245 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...
It is akin to dying your hair purple because you want it to be eye-catching and can't come up with an actual good, subtle hairstyle.  It is a lazy cop-out for the creatively challenged. 

Maybe some people like the color purple?

[Lukas Kristjanson]

Ammonite wrote...

Apologies if this has already been mentioned:
I wonder if some of the entries will be narrated by Varric (and by that I do NOT mean voiced), like Leliana did in Leliana's Song? Like maybe on Kirkwall you'll find:
"Kirkwall was a different place back in the days before the Champion. My family owned a shop in XXXX which was situated on the XXXX part of town, an area far from Lowtown, known for..." etc etc.

That was one of several experiments I thought might be interesting for a story as loosey-goosey with its blend of playful truth as LS. That was also the only kind of codex entry I tried to give for the module, unless you started a playthrough from a completely fresh install and got a bunch of 1st kill creature updates and tutorial stuff (curse you, hardcoding). I don't know that I would want to mix and match styles like that as a rule, or do it on the scale of a full game. It might get a little tired.

As an additional thought for this topic, some have noted that reading the codex is optional and have broken that down between "I go there occasionally," "I love it and read everything," and "I don't read it so they should cut it." There is another factor that we have noticed, and I am not sure it has been mentioned. "I opened it, saw there was a whole buch of stuff there, and never looked at it again, but I really liked that the world had that depth." That's a tricky one to quantify.

Also, codex entries are not so different from optional clarifying questions in conversation. The shortest (optimal?) path would skip them, and cutting those lines would yield far more savings than the whole of the text of the codex. I'm honestly interested in the thoughts of those who generally skip those lines of dialogue, and who feels obligated to read whatever is presented. That was part of the logic of Investigate sub menus--to remove the immediate visual demand that every line must be taken. I remember one very negative review of BG2 where the author was absolutely convinced that he was not allowed to leave Irenicus' dungeon until he read every book in the library. It was there, so he thought it was mandatory. I can't imagine how he survived the rest.


edited for clarity and some spelling by I.R. Baboon

Modifié par Lukas Kristjanson, 08 novembre 2010 - 08:17 .

[Addai]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

I'm not saying the codex adds *nothing* to the game.  Sure, it can liven up boring stretches.  But the problem there is that there ARE boring stretches and the codex is a vastly INFERIOR method of livening them up.  It is akin to dying your hair purple because you want it to be eye-catching and can't come up with an actual good, subtle hairstyle.  It is a lazy cop-out for the creatively challenged.  I think Bioware can do better.  And I'd like to see them do so.

I guess I don't understand why text should be considered an inherently inferior method of storytelling.  Especially since it happens to be my favorite.  Being a game, I expect there to be visual and audio storytelling, too, but variety is a good thing.  I also reject the idea that it represents creative gimping.  Just because you don't favor it doesn't make it lazy or un-creative.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 novembre 2010 - 07:50 .

[PsychoBlonde]

In Exile wrote...
Right, but this is precisely why there are problems with exposition-through dialogue. For one, you gave the example of Sten providing lore on the qunari. This isn't always the case. To get Sten to speak about his background, you need to follow up with certain dialogue choices (otherwise the conversation tree closes). If you are RPing a particular kind of character, you will lose meta-game knowledge you might value as the player.

Wait, how exactly is this a PROBLEM?  Didn't you just say that doing exposition-through-dialog this way encourages people who care about lore to play the game multiple times and try different roleplaying options?!  This sounds like WIN to me.

More importantly, the cost of doing very highly polished cut-scenes that are info dumps (Sten talking about how mages are treated is just an info dump delivered by the greatest straight-man in Thedas).

No, it was not.  That entire discourse on how mages were treated was far from an info-dump straight on mages.  It revealed all sorts of interesting things like the way Qunari culture perceives and approaches risk (they don't consider opportunity costs AT ALL, and are very worst-case-scenario focused), Sten's poetic proclivities and the fact that the Qunari culture is based a lot around parable-type stories (every time he tries to make a point in the game, he tells you a little story to go along with it, it's quite adorable).  There is a wealth of information here that makes the cut-scene delivery absolutely invaluable.  Whereas look at the *unique* information delivered in one of the codex entries on the Qunari.  You learn that Riviani diplomats found out that there are, in fact, Qunari females.  (You also, sort of, get the impression that Qunari females are restricted to STAYING AT HOME, which MAY indicate a number of things like the idea that they MAY enjoy lesser or at least different status than men, and that the men might be quite protective of them, but you get all of that out of Sten's "you look like a woman" speech anyway.)  Hmm.  EVERYTHING else in that entry you can inferr on your own just by looking at Sten.  He's much bigger than anyone else in the party.  He has funny-looking eyes and a scary calm about him, and and underlying kindness that comes out in the way he acts even when he's being "ferocious."

The codex entry is pointless verbiage.  CHOP.

Oh, and Sten is not a straight-man.  He makes just as many jokes and sarcastic comments as anyone else, and he's not the default fall guy for the jokes.  The fact that he keeps a straight face (although if the animations were better I suspect he'd be giving you a subtle eyebrow along with some of the things he says) doesn't necessarily make him a straight man IIRC. 

Wikipedia: Straight man: A member of a double act
who plays a stooge, feed, or comic foil (an actor not meant to be funny
who is surprised by, or is the object of, a joke by the comic) in
theatrical comedy

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 08 novembre 2010 - 07:53 .

[the_one_54321]

Lukas Kristjanson wrote...
Also, codex entries are not so different from optional clarifying quesions in conversation. The shortest (optimal?) path would skip them, and cutting those lines would yield far more savings than the whole of the text of the codex.

And there you have it.

[soteria]

Also, codex entries are not so different from optional clarifying quesions in conversation. The shortest (optimal?) path would skip them, and cutting those lines would yield far more savings than the whole of the text of the codex. I'm honestly interested in the thoughts of who generally skips those, and who feels obligated to read whatever is presented.

I tend to always read them. Sometimes, though, they really annoy me. For example, as a dwarf noble returning to Orzammar, I wasn't allowed to ask questions I wanted to ask, but I was allowed to ask stupid questions like, "Who is Bhelen?"

I guess you can't assume people were paying attention, but I can always just not ask the stupid questions that I know the answer to, right? Not always. In ME, because of the dialogue wheel, I sometimes found my character asking stupid questions I already knew the answer to because I don't know what exactly "About the Collector threat..." is going to trigger. It might be something I already knew or it might be some juicy, undiscovered lore tidbit.

[AtreiyaN7]

Mary Kirby wrote...

shepard_lives wrote...

It's going to consist entirely of anagrams.

I am personally hoping that each codex entry is one of those sliding puzzles, and you have to shuffle squares of text around to form the entry before you can read it.

I think Mary out-evils Evil Chris.

[In Exile]

Lukas Kristjanson wrote...
I'm honestly interested in the thoughts of who generally skips those, and who feels obligated to read whatever is presented. That was part of the logic of Investigate sub menus--to remove the immediate visual demand that every line must be taken. I remember one very negative review of BG2 where the author was absolutely convinced that he was not allowed to leave Irenicus' dungeon until he read every book in the library. It was there, so he thought it was mandatory. I can't imagine how he survived the rest.

I always think there is some hint or source of valuable information for me as a player in objects that can be interact with (resources were invested in making them interactable for a reason, after all). So I will collect and read codex entries on the belief that paragraph 2, line 45-57 contains the secret to the Weapon of Inifinite Power + 504, and if I didn't read that one entry, I would be cheated of its greatness.

PsychoBlonde wrote...
Wait, how exactly is this a PROBLEM? 
Didn't you just say that doing exposition-through-dialog this way
encourages people who care about lore to play the game multiple times
and try different roleplaying options?!  This sounds like WIN to me.

It's the Kreia problem. Missing content because of the way I choose to RP is not fun, particularly if it adds depth to the world. Moreover, it may be information my character should know. A mage should know the Schools of Magic without having to have someone sit them down and start with, "As you know, the foundation of all magic...."

That is the value added in the codex.

No, it was not.  That entire discourse on how mages were treated was
far from an info-dump straight on mages.  It revealed all sorts of
interesting things like the way Qunari culture perceives and approaches
risk (they don't consider opportunity costs AT ALL, and are very
worst-case-scenario focused), Sten's poetic proclivities and the fact
that the Qunari culture is based a lot around parable-type stories
(every time he tries to make a point in the game, he tells you a little
story to go along with it, it's quite adorable).  There is a wealth of
information here that makes the cut-scene delivery absolutely
invaluable.  Whereas look at the *unique* information delivered in one
of the codex
entries on the Qunari.  You learn that Riviani diplomats found out
that there are, in fact, Qunari females.  (You also, sort of, get the
impression that Qunari females are restricted to STAYING AT HOME, which
MAY indicate a number of things like the idea that they MAY enjoy lesser
or at least different status than men, and that the men might be quite
protective of them, but you get all of that out of Sten's "you look like
a woman" speech anyway.)  Hmm.  EVERYTHING else in that entry you can
inferr on your own just by looking at Sten.  He's much bigger than
anyone else in the party.  He has funny-looking eyes and a scary calm
about him, and and underlying kindness that comes out in the way he acts
even when he's being "ferocious."

How is any of this not an info-dump? I think we have different conceptions of "info-dump". To me, if it is just flavour information that a character emits at you, it's an info dump. It could be emmited in the most creative and artistic way, but it's still irrelevant to the game and there only for flavour. I would rather the equivalent resource be invested in a critical path dialogue tree.

The codex entry is pointless verbiage.  CHOP.

Oh, and Sten is
not a straight-man.  He makes just as many jokes and sarcastic comments
as anyone else, and he's not the default fall guy for the jokes.  The
fact that he keeps a straight face (although if the animations were
better I suspect he'd be giving you a subtle eyebrow along with some of
the things he says) doesn't necessarily make him a straight man IIRC. 

Wikipedia:
Straight man: A member of a double act

who plays a stooge, feed, or comic foil (an actor not meant to be funny

who is surprised by, or is the object of, a joke by the comic) in
theatrical
comedy

Eep. That's my bad. Will strive to use the term correctly from now on. I do love Sten, though. He's the funniest character in the party - way funnier than Alistair, IMO.

[LTD]

It would be nice if some "Fat" got removed from codex too. DA:O was too bloated and "clunky" in this regard. If I wanted to " read" "books" I would play Planescape:Torment or not drop out from College. I says, get rid of the clunky "text" codex and give us "preview images" from F+F  romance instead. It would go well hand in hand with the combat improvements we've seen thus far.

Modifié par LTD, 08 novembre 2010 - 08:08 .

[PsychoBlonde]

----9----- wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Dude, you need to read more carefully.  I am 100% in favor of cutting the codex entirely, not improving the silly thing.  The entire method of USING a codex AT ALL is inferior to other methods, which should be utilized instead.

But what would you use instead?

I would use superior writing technique!  The better a writer is, the more info they can convey in the same amount of space.  This obviates the need for things like clarifying follow-up questions and codex entries.  The better you get at it, the less you need this stuff.

A truly superior writer does this (among other methods) through mastery of connotation.  This is also why you can convey SO much more in the same time period with VO than with text alone, and when you have ACCESS to this lovely information-dense medium why would you choose to supplement it with text?  That's what makes the text a lazy cop-out when you could be pushing the writing to entirely new levels of economy and subtlety in other areas.  Economy and subtlety of this kind is HARD but damn if it isn't OSSUM.

Here's another example, using Sten again because he is my favorite character.  To convey the full impact of the final scene where you chat with him at the "game over" epilogue with text, you'd have to do something like this:

Sten stands alone in the corner furthest from the throne, looking very uncomfortable with the celebratory proceedings.  Sam sits nearby under the window, but the Qunari has eschewed even the dog's silent company.  He seems lost in thought.  When you approach him, he looks up and frowns briefly, formulating a greeting.

"It is . . . good to see you again, kadan."

Whereas all of that is conveyed simply by the expedient of slapping his model in the corner and by Mark Hildreth's tone of voice and delivery when you click on him.  This is a beautiful, beautiful thing.

[tmp7704]

Lukas Kristjanson wrote...

I'm honestly interested in the thoughts of who generally skips those, and who feels obligated to read whatever is presented.

To supply a data point for your inquiry, then -- i generally try to read the entires as they are put in the codex, since the extra info that enhances understanding/sense of the game world is welcome. However, i tend to be bit selective in what codex articles get picked up, depending on character in given playthrough. A mage will make a beeline for any book he'll see for example, while CE rogue will go  and drops without reading what seems like diatribe about exact nature of magic and Tower politics. But on the other hand she will try to click on everything in the Dalish camp to learn something about them. Or if there's a griffon on the cover. That sort of stuff.

[Addai]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

The codex entry is pointless verbiage.  CHOP.

How do I know, if my PC has only met one Qunari in her life, whether Sten is that way because all Qunari are or because that's just Sten?  I don't, but if I find Brother Gentivi's book on the subject, I can learn more.  I may even learn something about Brother Genitivi or the Chantry in the process, which adds something to the story I wouldn't get just by talking to Sten.

[tmp7704]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

This is also why you can convey SO much more in the same time period with VO than with text alone, and when you have ACCESS to this lovely information-dense medium why would you choose to supplement it with text?

How do you figure that? Because i can read the text/subtitles about 3x as fast as the narrator can play his VO covering the same stuff. This is one of reasons i prefer the "secondary" entries in ME2 from the primary ones -- there's no pointless and distracting old man droning in my ear that i cut in mid-sentence as i go through the entries.

Modifié par tmp7704, 08 novembre 2010 - 08:20 .

[the_one_54321]

I'll reiterate; there is no such thing as too much information, there are only too short attention spans.

No verbiage is pointless, ever. Perhaps there are different ways to do the same thing, but anything that is providing extra information is doing something right.

[Herr Uhl]

The aim is to build a long-lasting franchise with Dragon Age, of course they want to show off fluff. And I happen to greatly enjoy lore fluff.

[AtreiyaN7]

Lukas Kristjanson wrote...

Also, codex entries are not so different from optional clarifying questions in conversation. The shortest (optimal?) path would skip them, and cutting those lines would yield far more savings than the whole of the text of the codex. I'm honestly interested in the thoughts of those who generally skip those, and who feels obligated to read whatever is presented. .

To answer that, I never feel obligated, but I enjoy reading anything that adds more flavor to the experience, like learning about the history of the world or the occasional humorous story/poem/song (like the nug-related entries). Heck, I even clicked on that vending machine in ME2 repeatedly to hear the full spiel about the Tupari Sports Drink with the increasingly desperate sounding fellow who was hawking the product (quite humorous).  I like finding Easter Eggs in games too, so I suspect that also has something to do with my compulsive habit of reading/examining everything I can.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 08 novembre 2010 - 08:35 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Addai67 wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

The codex entry is pointless verbiage.  CHOP.

How do I know, if my PC has only met one Qunari in her life, whether Sten is that way because all Qunari are or because that's just Sten?  I don't, but if I find Brother Gentivi's book on the subject, I can learn more.  I may even learn something about Brother Genitivi or the Chantry in the process, which adds something to the story I wouldn't get just by talking to Sten.

The problem is that you DON'T learn more from Genitivi's book.  (Or, actually, "paragraphs.")  You learn stuff that you can infer from talking to Sten or is simply stated outright by him.  And, in fact, the book is limiting to future writing because it would tend to indicate that ALL Qunari ARE a lot like Sten, so you now either can't write wild-ass atypical Qunari or you're saying, implicitly, that Mssr. Genitivi didn't have any better of real cross-section than you did with your sample size of one.  Either way, the codex entry is pointless.

I really don't understand why people have such a hard time grasping this idea.  I am not saying that text is an inferior method of storytelling (there is stuff you can do with text that you cannot do with ANY other medium.).  I am not saying that the information should be cut from the game entirely.  I am saying that, due to the nature of THIS medium, that is, COMPUTER GAMES, you have a huge wealth of options available to you for conveying this very same information without resorting to *text footnotes*, so WHY would you have the text footnotes?!  Authors don't enclose CD's of all the songs they were listening to when they were writing so you can get a better feel for their state of mind!  They rely ON THE MEDIUM to convey what they want to convey! 

Why on earth should we *not* hold video games up to this standard?  Stop arc-welding bathtubs to your game just because you can.  Sheesh.

Addendum:  In older games the medium was so limited that text footnotes were very often the only option you had, so I understand where the convention came from.  But this isn't true any more and becomes increasingly untrue with every year that passes and every improvement in technology.  Would you approve of a modern movie that used the text-screens of old silent films alongside their spoken dialog because you like to read those text screens?  No.  That would be silly.  And if a movie did this, you'd say it was gimmicky.  It'd look like the commentary track that comes on the DVD.  How much would you like going to a movie in the theater where the commentary track was included and you couldn't just watch the actual movie?  You'd feel like they'd cheated you out of your 10 bucks or 12.50 or whatever it is now.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 08 novembre 2010 - 08:33 .

[Leonia]

I wonder how many people only gather codex entries for the xp they give and don't bother reading them at all or intend to read them later but due the organisation in the codex portion of the journal decide to give up when they can't find the one they just picked up.

[Fortlowe]

I will concede some methods of exposition do leave a little to be desired. The emails from ME2, or at least some of them, might have been more pleasant as vids or when appropriate even calls that could be handled with the conversation wheel.

The codex, I still maintain, fills the need for perspective in the gameworld that otherwise is not attainable by the PC, ergo unontainable otherwise.

Modifié par Fortlowe, 08 novembre 2010 - 08:35 .

[Maria Caliban]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

It is akin to dying your hair purple because you want it to be eye-catching and can't come up with an actual good, subtle hairstyle.  It is a lazy cop-out for the creatively challenged.

... I like the codex *and* colored my hair purple.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 08 novembre 2010 - 08:34 .

[Dave of Canada]

leonia42 wrote...

I wonder how many people only gather codex entries for the xp they give and don't bother reading them at all or intend to read them later but due the organisation in the codex portion of the journal decide to give up when they can't find the one they just picked up.

I'd read them but I'm unable to do it because of how bad the console works for the codex, I can't find that one specific codex I want because I'd have to wipe the "unread" tag of every single codex entry. Even worse when you can't tell what tab it's under.

[Leonia]

Ok, I've been dieing to ask this for awhile but I'm feeling adventurous now so why not: How many novels has PsychoBlonde had published recently?

Modifié par leonia42, 08 novembre 2010 - 08:36 .

[Fortlowe]

Dave of Canada wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

I wonder how many people only gather codex entries for the xp they give and don't bother reading them at all or intend to read them later but due the organisation in the codex portion of the journal decide to give up when they can't find the one they just picked up.

I'd read them but I'm unable to do it because of how bad the console works for the codex, I can't find that one specific codex I want because I'd have to wipe the "unread" tag of every single codex entry. Even worse when you can't tell what tab it's under.

^This.....again.