498 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

The major reason I think Leliana is older is because her story, the one she tells, is more in line with a young woman doing what she does for love, not a young girl being exploited. Her being younger puts a more tragic spin on it than was put in by the writers.

That doesn't mean you can't see it differently. But there is more indication that she was older, just by the nature of her story itself.

Ah true.

...And I really wish she hadn't done it for love but because she wanted too. I like darker protagonsts (with brains) Leliana would've been the perfect pragamatic but beautiful and polite LI. Charming, seductive and willing to rip your heart out if she had too all those things Morrigan claims to be.

Alas. They decided to force her to be perfectly nice that I find myself twisting her backstory to make it seem more sensible to me.

Also sure she's a hypocrite an sure some of her ideas about the maker make me sigh (I don't understand how people hate her because she's religious though. I guess there's militant atheists too. Makes me sad because those are the ones that give the rest of us a bad name ) and she can act a bit airheaded I still enjoy dragging her around everywhere. And I do try to harden her as soon as possible so.

So my apologies ejoslin, sarah about the whole 13 thing.

That said she made a very bad decision joining the bard order and one would say she paid part of it when she was betrayed by Marjoline. So I think that is why I sort of like her. 

Though her suicide if the Warden commits the US is pretty wallbangerish.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 novembre 2010 - 06:06 .

[ejoslin]

edit: Deleted Zevran squee.  NOT the place for it

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 novembre 2010 - 05:57 .

[Ryzaki]

Edit: Oh...Never mind then.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 novembre 2010 - 06:01 .

[naledgeborn]

IIRC
Warden: You seem to know a lot about bards.
Leliana: And I should having spent half of my adult life as one...
As pertaining to the current discussion, the keyword is adult. So assuming adulthood is 18 she's been a bard 5 years give or take.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 13 novembre 2010 - 06:22 .

[maxernst]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

The major reason I think Leliana is older is because her story, the one she tells, is more in line with a young woman doing what she does for love, not a young girl being exploited. Her being younger puts a more tragic spin on it than was put in by the writers.

That doesn't mean you can't see it differently. But there is more indication that she was older, just by the nature of her story itself.

Ah true.

...And I really wish she hadn't done it for love but because she wanted too. I like darker protagonsts (with brains) Leliana would've been the perfect pragamatic but beautiful and polite LI. Charming, seductive and willing to rip your heart out if she had too all those things Morrigan claims to be.

Alas. They decided to force her to be perfectly nice that I find myself twisting her backstory to make it seem more sensible to me.

I'm not that convinced that she really is perfectly nice.  In some ways I see her as having parallels with Morrigan.  Both of them want you to believe certain things about them, and maybe they want to believe those things about themselves.  But that doesn't make them true.

[ejoslin]

naledgeborn wrote...

IIRC
Warden: You seem to know a lot about bards.
Leliana: And I should having spent half of my adult life as one...
As pertaining to the current discussion, the keyword is adult. So assuming adulthood is 18 she's been a bard 5 years give or take.

Ooooh, you're right.  Gah, here's the exact quote.  Thank you so much!

Warden: You seem to know quite a bit about these bards.
Leliana: <desc>Sigh</desc> And I should, shouldn't I, after having spent most of my adult life as one. You've guessed as much, I'm sure. (Reluctant admittance.)

You know, I've never selected that dialog choice.

Edit: Leliana has a very sweet personality.  I have to agree I'm not sure that translates into "nice."

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 novembre 2010 - 06:27 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

IIRC
Warden: You seem to know a lot about bards.
Leliana: And I should having spent half of my adult life as one...
As pertaining to the current discussion, the keyword is adult. So assuming adulthood is 18 she's been a bard 5 years give or take.

Ooooh, you're right.  Gah, here's the exact quote.  Thank you so much!

Warden: You seem to know quite a bit about these bards.
Leliana: Sigh And I should, shouldn't I, after having spent most of my adult life as one. You've guessed as much, I'm sure. (Reluctant admittance.)

You know, I've never selected that dialog choice.

Edit: Leliana has a very sweet personality.  I have to agree I'm not sure that translates into "nice."

Oh my bad. I bow then and apologize.

Gah. I never pick that choice because my PCs always see it as obvious that she's a bard at that point.

And yes Leliana is nice. A bit too nice for me when she's unhardened. She tastes like diabetes at times. Yes I know I like Alistair but he can get really pissed off. I've never seen Leliana mad (except at the urn which even my more atheist of PCs can't really destroy because to them it makes no damn sense. They do tend to be the more logical of my PCs.) I had one but he was just a douche. And an agnostic. She's not even pissed with Marjoline see seems more upset to me. (wasn't even strong enough to decide to kill the woman or not on her own either urgh.) 

Still I can't hate her for becoming a bard. Someone has to do it after all.

I just wish she wasn't so goody goody.  Her whole redemption would make more sense to me if she no longer looked back at manipulating her targets in a positive light. Yet she does.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 novembre 2010 - 06:54 .

[ok go]

i cant take Leliana romance serious, its fun flirting with her ut no relationship for me

she obviously cant get over Marjolaine and prolly loves Marjolaine more then she will the warden. its like Leliana throws herself at the warden in an attempt to get over Marjolaine.

her suicide is a combo of marjolaine's death and the wardens.  first time i dumped her for Morrigan i thought she was going to commit suicide.

harden Lel may be fun but she cant make up her mind hardened

i only romance Leliana now for laughs and my male wardens are usually horndogs

Modifié par ok go, 14 novembre 2010 - 05:59 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Hit the shift key once in a while Mr Troll.



Its quite easy unless someone cut your little fingers off.

[ok go]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Hit the shift key once in a while Mr Troll.

Its quite easy unless someone cut your little fingers off.

please do not call people trolls it derails the thread

[Giggles_Manically]

Please try to use proper grammar, because yours makes small children and teachers cry.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 14 novembre 2010 - 07:24 .

[ok go]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Please try to use proper grammar, because yours makes small children and teachers cry.

nize gramerz

[Giggles_Manically]

ok go wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Please try to use proper grammar, because yours makes small children and teachers cry.

nize gramerz

Its 135 AM over here.

Plus I cant turn auto-spell checker off for some reason on Google Chrome, its rather annoying.

Still compared to you a monkey that just got back from a lobotomy can type better.

[ok go]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

ok go wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Please try to use proper grammar, because yours makes small children and teachers cry.

nize gramerz

Its 135 AM over here.

Plus I cant turn auto-spell checker off for some reason on Google Chrome, its rather annoying.

Still compared to you a monkey that just got back from a lobotomy can type better.

thx ive been compared to far worse

but......

this thread is rather productive and noone is really insulting leliana

[EccentricSage]

For the record, weather Lelliana enjoyed torture or not, if she's implying she did or would do it if need be, then she's guilty. My issue with Lel is that she didn't HAVE to. She CHOSE to become a Bard, and to harm others for Marjolain. I consider that a huge character flaw in a person. A deal breaker, really.



As for religion... I don't have the dialogue options for that conversation memorized. I don't think it's wrong to politely disagree with her, or to philosophically debate her regarding religion. If she wants to go around proselytizing then she needs to learn to not be offended if people don't see things the same way. Zevran for example is also religious, but he only brings it up once with Alistair, and does not try to get others to agree with his views, merely lets it be known that he does have faith. There's a big difference.



So yes, a see proselytizing and not wanting to hear what others have to say when they don't see things the same way as her to be a big flaw. I loved it when Lelliana invoked the Maker at the Dalish camp and Morrigan rebuked her, pointing out that they have their own deities. It's one of the things about Lelliana that consistantly made me cringe.

[naledgeborn]

As far as Leliana goes, like others said she doesn't seem to be over Marjolaine. I harden her, have sex with her, then initiate the Morrigan romance than dump her. She's obviously more into women.

As far as her vision - The Guardian of the Gauntlet says it all. She's a Bard. She was betrayed and heart broken and clings to The Maker and the Chantry like it's the ultimate rebound. But she gets bored. In her denial of actually enjoying being an assassin she concocts a delusion that The Maker wants her to be a bard again so that she has an excuse to leave the cloister.



Just my $0.02

[Wulfram]

Leliana doesn't proselytize.  She talks about the Maker a lot because He's important to her, but she doesn't expect people to believe the same as her.

[Sarah1281]

I think it's fine to disagree with her (and I don't think she really disapproves of that) but the 'why fight darkspawn, the Maker created them' conversation seems kind of out of line. It's like asking a religious person IRL who is researching cancer why they want to cure that since God must have created it and therefore curing it goes against His will. The person in question will get pissed at you and justifiably so.

[TJPags]

Wulfram wrote...

Leliana doesn't proselytize.  She talks about the Maker a lot because He's important to her, but she doesn't expect people to believe the same as her.

Very true, and this part of her character never bothers me.

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think it's fine to disagree with her (and I don't think she really disapproves of that) but the 'why fight darkspawn, the Maker created them' conversation seems kind of out of line. It's like asking a religious person IRL who is researching cancer why they want to cure that since God must have created it and therefore curing it goes against His will. The person in question will get pissed at you and justifiably so.

I think you hit on a very good analogy.  And while someone with faith may, indeed, get very pissed at me for asking that question, that doesn't change that it may be a valid one.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think it's fine to disagree with her (and I don't think she really disapproves of that) but the 'why fight darkspawn, the Maker created them' conversation seems kind of out of line. It's like asking a religious person IRL who is researching cancer why they want to cure that since God must have created it and therefore curing it goes against His will. The person in question will get pissed at you and justifiably so.

This so much. It's rude. It doesn't matter if you don't agree with them but some things you just don't say if you want to have a civil conversation.

And like I said everyone in that game in my mind had choices. Some less so than others.

Though maybe dog is the acception. Would explain why he's the sanest member of the group.

[ok go]

naledgeborn wrote...

As far as Leliana goes, like others said she doesn't seem to be over Marjolaine. I harden her, have sex with her, then initiate the Morrigan romance than dump her. She's obviously more into women.
As far as her vision - The Guardian of the Gauntlet says it all. She's a Bard. She was betrayed and heart broken and clings to The Maker and the Chantry like it's the ultimate rebound. But she gets bored. In her denial of actually enjoying being an assassin she concocts a delusion that The Maker wants her to be a bard again so that she has an excuse to leave the cloister.

Just my $0.02

i agree with this statement, i couldnt take her m/f romance serious just because she was obviously more into relationships with women.  i can see here having sex with more men then women but as far as relationships she was in love with her mentor.

leliana is in denial about her past, even though in acouple convos she giggles about her past

[andysdead]

TJPags wrote...

Jon Jern wrote...

Does vanilla Leliana have red hair, or orange hair?

Seems red to me, more than it seems reddish orange . . .which is actually not a good color hair to have . . . .

I always figured it was supposed to be strawberry blonde, like the good little French girl she is.

[EccentricSage]

Wulfram wrote...

Leliana doesn't proselytize.  She talks about the Maker a lot because He's important to her, but she doesn't expect people to believe the same as her.

Then why does she pester the hell out of Morrigan about it?  I think it's easy for you if you are religious, to hand wave it as normal, but to someone who's not religous and doesn't care for being pestered by a self rightous person pretending to be pristine when she is not, Lel is grating.  She may be overly sugary in her manner, but that does not change what it is.

As for those who maintain that it is rude to point out a flaw in a religious person's logic, I consider it a flaw to maintain flawed logic, and to fear calling it into question.  I'd just as soon have religious people keep their devotion to themselves, and I'll keep my skepticism about their religion to myself, and then no one has to be bothered.  To be offended that someone points out that an aspect of your faith is contradictory and not defend your faith with a logical rebuke shows weekness, which is also a flaw.

[EccentricSage]

naledgeborn wrote...

As far as Leliana goes, like others said she doesn't seem to be over Marjolaine. I harden her, have sex with her, then initiate the Morrigan romance than dump her. She's obviously more into women.
As far as her vision - The Guardian of the Gauntlet says it all. She's a Bard. She was betrayed and heart broken and clings to The Maker and the Chantry like it's the ultimate rebound. But she gets bored. In her denial of actually enjoying being an assassin she concocts a delusion that The Maker wants her to be a bard again so that she has an excuse to leave the cloister.

Just my $0.02

You put it perfectly. 

[Ryzaki]

EccentricSage wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Leliana doesn't proselytize.  She talks about the Maker a lot because He's important to her, but she doesn't expect people to believe the same as her.

Then why does she pester the hell out of Morrigan about it?  I think it's easy for you if you are religious, to hand wave it as normal, but to someone who's not religous and doesn't care for being pestered by a self rightous person pretending to be pristine when she is not, Lel is grating.  She may be overly sugary in her manner, but that does not change what it is.

As for those who maintain that it is rude to point out a flaw in a religious person's logic, I consider it a flaw to maintain flawed logic, and to fear calling it into question.  I'd just as soon have religious people keep their devotion to themselves, and I'll keep my skepticism about their religion to myself, and then no one has to be bothered.  To be offended that someone points out that an aspect of your faith is contradictory and not defend your faith with a logical rebuke shows weekness, which is also a flaw.

For her to bring it up in the first place you talked to her.   She doesn't ask you if you believe in the maker she does says she does. And how the lay sisters treated her due to her views. If you see that as someone shoving their religion on you...

Also I'm an atheist. I've seen atheists pestering religious people and vice versa. It's not something that's just a "religion thing" it's a person tryig to get someone else on their side thing. It's grating regardless. I was just as annoyed by Morrigan's power and surivival convo. No Morrigan I'm not a survivalist, no that doesn't make me weak.

How was her logic flawed? She saw the Blight as being something the Maker wanted his children to end. We don't know if she thinks its supposed to punish all of humanity. People have different interpretations of their gods and they have evrey right to include that interpration. It would be as if you called Zevran a false believer in the maker because he repents but goes on sinning.

So that logical rebuke may not be logical at all other than you shoving the Chantry views in her face. That's what makes it rude.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 novembre 2010 - 08:36 .