245 réponses à ce sujet

[Eleinehmm]

Fortlowe wrote...

The codex, I still maintain is, fills the need for perspective in the gameworld that otherwise is not attainable by the PC, ergo unontainable otherwise.

That is it - If they were shipping Game World manuals with the game the codex wouldn't have been needed - But since it is not the case, codex should stay as setting specific information ( And as such it's  not necessarily  corresponds  with your player character knowledge about the setting )

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 08 novembre 2010 - 08:46 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Fortlowe wrote...

The codex, I still maintain is, fills the need for perspective in the gameworld that otherwise is not attainable by the PC, ergo unontainable otherwise.

How is this a "need"?  The whole point of a character-driven narrative is that it HAS a certain perspective.  Otherwise make a freakin turn-based strategy or something if you feel the "need" for a global third-person perspective on everything.  The way the story is told is just as much a part of the creative decisions as any other aspect.  If you feel a need to supplement/derail that perspective because it's not telling precisely the story you want to tell, it's still on the writers to fix this by altering their storytelling a bit.  The codex should not be serving as some sort of "these are not necessarily the views of the portrayed characters" disclaimer.

There is actually a term for this philosophical viewpoint in art, that every work must contain certain aspects otherwise the work is not "complete" in some way, and that term is Intrinsicism, where a certain form is considered to be Mandatory instead of an attempt to essentialize the purposes that various forms are intended to serve.  No medium will progress when bound by form requirements that are *detached* from function.  (And intrinsicists always have some argument along the lines of, this function is NECESSARY and can ONLY be served BY THIS FORM.  They're always wrong.)

(Nor will any medium progress when the requirements of function are dumped in favor of screwing around with form.  Everything worthwhile in life possesses a kind of duality.  Mind AND body.  Form AND function.  Reason AND emotion.  The real geniuses among us are the people who discover the way to have both, to reconcile these *apparent* opposites and show that they are not opposed at all.)

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 08 novembre 2010 - 08:47 .

[Leonia]

Fortlowe wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

I wonder how many people only gather codex entries for the xp they give and don't bother reading them at all or intend to read them later but due the organisation in the codex portion of the journal decide to give up when they can't find the one they just picked up.

I'd read them but I'm unable to do it because of how bad the console works for the codex, I can't find that one specific codex I want because I'd have to wipe the "unread" tag of every single codex entry. Even worse when you can't tell what tab it's under.

^This.....again.

I play on PC and I am guilty of this with some playthroughs. For the longest time, I just skipped the codex entries altogether because of the interface and desperately waited for the Dragon Age Wiki to start putting them up with entries so I could find the darn things in some sort of context. I am also guilty of only gathering codex entries for xp but only after I have read them before on other characters (and I gather all of them as I find them, never skipping over any since Awakening put me in the habit of constantly holding the tab key and I can't resist a "scroll" or a "book" sitting around on my screen without examining it).

Modifié par leonia42, 08 novembre 2010 - 08:42 .

[Dave of Canada]

This is how it is on the console:
(red means it's where the "select" thing is.

Codex
---------
[Creatures]
[Items]
[Magic and Religion]
[Culture and History]
[Characters]
[Books and Songs]
[Notes]
[Spell Combinations]
[Controls]
[Quest-Related]


Now let's say.... I want the codex entry for Loghain, that will be in Characters.

Codex
---------
[Creatures]
[Items]
[Magic and Religion]
[Culture and History]
[Characters]
                                  - Alistair
                                  - Queen Anora
                                  - Bhelen Aeducan
                                  - King Cailan
                                  - Ser Cauthrien
                                  - Dog
                                  - Duncan
                                  [Cuts off]
[Books and Songs]
[Notes]
[Spell Combinations]
[Controls]
[Quest-Related]


Now I'm unable to see anything under Duncan, so what do I need to do? I can't scroll the list down, so I'll need to go through each individual codex entry until I find the one I want. This removes the "fresh" tag and is extremely tedious.

Codex
---------
[Creatures]
[Items]
[Magic and Religion]
[Culture and History]
[Characters]
                                  - Alistair
                                  - Queen Anora
                                  - Bhelen Aeducan
                                  - King Cailan
                                  - Ser Cauthrien
                                  - Dog
                                  - Duncan
                                  - Arl Eamon Guerrin
                                  [Cuts off]
[Books and Songs]
[Notes]
[Spell Combinations]
[Controls]
[Quest-Related]


This makes it VERY hard to keep track of what you actually read and what you didn't read. Especially since you're scrolling down a list you can't see, so you don't even know if you're passing through things you already read. It's really big pain.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 08 novembre 2010 - 08:48 .

[Fortlowe]

Oh, I read the codex thoroughly, but it is an absolute pain to navigate. I'm certain this will be addressed in the sequel though.

[Leonia]

Ouch, yeah the console version must be a royal pain in the arse. The PC version isn't much better if you're not keeping up with entries as they are added and you end up with a bunch of blinking yellow boxes (that indicate new entries) when you decide to check on the codex window from time to time. But wow, my frustrations are nothing in comparison to ya'll console people. It's a shame that the navigation was so bad, a lot of that lore probably wasn't experienced or acknowledged by most players.

[Ziggeh]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

How is this a "need"?  The whole point of a character-driven narrative is that it HAS a certain perspective.

Context, history, depth. I really agree with you when it comes to traditional fiction, I'm a zealot for "tight" efficient writing, but in DA's case the "interact" overrides the "novel" element.

It's me making the decisions and so I want to know everything. Much of it won't be pertinent, but rather than an author laying down what he feels the questions are about, the decisions you make in Bioware games rely upon individual interpretation, something that, while I'm sure the writers attempt to forsee as much as possible, I don't believe they can ever truly hope to cover in scale.

The codex adds depth to these decisions by giving you deeper information about the world in which they are made. Many won't want or need that, and so it would be out of place in the main story, but personally I found it a key part of the experience, and honestly would have liked an awful lot more.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

I love the codex and it's one of my favorite parts of the game having this reference material to go deeper into the story and lore. I hope the codex imports with DA2 from DAO and DAA; there isn't enough lore in the game for me and I'd like more please.



I did like how the codex in DAA was updated with a pc's decisions from DAO. I would have liked to seen even more information on updated companion codex and especially more notes and letters to the commander in DAA especially after your discussion when court day came up.



I do think the codex could be better organized making it easier to find entries, but I don't have any suggestions off the top of my head to contribute a solution.



The codex is optional to read for players and I'd rather the option be available within the game so I don't have to pause my game and go to the wiki incase I need or want more information.



It might be a good having a on/off button in the game option settings to turn the notifications on/off in game play for those who don't want to read the codex. After several playthroughs it did get annoying having them pop up. Just a suggestion for developers.

[Fortlowe]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

The codex, I still maintain is, fills the need for perspective in the gameworld that otherwise is not attainable by the PC, ergo unontainable otherwise.

How is this a "need"?  The whole point of a character-driven narrative is that it HAS a certain perspective.  Otherwise make a freakin turn-based strategy or something if you feel the "need" for a global third-person perspective on everything.  The way the story is told is just as much a part of the creative decisions as any other aspect.  If you feel a need to supplement/derail that perspective because it's not telling precisely the story you want to tell, it's still on the writers to fix this by altering their storytelling a bit.  The codex should not be serving as some sort of "these are not necessarily the views of the portrayed characters" disclaimer.

There is actually a term for this philosophical viewpoint in art, that every work must contain certain aspects otherwise the work is not "complete" in some way, and that term is Intrinsicism, where a certain form is considered to be Mandatory instead of an attempt to essentialize the purposes that various forms are intended to serve.  No medium will progress when bound by form requirements that are *detached* from function.  (And intrinsicists always have some argument along the lines of, this function is NECESSARY and can ONLY be served BY THIS FORM.  They're always wrong.)

(Nor will any medium progress when the requirements of function are dumped in favor of screwing around with form.  Everything worthwhile in life possesses a kind of duality.  Mind AND body.  Form AND function.  Reason AND emotion.  The real geniuses among us are the people who discover the way to have both, to reconcile these *apparent* opposites and show that they are not opposed at all.)

That 'need' being a setting with a history and machinations beyond the PC's perceptions. Again though, I refuse to generalize. Your argument encompasses the medium as a whole all the while placing a self imposed 'limit' on how this particular franchise's narrative is handled. And limiting all information to that which is accessable directly from the PC's perception is a story that may interest you, but I prefer that perspective and remotely observed information to establish the setting as more than simply the PC's world, but a world in and of itself.  So, I repeat: We will simply have to agree to disagree.

[Addai]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

The codex entry is pointless verbiage.  CHOP.

How do I know, if my PC has only met one Qunari in her life, whether Sten is that way because all Qunari are or because that's just Sten?  I don't, but if I find Brother Gentivi's book on the subject, I can learn more.  I may even learn something about Brother Genitivi or the Chantry in the process, which adds something to the story I wouldn't get just by talking to Sten.

The problem is that you DON'T learn more from Genitivi's book.  (Or, actually, "paragraphs.")  You learn stuff that you can infer from talking to Sten or is simply stated outright by him.  And, in fact, the book is limiting to future writing because it would tend to indicate that ALL Qunari ARE a lot like Sten, so you now either can't write wild-ass atypical Qunari or you're saying, implicitly, that Mssr. Genitivi didn't have any better of real cross-section than you did with your sample size of one.  Either way, the codex entry is pointless.

a) You can't reliably infer that all Qunari are like Sten.  You have no way of knowing that.  If you talk to Sten and then find your impressions confirmed by a book, that is more information than you had just by talking to him.

Not writing codex because you might change the lore later is a lame point and so I'll move on.

I really don't understand why people have such a hard time grasping this idea.  I am not saying that text is an inferior method of storytelling (there is stuff you can do with text that you cannot do with ANY other medium.).  I am not saying that the information should be cut from the game entirely.  I am saying that, due to the nature of THIS medium, that is, COMPUTER GAMES, you have a huge wealth of options available to you for conveying this very same information without resorting to *text footnotes*, so WHY would you have the text footnotes?!  Authors don't enclose CD's of all the songs they were listening to when they were writing so you can get a better feel for their state of mind!  They rely ON THE MEDIUM to convey what they want to convey! 

I don't understand why you have a hard time grasping that some people like the system as it is and don't consider it a kludge.  Stop treating your preferences as the way the world should work.  P.S. I also like to read liner notes on CDs!  And Behind the Music was a big hit on VH-1!

Addendum:  In older games the medium was so limited that text footnotes were very often the only option you had, so I understand where the convention came from.  But this isn't true any more and becomes increasingly untrue with every year that passes and every improvement in technology.  Would you approve of a modern movie that used the text-screens of old silent films alongside their spoken dialog because you like to read those text screens?  No.  That would be silly.  And if a movie did this, you'd say it was gimmicky.  It'd look like the commentary track that comes on the DVD.  How much would you like going to a movie in the theater where the commentary track was included and you couldn't just watch the actual movie?  You'd feel like they'd cheated you out of your 10 bucks or 12.50 or whatever it is now.

Why should a game be just like a movie?  Why can't it have its own conventions?

Modifié par Addai67, 08 novembre 2010 - 09:14 .

[mr_luga]

People wanting it removed is beyond me, it added SOOOO much to the game, I spent hours reading through it all, it was awesome.

Those who arent interested, you arent forced to read it, so why want it to removed to stick it to those who enjoy it? :-/

Some want it implemented diffrently.. How? Talk to alot of guys? It would be pretty silly to just randomly talk to people like that, you get such a brief idea what it's about, like Fallout3, asking about things there, you get a few sentances, you get big pages with Dragon age, which just gives SO much more depth and story into the whole Dragon age Lore

[Ziggeh]

mr_luga wrote...

It would be pretty silly to just randomly talk to people like that, you get such a brief idea what it's about, like Fallout3, asking about things there, you get a few sentances, you get big pages with Dragon age, which just gives SO much more depth and story into the whole Dragon age Lore

I'd really like both. There were an awful lot of questions I would have been asking when it came time to make a decisions.

[PsychoBlonde]

Fortlowe wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

The codex, I still maintain is, fills the need for perspective in the gameworld that otherwise is not attainable by the PC, ergo unontainable otherwise.

How is this a "need"?  The whole point of a character-driven narrative is that it HAS a certain perspective.  Otherwise make a freakin turn-based strategy or something if you feel the "need" for a global third-person perspective on everything.  The way the story is told is just as much a part of the creative decisions as any other aspect.  If you feel a need to supplement/derail that perspective because it's not telling precisely the story you want to tell, it's still on the writers to fix this by altering their storytelling a bit.  The codex should not be serving as some sort of "these are not necessarily the views of the portrayed characters" disclaimer.

There is actually a term for this philosophical viewpoint in art, that every work must contain certain aspects otherwise the work is not "complete" in some way, and that term is Intrinsicism, where a certain form is considered to be Mandatory instead of an attempt to essentialize the purposes that various forms are intended to serve.  No medium will progress when bound by form requirements that are *detached* from function.  (And intrinsicists always have some argument along the lines of, this function is NECESSARY and can ONLY be served BY THIS FORM.  They're always wrong.)

(Nor will any medium progress when the requirements of function are dumped in favor of screwing around with form.  Everything worthwhile in life possesses a kind of duality.  Mind AND body.  Form AND function.  Reason AND emotion.  The real geniuses among us are the people who discover the way to have both, to reconcile these *apparent* opposites and show that they are not opposed at all.)

That 'need' being a setting with a history and machinations beyond the PC's perceptions. Again though, I refuse to generalize. Your argument encompasses the medium as a whole all the while placing a self imposed 'limit' on how this particular franchise's narrative is handled. And limiting all information to that which is accessable directly from the PC's perception is a story that may interest you, but I prefer that perspective and remotely observed information to establish the setting as more than simply the PC's world, but a world in and of itself.  So, I repeat: We will simply have to agree to disagree.

For the billionth time.  I am not saying you can't have a codex or that there has to be some kind of limit.  I am saying that there are OPPORTUNITY COSTS involved in having a codex and that having said codex means, automatically, that the game will have, as a result, features X, Y, and Z which may or may not be desirable.  My conclusion from these facts, in the context of THIS PARTICULAR GAME, is that DA2 does not need a codex.  Ergo it should be cut.  I challenge the assertion that ANY game, much less THIS game, "needs" a codex feature.  If your game DOES need a codex feature (because that makes it a superior game to anything else you could do with those resources) by all means, codex away.  I wouldn't say it about DA2 if I hadn't seen SO much great stuff out of the team that I think they can do without it and turn out a superior product.  Especially since the skills of whoever designed the codex index are so obviously lacking.

I love how you keep accusing me of making some kind of broad generalizations when you're the one who keeps saying things like "every game needs X" because "every game needs perspective" or whatever.  My conclusions are tied to broad principles that I apply to *particular* factual observations.  If we were discussing, say, one of the old gold-box games with 8-bit graphics, I'd say, absolutely, THIS GAME NEEDS THE CODEX , (or the journal entrys that they used to have), because the existing medium just doesn't allow for anything else.  Your conclusions are tied to *particular* desires that you attempt to turn into broad principles that have become tenuous and silly because the medium has advanced to the point where none of those reasons apply any more--they just boil down to "I wants wall of text because I likes wall of text".  So buy the books already and get over it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

That's good. Nothing more annoying that putting up with a narrator that speaks at 1/3rd the speed you read.

Isn't that basically how NPC voice-over works?

[Shepard Lives]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

That's good. Nothing more annoying that putting up with a narrator that speaks at 1/3rd the speed you read.

Isn't that basically how NPC voice-over works?

NPC lines are quite a bit shorter than a Codex entry.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

It's the Kreia problem. Missing content because of the way I choose to RP is not fun, particularly if it adds depth to the world.

I think roleplaying properly (for that character) is fun in and of itself.  However...

Moreover, it may be information my character should know. A mage should know the Schools of Magic without having to have someone sit them down and start with, "As you know, the foundation of all magic...."

This was information that should have been available to the player prior to starting the game.  In a book of lore or something that accompanies the manual, perhaps (even if it's just a PDF).

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Isn't that basically how NPC voice-over works?

NPC VO adds value for me because it adds expression. I don't read with tone. Text only has tone for me as an intellectual thing if I'm told the tone (e.g. I'm sorry, she said remorsefully). With or without that description, that "sounds" the same when I read it as "Today as tuesday the 22nd" or "That apple was tasty". With the line, I am at least aware the line was supposed to have been said remorsefully so I can have some meaningful reaction to it.

The codex is not emotive conversation, though. It is like having someone read an essay to you; boring and wasteful.

[PsychoBlonde]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

That's good. Nothing more annoying that putting up with a narrator that speaks at 1/3rd the speed you read.

Isn't that basically how NPC voice-over works?

Lol--except that they're also ACTING, giving the voiceover tone, texture, and character.  If they were just READING it in a monotone, this would be 100% accurate and HILARIOUS.

I find it interesting that the more modern view on emoting with acting is to speak slowly, though.  If you watch older movies, people talk quite fast (and can sometimes be hard to follow).  I could stand to see a bit more of that style, especially when people are delivering lines like "WILL YOU HURRY UP!!!!" and the likes.  They always sound a bit too laid-back to me in the game.

[Alodar]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

That's good. Nothing more annoying that putting up with a narrator that speaks at 1/3rd the speed you read.

Isn't that basically how NPC voice-over works?

Not if you are brave enough to turn off subtitles and allow yourself to be immersed in the game.




Alodar

[PsychoBlonde]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

It's the Kreia problem. Missing content because of the way I choose to RP is not fun, particularly if it adds depth to the world.

I think roleplaying properly (for that character) is fun in and of itself.  However...

Moreover, it may be information my character should know. A mage should know the Schools of Magic without having to have someone sit them down and start with, "As you know, the foundation of all magic...."

This was information that should have been available to the player prior to starting the game.  In a book of lore or something that accompanies the manual, perhaps (even if it's just a PDF).

Erm, it was.  On the website.  But every story has to introduce people to new info, that's why every story has an exposition, even if it's just "what are the names of these characters and what is their relationship to each other".  Weaving your exposition into the narrative is part of the skill of a writer, as well as deciding how much exposition is necessary.  All of these things are optional and the way you portray them can be as varied as the medium itself.  This is why I'm so opposed to this silly intrinsicism of "you must have a manual the size of a phone book" and "you must have a codex".  No, you must do what will make your game the best product you can produce according to your standards.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I think roleplaying properly (for that character) is fun in and of itself.  However...

The problem is that KoTOR II relied on certain NPC revelations for the plot to make sense. There is no problem, I think, with the PC being absolutely swept up by a plot he/she does not understand. Nevertheless, I insist that on a meta-game level, I as the player should be able to understand the plot of the game. KoTOR II was very bad at this.

This was information that should have been available to the player prior to starting the game.  In a book of lore or something that accompanies the manual, perhaps (even if it's just a PDF).

Yes, I agree completely. A major part of any RPG is the buy-in for the setting. It is very hard to do this when you are told nothing about the setting. Like the city elf. A dead mother (who trained you in fighting, no less) and a living father is a pretty important background bit that you should know before designing your character. 

I also wish we had more moments where the character could actually say a think he/she should know. I think the most brilliant line in ME1 was right at the start where Shepard could ask about the Terminus systems, and instead of being absolutely ignorant about the entire political situation despite it being his job, he can say "If the Terminus systems attacked it would be an act of war."

[Fortlowe]

Of course it doesn't 'need' a codex. It doesn't 'need' party banter. It doesn't 'need' a score. It doesn't 'need' approval ratings. The player does, becuase these things lend themselves to immersion into the narrative as does the Codex. Limbo was a brilliant game and it did not feature any of these devices. That it was brilliant in spite of those devices being missing in not a judgment on those them or Limbo. Only that for that game, they were not necessary. DA is a different animal. Those devices add to the setting. DA2's proposed narrative should give you a clue as to the nature of the narrative. That although the PC is the focus of the story, it is the very world of DA that is the star. So, supplemental information regarding that setting is vital to the narrative.

P.S.: I think I will be picking up the book pretty soon, by the way. I've heard good things.

Modifié par Fortlowe, 08 novembre 2010 - 10:07 .