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[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Toolset has Marjolaine as 37, though toolset ages are not always accurate.

Edit: For contrast, toolset has Leliana's age at 26.  

Alistair is the only companion's whose age was confirmed to be incorrect.

Ah I see.

There wouldn't something telling you Leliana's age when she joined the bard order correct? 

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Toolset has Marjolaine as 37, though toolset ages are not always accurate.

Edit: For contrast, toolset has Leliana's age at 26.  

Alistair is the only companion's whose age was confirmed to be incorrect.

Ah I see.

There wouldn't something telling you Leliana's age when she joined the bard order correct? 

No, there isn't.  Here is what it says about Leliana:

Leliana spent much of her life in the service of the Orlesian court as a bard -- an entertainer who traveled the land and doubled as a spy and sometimes assassin. Over time, her deeds left her with the feeling that she was not built for such a life. She felt guilty about the wrongs she had done, and eventually fled her masters in court. This meant secretly fleeing to the east and hiding out in a small convent in the Ferelden town of Lothering. There she found her calling, entering the sisterhood and beginning what she thought would be a life of religious contemplation and -- she hoped -- some measure of peace with her past. While there is a deeper side to her, a very spiritual side where she tries earnestly to look for meaning in even the most mundane things, on the surface she comes across as cheerful and witty and perhaps even a little flighty. Ultimately she is a voice of good and will try her best to steer others around her in the right direction.

This does not really describe what she says in game (that she stopped being a bard because of being framed).  It wasn't guilt that got her to leave the lifestyle -- I think that actually came later, after she escaped, and the full measure of what she had done came clear to her.

She did torture people.  She did murder people.  She may have preferred using sex and manipulation, but ultimately, she did what she had to do.  It was a life she choose to enter -- she was not sold as a slave.  She also had two years to come to terms with what she had done in the chantry.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

No, there isn't.  Here is what it says about Leliana:

Leliana spent much of her life in the service of the Orlesian court as a bard -- an entertainer who traveled the land and doubled as a spy and sometimes assassin. Over time, her deeds left her with the feeling that she was not built for such a life. She felt guilty about the wrongs she had done, and eventually fled her masters in court. This meant secretly fleeing to the east and hiding out in a small convent in the Ferelden town of Lothering. There she found her calling, entering the sisterhood and beginning what she thought would be a life of religious contemplation and -- she hoped -- some measure of peace with her past. While there is a deeper side to her, a very spiritual side where she tries earnestly to look for meaning in even the most mundane things, on the surface she comes across as cheerful and witty and perhaps even a little flighty. Ultimately she is a voice of good and will try her best to steer others around her in the right direction.

This does not really describe what she says in game (that she stopped being a bard because of being framed).  It wasn't guilt that got her to leave the lifestyle -- I think that actually came later, after she escaped, and the full measure of what she had done came clear to her.

She did torture people.  She did murder people.  She may have preferred using sex and manipulation, but ultimately, she did what she had to do.  It was a life she choose to enter -- she was not sold as a slave.  She also had two years to come to terms with what she had done in the chantry.

I never said she didn't. I simply said she may not have enjoyed doing it. (The torture not the manipulation). And let me not get into choices. Everyone has choices. Slaves included.

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

No, there isn't.  Here is what it says about Leliana:

Leliana spent much of her life in the service of the Orlesian court as a bard -- an entertainer who traveled the land and doubled as a spy and sometimes assassin. Over time, her deeds left her with the feeling that she was not built for such a life. She felt guilty about the wrongs she had done, and eventually fled her masters in court. This meant secretly fleeing to the east and hiding out in a small convent in the Ferelden town of Lothering. There she found her calling, entering the sisterhood and beginning what she thought would be a life of religious contemplation and -- she hoped -- some measure of peace with her past. While there is a deeper side to her, a very spiritual side where she tries earnestly to look for meaning in even the most mundane things, on the surface she comes across as cheerful and witty and perhaps even a little flighty. Ultimately she is a voice of good and will try her best to steer others around her in the right direction.

This does not really describe what she says in game (that she stopped being a bard because of being framed).  It wasn't guilt that got her to leave the lifestyle -- I think that actually came later, after she escaped, and the full measure of what she had done came clear to her.

She did torture people.  She did murder people.  She may have preferred using sex and manipulation, but ultimately, she did what she had to do.  It was a life she choose to enter -- she was not sold as a slave.  She also had two years to come to terms with what she had done in the chantry.

I never said she didn't. I simply said she may not have enjoyed doing it. (The torture not the manipulation). And let me not get into choices. Everyone has choices. Slaves included.

???  I never said you said otherwise?  I was talking about what was said in the toolset, and how I think some things changed since the character sketch was written.

She didn't enjoy it.  She still chose to do it.

As far as slaves having a choice, I assume you're talking about Zevran.  The moment he was given a real choice, he took it (joined the warden).  Which is actually pretty surprising, seeing as he was trained by all sorts of means including torture (though it's hard to say when the torture took place as there's only two references to it) from the time he was a small child to be what he was.

Anyway, this is about Leliana anyway

[Sarah1281]

Yes, technically a slave could choose to die instead of doing what they were told to which really is their only choice. I don't think it's really fair to expect them to make that choice. There's a reason someone committing a crime if there's a gun being held to their head (and they still chose to do it) is given leniency. And either way Leliana seems to have had far more of a choice than a slave does. She may have been ENCOURAGED to become a bard but if she did not then she would not have been tortured and/or killed.

[Ryzaki]

But its still a choice is my point. I personally think its fair and I understand why its given lienancy in the law but the fact remains that person choose to commit the crime rather than die. A sucky choice but one nonetheless.

Anyways on to Leliana true she did choose to become a bard just wonder if she knew all the requirements before hand or did Marjoline tell her to do it if "she loved her".That said she did choose to become a bard.

...Then again I am a fan of  ruthless females (probably why I harden her so often). So I'll admit my bias.

And I'm not going to start  on Zevran that never goes well.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 novembre 2010 - 05:06 .

[Sarah1281]

If even the Warden who has never even BEEN to Orlais could have heard rumors of bards being spies then she could hardly have avoided hearing at least that having lived in Orlais for most of her life.

[ejoslin]

The Orlesean bards are really well known. Even Alistair had heard of them and knows what they do, and he had had a very sheltered existence in Ferelden.  Someone raised by a noble woman in Orlais would most likely know perfectly well what a bard is.

I'm not sure you can say a 7 year old has much of a choice in anything. And when you have someone that young to mold, especially if they've had a pretty horrible life before then as well, it's VERY easy to raise someone to be ruthless. It's not even a matter of breaking an older person -- it's taking a child and showing them absolute ugliest life has to offer, and seeing most people you know actually die (only the very strongest survive). I don't think the crow assassins really have much choice. That doesn't mean many of them are redeemable, however. Most probably are too far gone.

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 novembre 2010 - 05:07 .

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

If even the Warden who has never even BEEN to Orlais could have heard rumors of bards being spies then she could hardly have avoided hearing at least that having lived in Orlais for most of her life.

So you think all spies torture people? 


And once again we don't know how young Leliana became a bard either. She could've been an impressionable and stupid teenager for all we known and grew used to it. She did spend most of her life in the bard order as well and that would shape her views as well.

She spent most of her life in there she's only 26. Even if she spent at least half her life there she'd have been at least 13.

I don't know about you but I was very impressionable at 13. And there's a good chance she was even younger because half of someone's life isn't most. I could very easily see her as a young girl charmed by the mystique of the bards and how charming and seductive they could be. I could see her dismissing their dirtier jobs out f hand when she first went to join them.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 novembre 2010 - 05:11 .

[ejoslin]

There is still a huge difference, but not if you don't want to see it. That Marjolaine manipulated her? No doubt about it. That Leliana chose the lifestyle, absolutely, no matter what the reason. That she saw how wrong she was? Of course she did, though she never does seem to show much remorse over her individual victims.

Edit: And putting her at 13 -- there's no indication of that at all.  I assumed she had spent most of her adult life as a bard, and entered the chantry to get away.  It didn't seem like she had spent her teenage years as a bard, though I suppose anything is possible.  You think she would have mentioned that part, though, if it were true.

Second edit: And there is STILL a huge difference and she still made a choice.  A stupid one, but a choice she was free to make nonetheless.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 novembre 2010 - 05:12 .

[Sarah1281]

So you think all spies torture people?

Did I say that? No, no I did not. I feel that Leliana, living in Orlais where everyone knows of bards and nobles are fully aware the minstrel they invited into their court could be a bard, knew even more about them than the Warden living elsewhere heard. If she decided to jump into the bardic lifestyle without bothering to learn that assassination and torture may be necessary then she should have thought more about her life choices and I don't feel that's a defense.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

There is still a huge difference, but not if you don't want to see it. That Marjolaine manipulated her? No doubt about it. That Leliana chose the lifestyle, absolutely, no matter what the reason. That she saw how wrong she was? Of course she did, though she never does seem to show much remorse over her individual victims.

True she never does seem to show any remorse. (which frankly is what I would've wanted to see...either that or have her be a cold calculating intelligent woman. Ra forbid we have those.). 

Though does she ever discuss individual victims? I know she enjoyed playing the game (the manipulation bit) but I ever hear her enjoyment about hurting people. She actually says she disliked hurting people.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

So you think all spies torture people?

Did I say that? No, no I did not. I feel that Leliana, living in Orlais where everyone knows of bards and nobles are fully aware the minstrel they invited into their court could be a bard, knew even more about them than the Warden living elsewhere heard. If she decided to jump into the bardic lifestyle without bothering to learn that assassination and torture may be necessary then she should have thought more about her life choices and I don't feel that's a defense.

So...a 13 year old doesn't think out their actions clearly so they're completely to blame for everything that happened.

Maybe maybe not. But at that age I've seen very few people clearly think their actions through.

Edit: And putting her at 13 -- there's no indication of that at all.  I
assumed she had spent most of her adult life as a bard, and entered the
chantry to get away.  It didn't seem like she had spent her teenage
years as a bard, though I suppose anything is possible.  You think she
would have mentioned that part, though, if it were true.

Doesn't it mention she spent half her life? I think the toolset would've clarified it had it been needed. Wouldn't it have been since she was an adult or some such?

Half of someone's life doesn't usually mean their adult life. And maybe she would've just seen it as unimportant. (She certainly doesn't clarify the average age of a bard and if they're believed to be retired at 37....)

Second edit: And there is STILL a huge difference and she still made
a choice.  A stupid one, but a choice she was free to make nonetheless.

And so did everyone else in the game. A choice being stupid or having a chance of being lethal doesn't stop it from being a choice.

Edit: That said I am bias. So maybe I should stop.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 novembre 2010 - 05:25 .

[Sarah1281]

You can't say 'Leliana didn't fully understand what she was doing because she was 13.' You're pulling 13 out of thin air. For all we know, Leliana was 19 when she decided to become a bard.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

You can't say 'Leliana didn't fully understand what she was doing because she was 13.' You're pulling 13 out of thin air. For all we know, Leliana was 19 when she decided to become a bard.

I'm pulling 13 out of half her life. She's 26. She spent most of her life as a bard. There's no more cause to believe its half her adult life than half her actual life.

For all we know she was 12 and heck maybe she might've been 18. But given Leliana I'd take it as she'd been doing it a very long time.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 novembre 2010 - 05:30 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

You can't say 'Leliana didn't fully understand what she was doing because she was 13.' You're pulling 13 out of thin air. For all we know, Leliana was 19 when she decided to become a bard.

I'm pulling 13 out of half her life. She's 26. There's no more cause to believe its half her adult life than half her actual life.

Except she doesn't mention it at all.  When talking about her childhood and how she was raised, she doesn't bring up the fact that she was still a young girl when becoming a bard (which you think may have come up if it were the case).

Also, I don't get the impression she was a bard for 10+ years.  13 is a strawman.  She may have been.  But there is no indication of that at ALL.

Edit: DAO allows you to fill in a lot of details for yourself.  But I would think if the writers wanted to portray Leliana as a victim to that extent, there would have been some reference to it.

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 novembre 2010 - 05:32 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Except she doesn't mention it at all.  When talking about her childhood and how she was raised, she doesn't bring up the fact that she was still a young girl when becoming a bard.

Also, I don't get the impression she was a bard for 10+ years.  13 is a strawman.  She may have been.  But there is no indication of that at ALL.

Yup but there's no indication that she wasn't.

I get the feeling she's been doing it for a while. Well o me personally it makes the whole Marjoline incident more personal but that's just me filling in the blanks. I saw her as a young girl who fel in love with a mysterious and intelligent woman and would do anything to please her.

Though...how is that a strawman? We don't know Leliana's age when she became a bard so either side could be right. (I really wish someone from BW could chime in here).

If she was an adult it was a something she choose to do. Lots of people make decisions that hurt others and that was her choice. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 novembre 2010 - 05:35 .

[ejoslin]

BW won't. But keep this in mind -- Leliana's story was one of a young woman who fell in love with the wrong person, ended up manipulated then betrayed. It really doesn't sound like she was a bard for over a decade. It's not a story of childhood abuse.



Having a 13 year old become a bard becomes a far different story than the one above, really.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

BW won't. But keep this in mind -- Leliana's story was one of a young woman who fell in love with the wrong person, ended up manipulated then betrayed. It really doesn't sound like she was a bard for over a decade. It's not a story of childhood abuse.

Having a 13 year old become a bard becomes a far different story than the one above, really.

I suppose so. Though I don't know I prefer the thought of her being really young. I guess I've gotten to used to books with my female heroines growing up as spies being combed for the role (though they are much stronger characters than Leliana). It makes an interesting tale. They're always either 13 or 16 never much older than that. Still young, impressionable and reckless. Then they get swarmed and they end up trying to find enjoyment in it or running away.

Though I wouldn't be suprised if they took out mentions of her younger age due to the morality police with underaged sex.

...How long was she with Cecile anyways? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 novembre 2010 - 05:41 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

BW won't. But keep this in mind -- Leliana's story was one of a young woman who fell in love with the wrong person, ended up manipulated then betrayed. It really doesn't sound like she was a bard for over a decade. It's not a story of childhood abuse.

Having a 13 year old become a bard becomes a far different story than the one above, really.

I suppose so. Though I don't know I prefer the thought of her being really young.

...How long was she with Cecile anyways? 

You know her mother died when she was a young child.  She was old enough to have some vague memories, so older than a toddler.  Lady Cecile raised her, and had her taught in music and dance.  Most likely for her entertainment.  She has fond memories of her for sure.  

And I understand why you prefer her younger -- it makes Leliana far more sympathetic.  It changes the story considerably -- from a young woman betrayed by her lover to a young girl, abused and exploited by someone much older.  It makes her story far closer to Zevran's (minus the torture and such), but with her already on the road to redemption.

[Sarah1281]

The problem with you using your own personal age for Leliana being a bard (13) is that you're acting like it is a fact that she was so young when responding about how much of a choice she had and how much she knew which, as ejoslin said, is far different than had she been 18 and then decided to turn her minstrel talents towards being a bard.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The problem with you using your own personal age for Leliana being a bard (13) is that you're acting like it is a fact that she was so young when responding about how much of a choice she had and how much she knew which, as ejoslin said, is far different than had she been 18 and then decided to turn her minstrel talents towards being a bard.

True it isn't. Neither not fact that she was much older either. We don't know.

So yes her age does make the choice widely different.

[nubbers666]

as alistair pointed out when you frist met her

and here i thought we were all filled up on crazy lol



i rather have fun toying with her

as for others id assume it was becuase shes a easy lay lol

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...
You know her mother died when she was a young child.  She was old enough to have some vague memories, so older than a toddler.  Lady Cecile raised her, and had her taught in music and dance.  Most likely for her entertainment.  She has fond memories of her for sure.  

And I understand why you prefer her younger -- it makes Leliana far more sympathetic.  It changes the story considerably -- from a young woman betrayed by her lover to a young girl, abused and exploited by someone much older.  It makes her story far closer to Zevran's (minus the torture and such), but with her already on the road to redemption.

True...very young. We still don't know when she left to become a bard though.

And yes I do and yes it does become eeriely similar to Zevrans. 

I'm not big on the redemption thing though. My issue isn't with Zev being an assassin. Its about Zev being a wishy assassin. He's complicated and that's fine but I'm not too fond of the hurting man needs a good woman to heal him (nor the opposite really tis why I don't like Jack).

Just once I'd like a morally grey LI who doesn't have to blame an abused childhod for their actions (looks at Miranda longingly). ...Not being complete tool would be a plus.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 novembre 2010 - 05:48 .

[ejoslin]

The major reason I think Leliana is older is because her story, the one she tells, is more in line with a young woman doing what she does for love, not a young girl being exploited. Her being younger puts a more tragic spin on it than was put in by the writers.



That doesn't mean you can't see it differently. But there is more indication that she was older, just by the nature of her story itself.