deep Roads.  It wasn't as memorable as Hespith's chant, but it was appropriate for her recitation to be more front and center.  But I don't need those things clogging up my quest journal when they are not central to what I am doing.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 novembre 2010 - 07:03 .

[Ammonite]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned:

I wonder if some of the entries will be narrated by Varric (and by that I do NOT mean voiced), like Leliana did in Leliana's Song? Like maybe on Kirkwall you'll find:

"Kirkwall was a different place back in the days before the Champion. My family owned a shop in XXXX which was situated on the XXXX part of town, an area far from Lowtown, known for..." etc etc.

[Maria Caliban]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Well, it hasn't been yet, so how should I know?  When the achieve the one, they can have their codex back.  Until then, Imma hold it hostage. 

Dune is a masterpiece and has both appendix and quotations at the start of every chapter. If Dune is too popular, then Gene Wolf's Book of the New Sun.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 08 novembre 2010 - 07:06 .

[tmp7704]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Note again that I didn't say crucial elements of the main plot, I said "improvements to the core game".  Improvements doesn't always equal MORE quests or MORE scenes.  It can include such things as high-quality polish to existing stuff.  You can get away without polish just like you can get away with releasing a moderately buggy game.  I just think the resources ought to be devoted to polish before they're devoted to sidelines. 

Yes, i'd maintain my point just the same, though -- i don't think anyone is going to sacrifice resources to create extra content at the expense of leaving the core game not looking/being "good enough" in their eyes. Or just plain "good".

The exact level of what is "good enough" and "good" can obviously vary -- frequently individual gamers will expect much more than what the developers are willing to call satisfactory. On the other hand, at the opposite end of it the developers can spend years tweaking and improving the game constantly, trying to play catch up with the ever-evolving market. That way lies madness and Duke Nukem Forever.

Modifié par tmp7704, 08 novembre 2010 - 07:10 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Addai67 wrote...

Not overkill, because different functions.  I look at a quest log when I want to remember what I'm supposed to do next.  I look at a codex when I want to remember how it all ties together with the larger story, the background that makes it more interesting, a side story that can't be presented visually or aurally, etc.

An example that comes to mind is finding notes in the world.  I love notes!!  Following the story of the crosscut drifters in the Deep Roads, for instance, that was one of my favorite things in the Deep Roads.  It wasn't as memorable as Hespith's chant, but it was appropriate for her recitation to be more front and center.  But I don't need those things clogging up my quest journal when they are not central to what I am doing.

I'm not saying the codex adds *nothing* to the game.  Sure, it can liven up boring stretches.  But the problem there is that there ARE boring stretches and the codex is a vastly INFERIOR method of livening them up.  It is akin to dying your hair purple because you want it to be eye-catching and can't come up with an actual good, subtle hairstyle.  It is a lazy cop-out for the creatively challenged.  I think Bioware can do better.  And I'd like to see them do so.

[upsettingshorts]

PsychoBlonde wrote...
It is akin to dying your hair purple because you want it to be eye-catching and can't come up with an actual good, subtle hairstyle.  It is a lazy cop-out for the creatively challenged. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 novembre 2010 - 07:09 .

[Wulfram]

I usually end up reading this sort of thing on the internet, because games designers always seem to put them in an annoying format in game.

[biomar]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Personally I'd be pleased if they incorporated more of that information into the actual game than huge text-based info-dumps. . . . There's very little information in the codex that you can't infer by paying attention to the game, anyway.

The codex doesn't make the game's writing weaker; it serves purposes that the writing can't serve.

Let's say you learn something from a character during the game. Great, that's some good story writing incorporated into the gameplay. But what if you later forget what you learnt and would like to remember it? Would you want to play through the game again just to get that information, or would you rather take a quick look at the codex? (Although, I admit, this "quick look at the codex" could be quicker if it was easier to navigate.)

The codex can also be useful because Dragon Age the game is not a novel that you read through from start to end,
so players might never encounter certain dialogue options, or simply not hear/read them properly.

The Dragon Age world is a rich one, and it wouldn't always be appropriate to cram all the existing information into dialogue. If a player wants more details on a topic, they can turn to the codex. It's completely optional. As long as information isn't withheld from the gameplay out of laziness because it can be chucked into the codex (and I doubt that's the case), then a codex isn't hurting anyone.

I agree that, as you mentioned somewhere, you can't always include all your original ideas in a story or it will lose its focus – you have to trim it to keep it strong. But in this case, they have the great opportunity of including their ideas in a codex for further reading, so it would be a shame not to include it at all anywhere, beacause the codex doesn't weaken the game's story's focus.

The codex also helps create depth to the world, with its history penned onto ancient-looking parchment by
various in-game authors, each adding their contribution to the history book. Collecting these entries can be satisfying, giving you the feeling that you're finding the pages of a
tome as you play.

You can also view the codex as a fun extra feature, the same way some games have mini-games within them. I sometimes enjoy taking a break from the action and interaction to kick back at camp, open the codex and read about the rich world from one (not so!) convenient source.

Modifié par biomar, 08 novembre 2010 - 07:18 .

[PsychoBlonde]

biomar wrote...

Let's say you learn something from a character during the game. Great, that's some good story writing incorporated into the gameplay. But what if you later forget what you learnt and would like to remember it? Would you want to play through the game again just to get that information, or would you rather take a quick look at the codex? (Although, I admit, this "quick look at the codex" could be quicker if it was easier to navigate.)

The codex can also be useful because Dragon Age the game is not a novel that you read through from start to end,
so players might never encounter certain dialogue options, or simply not hear/read them properly.

Erm, the codex as it exists doesn't serve EITHER of these functions.  The largest portion of it doesn't reiterate information you find elsewhere in the game, and the factoids you do need to know are ALSO reiterated in the quest log.  And it doesn't reveal the stuff you didn't discover, either.

And frankly, if you manage to forget who Loghain or Anora is to a sufficient degree that you need to look it up, you're probably not one of those people whose enjoyment focus is the story aspect of the game, anyway.  The rabid loremasters who wuv codex aren't (in my experience) people who have to look stuff up, they're the ones who are spotting even trivial bits of information that are only eluded to and forming all sorts of interesting conclusions about it.  Which is also a good reason why you don't want to be eluding to stuff at length, because your busy writers are liable to forget that stuff themselves and then you have retcon all over your shirt.

[In Exile]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Note again that I didn't say crucial elements of the main plot, I said "improvements to the core game".  Improvements doesn't always equal MORE quests or MORE scenes.  It can include such things as high-quality polish to existing stuff.  You can get away without polish just like you can get away with releasing a moderately buggy game.  I just think the resources ought to be devoted to polish before they're devoted to sidelines. 

Right, but this is precisely why there are problems with exposition-through dialogue. For one, you gave the example of Sten providing lore on the qunari. This isn't always the case. To get Sten to speak about his background, you need to follow up with certain dialogue choices (otherwise the conversation tree closes). If you are RPing a particular kind of character, you will lose meta-game knowledge you might value as the player.

More importantly, the cost of doing very highly polished cut-scenes that are info dumps (Sten talking about how mages are treated is just an info dump delivered by the greatest straight-man in Thedas).

Certain things can be shown in game, but something like the signifiance of Arlathan or the elven gods is so tangential to the story in DA:O that it can't possibly be featured as part of quests, even if we are talking about sidequests. So the option is info-dump via conversation.

And even if VO, the problem is large because (as a Patrick Weekes told me, I believe) you can handle that by just having the VO ask generic questions (tell me about the history of your people,etc.) that any "codex" NPC could answer. The issue is the NPC VO cost, and the fact the player has to essentially plop down and absorb a giant dump of information.

The argument was that from a cost-benefit standpoint, it simply makes more sense to package all this flavour information in the codex which can be done essentially at zero-cost and then invest VO/design resources into critical path content.

Modifié par In Exile, 08 novembre 2010 - 07:24 .

[In Exile]

PsychoBlonde wrote...
I'm not saying the codex adds *nothing* to the game.  Sure, it can liven up boring stretches.  But the problem there is that there ARE boring stretches and the codex is a vastly INFERIOR method of livening them up.  It is akin to dying your hair purple because you want it to be eye-catching and can't come up with an actual good, subtle hairstyle.  It is a lazy cop-out for the creatively challenged.  I think Bioware can do better.  And I'd like to see them do so.

What gets cut to accomodate a better codex? The resources aren't infinite. In DA:O, we need to add VO cost and character models. The codex is pretty extensive. What would we have to lose in DA:O to get this? The board (chanter/mages/irregulars) quests were added (as I understand) after the delay, so that wasn't content that we could have lost.

[PsychoBlonde]

In Exile wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...
I'm not saying the codex adds *nothing* to the game.  Sure, it can liven up boring stretches.  But the problem there is that there ARE boring stretches and the codex is a vastly INFERIOR method of livening them up.  It is akin to dying your hair purple because you want it to be eye-catching and can't come up with an actual good, subtle hairstyle.  It is a lazy cop-out for the creatively challenged.  I think Bioware can do better.  And I'd like to see them do so.

What gets cut to accomodate a better codex? The resources aren't infinite. In DA:O, we need to add VO cost and character models. The codex is pretty extensive. What would we have to lose in DA:O to get this? The board (chanter/mages/irregulars) quests were added (as I understand) after the delay, so that wasn't content that we could have lost.

Dude, you need to read more carefully.  I am 100% in favor of cutting the codex entirely, not improving the silly thing.  The entire method of USING a codex AT ALL is inferior to other methods, which should be utilized instead.

[PsychoBlonde]

Heh, as a quick aside here, if I ever do realize my dream of getting a job with Bioware or any other gaming company, they will SO have to put in my job contract that I'm not allowed to participate in any of their online forums in any capacity whatsoever, or very soon 100% of all of my time will be taken up by arguing with people that MY DESIGN DECISIONS ARE CORRECT DAMMIT.

Or, the forums will just be peppered with posts saying "Suck it, Trebek".  Either or.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 08 novembre 2010 - 07:33 .

[Fortlowe]

What other methods though? Flashbacks? Cut scenes? Please enlighten me.



P.S.: not being sarcastic.

P.P.S.: okay maybe a little

[In Exile]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Dude, you need to read more carefully.  I am 100% in favor of cutting the codex entirely, not improving the silly thing.  The entire method of USING a codex AT ALL is inferior to other methods, which should be utilized instead.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant, what gets cut to accomodate what you want the codex to be? You want lots of in-game content, show instead of tell. Well, the resources aren't infinite. Some feature has to be removed because the codex costs nothing to produce. So what gets cut?