498 réponses à ce sujet

[Lenimph]

EccentricSage wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Leliana doesn't proselytize.  She talks about the Maker a lot because He's important to her, but she doesn't expect people to believe the same as her.

Then why does she pester the hell out of Morrigan about it? 

Probably because she doesn't just like Morrigan...

And anyway she doesn't proselytize the warden even if the warden is Dalish.

Modifié par Lenimph, 14 novembre 2010 - 08:16 .

[naledgeborn]

Thread is derailing but.... I'm a 'natural' Muslim. I converted when I was 14. The only people that know this is my wife, mother, and father. I keep it to myself because it's MY faith and even then I take that with a grain of salt. If people would keep that **** to themselves whether Atheist, Agnostic, Theist, or Pan-theist world would be a better place.

[Wulfram]

EccentricSage wrote...

Then why does she pester the hell out of Morrigan about it?  I think it's easy for you if you are religious, to hand wave it as normal, but to someone who's not religous and doesn't care for being pestered by a self rightous person pretending to be pristine when she is not, Lel is grating.  She may be overly sugary in her manner, but that does not change what it is.

Because she's baffled by the idea that someone really doesn't believe in some sort of higher power.  She's not trying to convert Morrigan, she's trying to understand.  It would certainly be annoying, but it's not proselytising.

[Ryzaki]

naledgeborn wrote...

Thread is derailing but.... I'm a 'natural' Muslim. I converted when I was 14. The only people that know this is my wife, mother, and father. I keep it to myself because it's MY faith and even then I take that with a grain of salt. If people would keep that **** to themselves whether Atheist, Agnostic, Theist, or Pan-theist world would be a better place.

This I agree with. I hate pushy religious people just as much as pushy atheists. They're equally annoying.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 novembre 2010 - 08:33 .

[ok go]

naledgeborn wrote...

Thread is derailing but.... I'm a 'natural' Muslim. I converted when I was 14. The only people that know this is my wife, mother, and father. I keep it to myself because it's MY faith and even then I take that with a grain of salt. If people would keep that **** to themselves whether Atheist, Agnostic, Theist, or Pan-theist world would be a better place.

i feel the same way, i like keeping my christianity to myself.  Leliana kept asking party members if they believe in the maker, and in one bugged banter she gets upset at alistair for teasing her about the maker and says thats heresy. she really needed to rethink her whole religious philosphy(spelled wrong) 

Modifié par ok go, 14 novembre 2010 - 08:35 .

[Ryzaki]

ok go wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Thread is derailing but.... I'm a 'natural' Muslim. I converted when I was 14. The only people that know this is my wife, mother, and father. I keep it to myself because it's MY faith and even then I take that with a grain of salt. If people would keep that **** to themselves whether Atheist, Agnostic, Theist, or Pan-theist world would be a better place.

i feel the same way, i like keeping my christianity to myself.  Leliana kept asking party members if they believe in the maker, and in one bugged banter she gets upset at alistair for teasing her about the maker and says thats heresy. she really needed to rethink her whole religious philosphy(spelled wrong) 

I missed this.

How does the whole convo go? 

[ok go]

plus thinking someone believes in the maker because they are old is kinda immature

[ok go]

Ryzaki wrote...

ok go wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Thread is derailing but.... I'm a 'natural' Muslim. I converted when I was 14. The only people that know this is my wife, mother, and father. I keep it to myself because it's MY faith and even then I take that with a grain of salt. If people would keep that **** to themselves whether Atheist, Agnostic, Theist, or Pan-theist world would be a better place.

i feel the same way, i like keeping my christianity to myself.  Leliana kept asking party members if they believe in the maker, and in one bugged banter she gets upset at alistair for teasing her about the maker and says thats heresy. she really needed to rethink her whole religious philosphy(spelled wrong) 

I missed this.

How does the whole convo go? 

listen to this link

[ejoslin]

Alistair: So let me get this straight. You think the Maker actually spoke to you? Gave you a mission? (he's not sure what to think about it)
Leliana: Who told you that? Was it Him? Are you two talking about me behind my back? (him = God, she's a bit surprised)
Alistair: Calm down. I'm just curious. People have claimed that the Maker has talked to them before. Hundreds, all recorded in the Chantry archives. But they were all... (but they were all CRAZY)
Leliana: Crazy? You don't think that I've asked myself that once or twice? (amused)
Alistair: You've asked yourself that? And what did the Maker have to say about it? (incredulous)
Leliana: I received visions. It is not as if the Maker and I... chat about everything in my life. (punch "chat")
Alistair: Oh, I don't know. From what I hear, the Maker's not up to much these days. Just twiddles his thumbs, really. (amused)
Leliana: That's heresy! And you're making fun of me now. Please stop. (giggling)

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 novembre 2010 - 08:44 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Alistair: So let me get this straight. You think the Maker actually spoke to you? Gave you a mission? (he's not sure what to think about it)
Leliana: Who told you that? Was it Him? Are you two talking about me behind my back? (him = God, she's a bit surprised)
Alistair: Calm down. I'm just curious. People have claimed that the Maker has talked to them before. Hundreds, all recorded in the Chantry archives. But they were all... (but they were all CRAZY)
Leliana: Crazy? You don't think that I've asked myself that once or twice? (amused)
Alistair: You've asked yourself that? And what did the Maker have to say about it? (incredulous)
Leliana: I received visions. It is not as if the Maker and I... chat about everything in my life. (punch "chat")
Alistair: Oh, I don't know. From what I hear, the Maker's not up to much these days. Just twiddles his thumbs, really. (amused)
Leliana: That's heresy! And you're making fun of me now. Please stop. (giggling)

I had just found it and was about to post it up.

But...she's obviouly playing with Alistair

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 novembre 2010 - 08:45 .

[Ryzaki]

ok go wrote...

plus thinking someone believes in the maker because they are old is kinda immature

Huh? 

[ok go]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Alistair: So let me get this straight. You think the Maker actually spoke to you? Gave you a mission? (he's not sure what to think about it)
Leliana: Who told you that? Was it Him? Are you two talking about me behind my back? (him = God, she's a bit surprised)
Alistair: Calm down. I'm just curious. People have claimed that the Maker has talked to them before. Hundreds, all recorded in the Chantry archives. But they were all... (but they were all CRAZY)
Leliana: Crazy? You don't think that I've asked myself that once or twice? (amused)
Alistair: You've asked yourself that? And what did the Maker have to say about it? (incredulous)
Leliana: I received visions. It is not as if the Maker and I... chat about everything in my life. (punch "chat")
Alistair: Oh, I don't know. From what I hear, the Maker's not up to much these days. Just twiddles his thumbs, really. (amused)
Leliana: That's heresy! And you're making fun of me now. Please stop. (giggling)

I had just found it and was about to post it up.

But...she's obviouly playing with Alistair

yea but she is obviously uptight about her faith

[ok go]

Ryzaki wrote...

ok go wrote...

plus thinking someone believes in the maker because they are old is kinda immature

Huh? 

her convo with wynne

[Ryzaki]

ok go wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Alistair: So let me get this straight. You think the Maker actually spoke to you? Gave you a mission? (he's not sure what to think about it)
Leliana: Who told you that? Was it Him? Are you two talking about me behind my back? (him = God, she's a bit surprised)
Alistair: Calm down. I'm just curious. People have claimed that the Maker has talked to them before. Hundreds, all recorded in the Chantry archives. But they were all... (but they were all CRAZY)
Leliana: Crazy? You don't think that I've asked myself that once or twice? (amused)
Alistair: You've asked yourself that? And what did the Maker have to say about it? (incredulous)
Leliana: I received visions. It is not as if the Maker and I... chat about everything in my life. (punch "chat")
Alistair: Oh, I don't know. From what I hear, the Maker's not up to much these days. Just twiddles his thumbs, really. (amused)
Leliana: That's heresy! And you're making fun of me now. Please stop. (giggling)

I had just found it and was about to post it up.

But...she's obviouly playing with Alistair

yea but she is obviously uptight about her faith

I didn't see that but when itomes to asking people personal questions about religion I recall Zevran asking Alistair if he believed in the Maker (asked Ali if he was a "religious man".) And get just as annoyd as Ali calls out his lack o logic as Leliana does.

Really though there are plenty of characters that get uppity about the whole religion thing (looks at Lady Marrol in the HN origin).

Wynne? I thought she assumed she believed in the Maker because she was in the tower with those Templars all those years.

Edit: Wow. Did you twist that convo. It wasn't because of Wynne's age but because of the way she treated people. She even goes on to apologize and say how claiming to be religious doesn't make you a good person (with her mockery of the two ladies who tried to outbid each other).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 novembre 2010 - 09:11 .

[Sarah1281]

Well, regardless of what Leliana thought about it, I don't think that it was a 'loving romance' for the woman who cheerfully had her tortured for a crime Marjolaine committed and no one even knew about.

[ok go]

i think marjolaine looked at her more pleasurable way then romantic. she made a comment about "you are my favorite" which means she had multiple flings, and she was having an affair with Raleigh.

Modifié par ok go, 14 novembre 2010 - 11:02 .

[EccentricSage]

Ok, don't have time to go into too much depth right now.



I also find it irritating when Atheists pester religious and spiritual people. I'm all for discussing such topics on equal standing ground, but to pester someone who was not trying to engage in such discourse is obnoxious and rude.



Thing is, I argue with Morrigan quite a bit, too. Probably even more than Lel. I like Morrigan better because I think she's stronger and has more substance to her. But that is my opinion and preference. I'm not arguing that Lelliana is the only one with flaws, or that she's the only one to engage in certain behaviors. This started when the one poster said Lelliana is bordering on Marry Sue due to lack of flaws, and I argued that she does have flaws just as all the characters do.



I think now that we're a good page or two away from the start of the conversation, people are loosing perspective on the point of the conversation. Lelliana, like the other characters, has character flaws, as in personality flaws real people would exhibit, and thus is not a Marry Sue and does have depth. I do not like her, and find the flaws I see in her more grating than those of some of the others, but as I have already acknowledged, different things bother different people, and to different extents.



As for the argument with Lel in game, I thought it was funny more than anything. I'd have to replay it or find it on youtube to get the feel for the tone of the conversation. What I do remember was when I was playing a Dalish, her conversations about religion and about elves in Orlais were distinctly uncomfortable to sit through, but my Dalish was a friendly peace maker and tried to be gentle with her. My mage elf, on the other hand, had nothing personal against Lelliana, but found her a bit annoying. She's the one who made the hypothetical argument about the blight, to see how Lel would bounce back from that. She was not surprised nor impressed by her reaction.



As for Zevran's religious discussion with Alistair, I loved it, because I thought Alistair needed to hear it. Even though he disliked being in the Chantry and claims not to be religious, he still kind of blindly lets their teachings color his views. There was also Alistair's little pissing contest dialogue, where he's pestering Zev about how he's not a good assassin. So when Zev came back around on him with that, I thought it was great. It kind of showed Alistair that his assumptions aren't always true, and that he does not know or understand his companions. I'd been wanting to have a talk with him about that self righteous bent of his myself. Alistair kind of had it coming. And besides, his closing statement that maybe Alistair should ask for forgiveness came off as snark, to me. Alistair looked down upon Zev, and Zev kind of put him in his place. They seem to get along a lot better in later banters, especially some of the bugged ones. OK, I'm kind of veering off into a very special brand of squee... Zevran Alistair hybridized squee. Be afraid. lol

[Ryzaki]

Nah according to the toolset Zevran was annoyed in that part of the conversation. Not friendly snark and he starts the convo in the first place.

Zevran: So are you a very religious man, Alistair? I am curious. I believe I heard you say you were raised in an abbey? (curious)

Alistiair: I was raised in a castle. I was schooled in the abbey. As far as being religious... I don't know. Not especially.

What about you? Not in your line of work, I expect..

Zevran: Why do you say that? I happen to be quite devoted, in my way, as most Antivans are. (surprised)

Alistair: Truly? But you kill people. For money. (shocked) 

Zevran: And I ask forgiveness for my sins from the Maker every chance I get. What manner of monster do you think I am? (a bit affronted) 

Alistair: But... you ask forgiveness and then you go right on with your sinning! ( a bit baffled)

Zevran: The Maker has never objected. Why should you? (annoyed)

Alistair: I... have no idea. (blown away -- he can't even think of an argument)

Zevran: Well there you go. Perhaps you ought to think about asking for a little forgiveness yourself, hm? (a little offended by Alistair's "self-righteousness", scolding him)

I frankly thought Ali needed to hear it too. But I still find it illogical and hypocritical that Zevran worships a maker that he knows doesn't approve of his actions, seeks forgiveness and goes right back to doing said actions.And I didn't find Alistair being selfrighteous at all. (And I wonder why it's in quotes is it because it's assumed by Zevran or for emphasis?)

That said yes Leliana has some serious flaws but I love her all the more for them. I just don't see being touchy about her religion as being one of them.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 novembre 2010 - 05:18 .

[Sarah1281]

Well, if Zevran's only real skills are involved in assassination (which he claims) and it's not like the Crows gave him the option to do anything else, then does that mean he's suddenly not allowed to worship the Maker? Regularly praying for forgiveness for basically making a living is probably the best he can really do aside from dying so he doesn't have to make a living anymore which I think is asking for too much. I think self-righteousness is in quotes because Alistair's confusion about Zevran being religious while regularly killing people for money makes it sound to Zevran like Alistair believes that his sense of morals are greater and people generally do not like it when others do that. Alistair's perspectie, of course, isn't that he's trying to judge Zevran, he's just encountering the cognitive dissonance Zevran must be employing to rationalize his job and his faith in the Maker.

[Ryzaki]

Edited so I don't start a religion debate. Do not want that.


My whole point was he was as defensive as his beliefs as some claim Leliana to be.

That said Leliana isn't crazy. She lets you think she's crazy right before she either kisses you or shoves a knife between your ribs.

Ah Leliana. <3

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 novembre 2010 - 06:36 .

[Sarah1281]

You know, generally people don't feel the need to make sure their faith conforms with human standards of logic and telling someone that their faith makes no sense even if there is a seeming contradiction like Zevran killing people for a living and yet being religious is going to offend them and rightlly so. I don't find anything illogical about gay Christians, as it happens. You can be of a faith and yet not accept EVERY tenant of that organized religion.

[Ryzaki]

I'm not going into this because it's going to lead into a religious debate. I have my beliefs and others have theirs and never the twain shall meet. And you just said it's not logical proving my point. Humans aren't logical true but that doesn't give an illogical action any more logic. Zevran can choose to stop killing people at any time. He choose not to instead asking for forgiveness and continuing on.

Suffice to say Leliana isnt the only hypocrite in my mind in regards to religion.

Also...Sarah we're on the same side you know. I never said it wasn't going to offend them but rather Leliana wasn't the only one to get offended

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 novembre 2010 - 07:34 .