498 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

Now then lets end this debate and talk about something else.

...We DID end it. Like, nine hours ago. You brought it back, said something, then decided we shouldn't talk about it.

[Sarah1281]

The Water God wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Now then lets end this debate and talk about something else.

...We DID end it. Like, nine hours ago. You brought it back, said something, then decided we shouldn't talk about it.

Ummm no I replied to your post, put in what I thought about it, and then said we don't need to dicuss it further..........>.<

So basically, you took a discussion that ended half a day ago, added something to it, and then decided maybe we should continue to be done discussing it? 

[ejoslin]

edit: Why oh why do I bite?  Anyway!

SOoooo! Can we talk about Leliana and religion some more?

As far as the Zevran/Alistair banter, even though Zevran brought it up, it was Alistair that made assumptions about Zevran.

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 novembre 2010 - 06:47 .

[ok go]

if the maker wills someone to die, its ok



thats leliana's view on her faith

[Sarah1281]

I think that (if they're not simply trolling) they were referring to this:

Alistair: So what do you think will happen to all those people we left behind in Lothering?

Leliana: Some of them will find their way to Denerim. Many will die. As the Maker wills.

Alistair: Don't you wish you could have stayed there? To help more people, I mean?

Leliana: If the Blight isn't stopped, everyone will die. This is the greater good we're serving, both of us, right here.

Alistair: So it's all right to let some people die for the greater good? I... I'm not so sure about that. I felt bad leaving all those people there, all panicked and helpless.

Leliana: You're doing what you must, Alistair. There will be worse to come yet... you will need to steel yourself, you know this.

Alistair: I've never been very good at that. The steeling myself part. I find it better sometimes to just be a little weak. I'm all right with that, really.

Leliana: I don't believe you. And either way, it's not as if any of us has a choice.

Of course, Leliana isn't so much saying she doesn't care if they died because 'the Maker willed it', she's trying to make Alistair feel better about the fact that they had no choice but to leave Lothering behind in order to end the Blight and save everybody else.

[EccentricSage]

Ryzaki wrote...

I'm not going into this because it's going to lead into a religious debate. I have my beliefs and others have theirs and never the twain shall meet. And you just said it's not logical proving my point. Humans aren't logical true but that doesn't give an illogical action any more logic. Zevran can choose to stop killing people at any time. He choose not to instead asking for forgiveness and continuing on.

Suffice to say Leliana isnt the only hypocrite in my mind in regards to religion.

Also...Sarah we're on the same side you know. I never said it wasn't going to offend them but rather Leliana wasn't the only one to get offended

As a Crow Zevran could not choose to stop killing.  He did not have a choice in being a killer.  One could argue that if the maker had a problem with it, the Maker should do something about it, since Zevran's circumstances were nearly the worst one could imagine. 

And I do think Alistair is self rightious at times towards others in the party.  He never considers where others are coming from, just judges based uppon how he was raised, and what suits him at the moment.  So while Alistair may not mean to be that way, I was chearing Zevran on for putting him in his place.  Alistair needs to grow up a bit.

I see where you are coming from by comparing that conversation with Lelliana's, though.  I would need more time than I have to explain my issue with Lel, and I really need to go back over her dialogue.  I guess it's largely that she was a Bard by choice, who chose to kill and seduce, yet she pretends to be so sweet and pristine.   I have to go to work now, though.  But as I said, my issues with Lelliana do not have to be yours.

[Sarah1281]

Leliana does pretend to be innocent, yes, but there's really no reason to assume she doesn't naturally have a sweet personality. That would certainly be very useful for a bard to have, after all, even as she engages in some very non-sweet activities.

[Ryzaki]

EccentricSage wrote...

As a Crow Zevran could not choose to stop killing.  He did not have a choice in being a killer.  One could argue that if the maker had a problem with it, the Maker should do something about it, since Zevran's circumstances were nearly the worst one could imagine. 

And I do think Alistair is self rightious at times towards others in the party.  He never considers where others are coming from, just judges based uppon how he was raised, and what suits him at the moment.  So while Alistair may not mean to be that way, I was chearing Zevran on for putting him in his place.  Alistair needs to grow up a bit.

I see where you are coming from by comparing that conversation with Lelliana's, though.  I would need more time than I have to explain my issue with Lel, and I really need to go back over her dialogue.  I guess it's largely that she was a Bard by choice, who chose to kill and seduce, yet she pretends to be so sweet and pristine.   I have to go to work now, though.  But as I said, my issues with Lelliana do not have to be yours.

I have no issues with your problems with Leliana. Just the trying to assign logic to the religion one.

And there are plenty of matrys in religion Andraste herself is one.

I never found Alistair to be self-righteous personally. But different strokes for different folks and what not. I always found Zev to be overly touchy for someone who acts so laid back.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 03:08 .

[EccentricSage]

Ryzaki wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

As a Crow Zevran could not choose to stop killing.  He did not have a choice in being a killer.  One could argue that if the maker had a problem with it, the Maker should do something about it, since Zevran's circumstances were nearly the worst one could imagine. 

And I do think Alistair is self rightious at times towards others in the party.  He never considers where others are coming from, just judges based uppon how he was raised, and what suits him at the moment.  So while Alistair may not mean to be that way, I was chearing Zevran on for putting him in his place.  Alistair needs to grow up a bit.

I see where you are coming from by comparing that conversation with Lelliana's, though.  I would need more time than I have to explain my issue with Lel, and I really need to go back over her dialogue.  I guess it's largely that she was a Bard by choice, who chose to kill and seduce, yet she pretends to be so sweet and pristine.   I have to go to work now, though.  But as I said, my issues with Lelliana do not have to be yours.

I have no issues with your problems with Leliana. Just the trying to assign logic to the religion one.

And there are plenty of matrys in religion Andraste herself is one.

I never found Alistair to be self-righteous personally. But different strokes for different folks and what not. I always found Zev to be overly touchy for someone who acts so laid back.

You made good points reguarding Lel.

See, just because there are martyrs in a religion does not, in my opinion, mean that all followers should feal called uppon to become one.  And really, I though Andraste died because she was betrayed, not because she chose to. 

Well, for me, there were moments like when Alistair first met Morrigan, and she helped us, but he was being an ass about the fact that she's an apostate.  He was ungrateful when Flemeth rescued us, too.  There's just lots of stuff like that.  He himself sugests that you may have to kill Conor, if you kill Conor, he gets mad at you and says you should have sacraficed Isold.  If you sacrafice Isold, he still gets mad at you because you sacraficed Isold.  In his gossip dialogue he professes a positive view of Wynne and Lelliana, and a negative view of Zevran and Oghren, which irritated me...  I mean, really... Oghren smells bad... if party banter means anything, then Alistair smells bad too.  XD  But more seriously, I find it obnoxiously stupid and self rightious that he still had not come to trust or value Zevran, just because he is an assassin, yet he has nooooo suspicions about Lelliana and codles her despite the fact that she was a bard. 

I don't think he realizes that he's a tad self rightious and a poor judge of character, but that does not change the fact that he acts in such a way.  There are simply many occassions where, despite my afection for Alistair, I want to slap him around a little and tell him to wake the f*** up.  If he's going to judge people, he should at least try to know them and apply SOME logic to his judgement of them, instead of living his life according to every knee-jerk reaction he has, based uppon a religious upbringing he professes not to even beleave in.  (the last bit being why I love listening the Zevran put him in his place.  XD)

I get where you are coming from on most things, except for Zev.  In my experience he ussually is really layed back about stuff.  What is he touchy about, aside from massacring people?

[EccentricSage]

The Water God wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...
.
I see where you are coming from by comparing that conversation with Lelliana's, though.  I would need more time than I have to explain my issue with Lel, and I really need to go back over her dialogue.  I guess it's largely that she was a Bard by choice, who chose to kill and seduce, yet she pretends to be so sweet and pristine.   I have to go to work now, though.  But as I said, my issues with Lelliana do not have to be yours.

I think back to LS, and she seemed like she mostly wanted to be just like her sweet Margie. Probably Marjolaine most likely met Leliana at a young age (a teen most likely) and influenced Leliana to be just like herself.

Even if Leliana is normally sweet and kind to friends and loved ones. Young people like Leliana tend to be easily influenced by what their peers are doing. And that usually causes people to do things they wouldn't normally be comfortable with.

I think Marjolaine was just a bad influence for Leliana. Of course it's not like the chantry was any better, it made her a little too good....

To put that in perspective, there are plenty of women in real life who acted sweet and pristine, but then fell in love with sick bastards.  And instead of having a spine and saying 'this is insane, what you are doing is wrong', they helped their boyfriend or husband commit rape, torture, or murder... sometimes against their own children.  Then when they get caught, they play dumb and pretend like it was all their terrible lover's fault for being a bad influence.  Guess what?  I don't think that's any excuse.  People who make the concious choice to do such things need to be held acountable, with the only exception being outstanding circumstances where people kill to survive.  Girls like Lelliana should be treated exactly like what they are, not excused because they manage a convincing simper or have an endearing giggle.

[EccentricSage]

The Water God wrote...

ok go wrote...

if the maker wills someone to die, its ok

thats leliana's view on her faith

Right..... and you realize throughout most of the game she tries to make the warden try to spare pretty much everybody.

And since when did she make a comment like that? I think I might have missed it somewhere.

See, that's something that doesn't add up for me.  She killed and seduced, and possibly tortured, for something as frivilous as a glamourous lifestyle and the affections of another.  So where the hell does she get off playing little miss perfect every time someone who threatens the Warden's agenda has to die?  She seems such a hypocrite to me.  Frankly I think it's part of her act.  She thinks that now that she has decided to be noble and be heroic, she has to play the annoying Marry Sue who weeps for every lost soul and acts unduely surprised when people meet violent ends during a time of dyre chrisis.  Oh, dear Lelliana, do not expect us to believe for a moment that you are so sheltered and naive.  Well... with the exception of Wynne and Alistair anyhow... they'll blindly believe her.  e_e

[Ryzaki]

EccentricSage wrote...


You made good points reguarding Lel.

See, just because there are martyrs in a religion does not, in my opinion, mean that all followers should feal called uppon to become one.  And really, I though Andraste died because she was betrayed, not because she chose to.

Personally I always saw it as a god expecting their followers to obey their laws above all else. Regardless of what "mere" consequences they would have to deal with in the first life. They would be rewarded for their faith and loyalty in the other and their attackers would pay.

Couldn't Andraste's betrayal been stopped by her renouncing her faith? 

Well, for me, there were moments like when Alistair first met Morrigan, and she helped us, but he was being an ass about the fact that she's an apostate.  He was ungrateful when Flemeth rescued us, too.  There's just lots of stuff like that.  He himself sugests that you may have to kill Conor, if you kill Conor, he gets mad at you and says you should have sacraficed Isold.  If you sacrafice Isold, he still gets mad at you because you sacraficed Isold.  In his gossip dialogue he professes a positive view of Wynne and Lelliana, and a negative view of Zevran and Oghren, which irritated me...  I mean, really... Oghren smells bad... if party banter means anything, then Alistair smells bad too.  XD  But more seriously, I find it obnoxiously stupid and self rightious that he still had not come to trust or value Zevran, just because he is an assassin, yet he has nooooo suspicions about Lelliana and codles her despite the fact that she was a bard. 

Oh I see...at lot of those things I understood (particulary the jerking around of people's chains Morrigan does. I find it neither amusing nor cute. Just very very annoying. <_<) Though good god I do hate that convo at camp. (Though with a high cunning you can call him out on it which is so very rewarding).

...And the other characters don't express negative views of each other? 

Him disliking Zevran is very logical and understandable simply put Leliana hadn't tried to kill him. In fact she'd been helpful the whole time. Meanwhile the assassin (who was fool enough to allude to the fact that he thought he still had a chance at killing you when he was tied up in at his mercy ) is hanging about whom Alistair knows nothing about other than the attempted assassination.

No offense but it's like people forget Zevran tried to kill the player and Alistair.

I don't think he realizes that he's a tad self rightious and a poor judge of character, but that does not change the fact that he acts in such a way.  There are simply many occassions where, despite my afection for Alistair, I want to slap him around a little and tell him to wake the f*** up.  If he's going to judge people, he should at least try to know them and apply SOME logic to his judgement of them, instead of living his life according to every knee-jerk reaction he has, based uppon a religious upbringing he professes not to even beleave in.  (the last bit being why I love listening the Zevran put him in his place.  XD)

I get where you are coming from on most things, except for Zev.  In my experience he ussually is really layed back about stuff.  What is he touchy about, aside from massacring people?

Oh that's true. I feel that way about most of the characters. I never saw that convo as Zev "putting him in his place" though. Different strokes I suppose. I just saw it as a very snippet "Shut up.". And wished my player had the opportunity to ask about Zevran's faith. 

I personally always found him to be a bit touchy when people pointed out his flaws. Normal reaction but the relaxed way he usually acts kind of makes me go: "Eh?" it's not logical I'm not even going to pretend it is but he just creeps me out and annoys me. He's amusing enough to have around when I can stand him but I usually can't.

And I can not spare him without metagaming. I just can't.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 08:48 .

[EccentricSage]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

[quote]EccentricSage wrote...


You made good points reguarding Lel.

See, just because there are martyrs in a religion does not, in my opinion, mean that all followers should feal called uppon to become one.  And really, I though Andraste died because she was betrayed, not because she chose to. [/quote]

Personally I always saw it as a god expecting their followers to obey their laws above all else. Regardless of what "mere" consequences they would have to deal with in the first life. They would be rewarded for their faith and loyalty in the other and their attackers would pay.

Couldn't Andraste's betrayal been stopped by her renouncing her faith? [/quote]

That is only one possible perspective, though, just as with real religions.  Is there anything in-game about being rewarded for self sacrafice in the next life and your pursecutors punished?  I only remember there being the bit about the faithful going to the Maker's side after death.  I don't remember stipulations.  One could easily compare it to Christianity, and we know there are many widely varied practices and perspectives based around just that one religion.  I doubt the Antivan Chantry even teaches or behaves the same as the Ferelden and Orlesian Chantry, since the Chantry has less power there, and everyone fears the rath of the House of Crows.  The chantry there may even cater a bit to the social norms of Antiva, much as the Catholics have been known to do throughout history.  It's often as much about money and power as it is about preaching.

Zevran is a strange one, I must say.  I think he was afraid to give up, afraid to die, untill his understanding of what he is became unbearable.  Then he throws himself at the Wardens in hopes of a glorious death, only to once again discover he wants a new chance at life.  He's very conflicted, and full of traumatic experiences and supressed emotions.  I'd imagine that while he wanted to experience what life does have to offer, he also desperately wanted some hope for more meaning, or that he will at least find peace in death at the Maker's side.  Personaly I'd ask what kind of god would want for his creations to suffer so, but that is me.  I don't know how Zevran feels about that.  I actually do wish we had the option of asking him.

Someone in the old Zevran thread did point out something interesting, btw.  If you ask for the reveared mother's blessing in Redcliff, Zevran does a special jesture of prayer.  I can't remember who said this, but she said in her country, that's an old Catholic jesture of prayer.  I'm having a hard time remembering her exact wording, but I think she said it is for a prayer in thanks for what you have, and in wanting for what you don't... or something like that...  Ah... I'm probably messing it up...  I wonder if any of the other Zev fans remember?

[quote]
[quote]Well, for me, there were moments like when Alistair first met Morrigan, and she helped us, but he was being an ass about the fact that she's an apostate.  He was ungrateful when Flemeth rescued us, too.  There's just lots of stuff like that.  He himself sugests that you may have to kill Conor, if you kill Conor, he gets mad at you and says you should have sacraficed Isold.  If you sacrafice Isold, he still gets mad at you because you sacraficed Isold.  In his gossip dialogue he professes a positive view of Wynne and Lelliana, and a negative view of Zevran and Oghren, which irritated me...  I mean, really... Oghren smells bad... if party banter means anything, then Alistair smells bad too.  XD  But more seriously, I find it obnoxiously stupid and self rightious that he still had not come to trust or value Zevran, just because he is an assassin, yet he has nooooo suspicions about Lelliana and codles her despite the fact that she was a bard.  [/quote]

Oh I see...at lot of those things I understood (particulary the jerking around of people's chains Morrigan does. I find it neither amusing nor cute. Just very very annoying. <_<) Though good god I do hate that convo at camp. (Though with a high cunning you can call him out on it which is so very rewarding).

...And the other characters don't express negative views of each other? 

Him disliking Zevran is very logical and understandable simply put Leliana hadn't tried to kill him. In fact she'd been helpful the whole time. Meanwhile the assassin (who was fool enough to allude to the fact that he thought he still had a chance at killing you when he was tied up in at his mercy ) is hanging about whom Alistair knows nothing about other than the attempted assassination.

No offense but it's like people forget Zevran tried to kill the player and Alistair. [/quote]

I won't defend Morrigan here.  I like her as a character, but do argue with her often in the game, though she usually ends up my friend and having an understanding with my characters somehow.  XD  But there is plenty to get anoyed at her about.

My issue is not so much his bickering in Lothering, though he does say some pretty stupid things in counter to Morrigan's ignorant things.  (I wanted to tell them both to shut the hell up, SO BAD)  It's the fact Alistair judged her first, before she'd done anything to deserve it, when she first showed up and ended up helping us imensely.  I thought, after she gave us the documents we were looking for, that Alistair would chill.  So what if she's an apostate?  She had done us a great great service.  Then we got back to Dunkan, and I bring up that we met a mage in the wilds, thinking we should let Dunkan know that there's a loose canon out there who could be on our side... and Alistair blurts out all unhelpfully OMGZ Dunkan!  APOSTATES!!! in a tone that implied this is a terrible revalation.  That bothers me every damn time.

Then you get rescued by Flemeth, and while it's wise not to trust them, as we do not know them and their intentions, fact of the matter is, they want to stop the blight, too.  Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall him showing any gratitude.  Really, while there are many objectionable things that Morrigan says, I can't really fault her for having it in for Alistair, as he was being a total douchebag to her, first.  My Mages and my Dalish both in particular felt offended and related to Morrigan on this issue.  My other wardens just felt embarased and anoyed that he's pissing off people who might be of help to us. 

I've never said that others never express negative views of eachother, mind you.  It just isn't what we're discussing.

I understand Alistair's dislike of Zevran early on, but he behaves stupidly about it.  Pissing contests were not getting anyone anywhere.  Zevran was mostly pretty light hearted about it, though, with the exception of when Alistair questioned his faith.  Zevran tended to win more points with me in their banters because he's much smarter than Alistair, and he doesn't get so personal.  I will say, I was really happy about the mod that restores the bugged banters, as they are rather friendly banters with the exception of jealous Zevran banter.  I was happy to see that in the later banters, Alistair does start to except Zevran.  Al has won back some points with me, now that I think about it.  When I'm playing a fairly new character it's easy to get caught up in what I'm experiencing of the companions through that character at the moment.  My mage's romance with Alistair is bringing up a tad more Alistair hate than I'd normally have.  XD

As for Zevran trying to kill the wardens... My wardens are usually very cautious with him at first, though it strikes them as no reason to backbite (with the exception of rough tent time) or act petty.  They're more interested in figuring him out well enough to know where they stand with him.  Sometimes they have a lot of sympathy for him, because they do believe what he said about being a slave and all that, and do find a kind side in him.  Others see him as useful, and being close enough to predict his actions and respectful enough to keep him on good terms to be paramount in leading a tight enough group to defeat a dire foe such as the Archdemon.  I don't really find it that hard to understand where Zevran is coming from, personaly.

[quote]
[quote]I don't think he realizes that he's a tad self rightious and a poor judge of character, but that does not change the fact that he acts in such a way.  There are simply many occassions where, despite my afection for Alistair, I want to slap him around a little and tell him to wake the f*** up.  If he's going to judge people, he should at least try to know them and apply SOME logic to his judgement of them, instead of living his life according to every knee-jerk reaction he has, based uppon a religious upbringing he professes not to even beleave in.  (the last bit being why I love listening the Zevran put him in his place.  XD)

I get where you are coming from on most things, except for Zev.  In my experience he ussually is really layed back about stuff.  What is he touchy about, aside from massacring people?

[/quote]

Oh that's true. I feel that way about most of the characters. I never saw that convo as Zev "putting him in his place" though. Different strokes I suppose. I just saw it as a very snippet "Shut up.". And wished my player had the opportunity to ask about Zevran's faith. 

I personally always found him to be a bit touchy when people pointed out his flaws. Normal reaction but the relaxed way he usually acts kind of makes me go: "Eh?" it's not logical I'm not even going to pretend it is but he just creeps me out and annoys me. He's amusing enough to have around when I can stand him but I usually can't.

And I can not spare him without metagaming. I just can't.

[/quote] [/quote]

See, I take it as more than a shut up, because that banter brings up a very valid point about Alistair, and then kind of throws it in his face.  It carries more weight than a simple missunderstanding and Zevran wanting to end the conversation.  I second that, though... I wanted to talk to him about it, too.

I really just don't understand WHERE you are seeing Zevran being a bit too touchy, though.  Not for lack of trying mind you, I'm not discounting your point.  Could you give me some paraphrased examples, or just indicate which dialogues or banters you're talking about?  Are you talking about his disaproval if you choose the more extreme reactions to him in the early dialogues?  Or is it his reaction in a party banter?  I thought, with the exception of bringing up love after sex, that he usually is pretty mild in his judgement of others and light hearted in his reactions.  And of course, there's a good reason why he freeks out over bringing up love, but one has to follow through with the romance to see how that plays out. 

I think I can understand why he'd creep you out, though.  I was already fascinated with the character before I even got the game, but he creeped me out at first, too, once I finaly got him... Adored him, but sometimes his coldness reguarding death and sex is really unsettling, though I found as I explored his dialogue that he's not as cold as he tries to seem.  But the sex with marks who KNOW he's an assassin and that they are going to die... I can see how that's chilling and hard for most people to get past.  For me, it's part of what's fascinating about him, though... his psychology... and that anyone as deeply messed up as he is can still experience love and show compassion.  But I understand that some can't get past that.  Though, on the other hand, Lelliana probably has done much of the same... she just doesn't go into detail for you in dialogue about her missions.  She's so purposefully vague and distant about her life as a Bard.  Part of why I respect Zev more... He doesn't hide what he's done.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 17 novembre 2010 - 12:53 .

[Sarah1281]

EccentricSage wrote...

The Water God wrote...

ok go wrote...

if the maker wills someone to die, its ok

thats leliana's view on her faith

Right..... and you realize throughout most of the game she tries to make the warden try to spare pretty much everybody.

And since when did she make a comment like that? I think I might have missed it somewhere.

See, that's something that doesn't add up for me.  She killed and seduced, and possibly tortured, for something as frivilous as a glamourous lifestyle and the affections of another.  So where the hell does she get off playing little miss perfect every time someone who threatens the Warden's agenda has to die?  She seems such a hypocrite to me.  Frankly I think it's part of her act.  She thinks that now that she has decided to be noble and be heroic, she has to play the annoying Marry Sue who weeps for every lost soul and acts unduely surprised when people meet violent ends during a time of dyre chrisis.  Oh, dear Lelliana, do not expect us to believe for a moment that you are so sheltered and naive.  Well... with the exception of Wynne and Alistair anyhow... they'll blindly believe her.  e_e

...How is Leliana wanting you to spare people when possible sheltered and naive? She's not surprised but she doesn't like it and doesn't want it to happen necessarily. You can't stab someone randomly in the street, claim it's a dire crisis so that's okay, and expect Leliana to be okay with it. If you're talking about Loghain's men when you first meet her, technically you really don't have to kill them. By the time they get to Denerim to tell Loghain about you, you'll be long gone and it's not like he doesn't already know you're alive anyway. Just because Leliana was a bard in the past does not mean that once she was betrayed and spent time in the Chantry, she hasn't come to realize that her 'frivolous' lifestyle was wrong and now regret it. It is not hypocritical of her, on her path to redemption, to protest against what she sees as unnecessary violence. You might see those killings as necessary but she clearly disagrees which just means that she disagrees, not that she's pretending to be perfect.

I thought, after she gave us the documents we were looking for, that Alistair would chill.  So what if she's an apostate?  She had done us a great great service.  Then we got back to Dunkan, and I bring up that we met a mage in the wilds, thinking we should let Dunkan know that there's a loose canon out there who could be on our side... and Alistair blurts out all unhelpfully OMGZ Dunkan!  APOSTATES!!! in a tone that implied this is a terrible revalation.  That bothers me every damn time.

You maen when Alistair wasn't even going to mention it and you're like 'Maybe we should tell Duncan about the apostates' and he's all 'Okay. Hey Duncan, we found some apostates!' He saw them for two minutes or so, Morrigan was very rude and Flemeth very unsettling. He wouldn't have mentioned it, just the same, until you told him to. Once you brought it up, someone had to tell Duncan or he would have asked who Morrigan was. Do you really think it's realistic for an almost templar lilke him to coach it in terms of 'so this unregistered mage and her mother found the treaties for us'? 

As for Zevran trying to kill the wardens... My wardens are usually very cautious with him at first, though it strikes them as no reason to backbite (with the exception of rough tent time) or act petty.  They're more interested in figuring him out well enough to know where they stand with him.  Sometimes they have a lot of sympathy for him, because they do believe what he said about being a slave and all that, and do find a kind side in him.  Others see him as useful, and being close enough to predict his actions and respectful enough to keep him on good terms to be paramount in leading a tight enough group to defeat a dire foe such as the Archdemon.  I don't really find it that hard to understand where Zevran is coming from, personaly.

Okay, so your Warden can be all uber!sympathetic to him and immediately try to win him over so he feels welcome on the team and doesn't try to kill you again...that's really great for them. Why is Alistair being mistrustful and putting his foot in his mouth sometimes such a problem? He tried to kill you. Regardless of his reasons, that's a pretty good reason to be cautious around someone or to even outright dislike them. All things considered, Alistair could be a lot less civil than he is. You could also say that, as the leader of the group, the Warden is the one who has the need to stay on Zevran's good side or whatever to maximize the chances of him continuing to work for you. Is it really plausible that anything a non-leader member of the team such as Alistair has to say would chase a party member away? Do you think Wynne is in danger of leaving because Zevran won't stop talking about her breasts? Do you think Zevran is in danger of doing so because Wynne keeps trying to make him admit that killing is wrong? Do you think Alistair is in danger of that because Morrigan keeps calling him stupid? Is Leliana in danger of this when both she and Morrigan are in a romance with you and Morrigan gets really catty? Are any of the party members that you dump in danger of this? You're all working together to stop the Blight and they're not going to leave unless they REALLY hate you or you cross some sort of line for them. They're not made of glass and 'OMG, Alistair is being a little rude!' is not going to ever be their reason. For all you claim NOT to hate Alistair, you really seem to be way too hard on him.

She's so purposefully vague and distant about her life as a Bard.  Part of why I respect Zev more... He doesn't hide what he's done.

Which would be a lot more impressive if it wasn't for the fact that Zevran trying to kill you makes it pretty much impossible for him to deny/downplay the fact that he's an assassin to you.

[Wulfram]

Sarah1281 wrote...
. If you're talking about Loghain's men when you first meet her, technically you really don't have to kill them. By the time they get to Denerim to tell Loghain about you, you'll be long gone and it's not like he doesn't already know you're alive anyway.

I don't think Loghain does know you are alive.  At least, Howe talks like grey wardens surviving Ostagar is news in the Zevran hiring cutscene.

[maxernst]

Wulfram wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
. If you're talking about Loghain's men when you first meet her, technically you really don't have to kill them. By the time they get to Denerim to tell Loghain about you, you'll be long gone and it's not like he doesn't already know you're alive anyway.

I don't think Loghain does know you are alive.  At least, Howe talks like grey wardens surviving Ostagar is news in the Zevran hiring cutscene.

But it doesn't change much of anything because Loghain already knows by the time you get to Denerim--hence the posters.  If you really think you have to kill Loghain's men in Lothering to stop Loghain from finding out that you're alive, you better make sure you kill everybody in Lothering who knows you're a Warden. 

[Ryzaki]

[quote]EccentricSage wrote...

That is only one possible perspective, though, just as with real religions.  Is there anything in-game about being rewarded for self sacrafice in the next life and your pursecutors punished?  I only remember there being the bit about the faithful going to the Maker's side after death.  I don't remember stipulations.  One could easily compare it to Christianity, and we know there are many widely varied practices and perspectives based around just that one religion.  I doubt the Antivan Chantry even teaches or behaves the same as the Ferelden and Orlesian Chantry, since the Chantry has less power there, and everyone fears the rath of the House of Crows.  The chantry there may even cater a bit to the social norms of Antiva, much as the Catholics have been known to do throughout history.  It's often as much about money and power as it is about preaching.[/quote]

I just added the last bit. But Gods as a whole usually don't give a sh** about human laws. They want you to do as their words bid and that's all. Even if you have to die for it.

[quote]Zevran is a strange one, I must say.  I think he was afraid to give up, afraid to die, untill his understanding of what he is became unbearable.  Then he throws himself at the Wardens in hopes of a glorious death, only to once again discover he wants a new chance at life.  He's very conflicted, and full of traumatic experiences and supressed emotions.  I'd imagine that while he wanted to experience what life does have to offer, he also desperately wanted some hope for more meaning, or that he will at least find peace in death at the Maker's side.  Personaly I'd ask what kind of god would want for his creations to suffer so, but that is me.  I don't know how Zevran feels about that.  I actually do wish we had the option of asking him.[/quote]

Eh. I don't see where you see that. Frankly when he told me his attention was to die in combat I wanted an option to say "Are you f*cking kidding me? " and call him out on the bs. He brought a goddamn bloodmage. Wanted to die my bloody ass.

Suffering is supposed to show how much you are devoted to your god. That you would sufferif that's what following thir will lead to.

[quote]Someone in the old Zevran thread did point out something interesting, btw.  If you ask for the reveared mother's blessing in Redcliff, Zevran does a special jesture of prayer.  I can't remember who said this, but she said in her country, that's an old Catholic jesture of prayer.  I'm having a hard time remembering her exact wording, but I think she said it is for a prayer in thanks for what you have, and in wanting for what you don't... or something like that...  Ah... I'm probably messing it up...  I wonder if any of the other Zev fans remember?
[/quote]

I find that interesting but still meh. I just dislike the guy. The funny thing is I dislike Morrigan just as much but can pick out so "dawww" moments with her. I can't do the same with Zevran without feeling contrived.

[quote]

I won't defend Morrigan here.  I like her as a character, but do argue with her often in the game, though she usually ends up my friend and having an understanding with my characters somehow.  XD  But there is plenty to get anoyed at her about.

My issue is not so much his bickering in Lothering, though he does say some pretty stupid things in counter to Morrigan's ignorant things.  (I wanted to tell them both to shut the hell up, SO BAD)  It's the fact Alistair judged her first, before she'd done anything to deserve it, when she first showed up and ended up helping us imensely.  I thought, after she gave us the documents we were looking for, that Alistair would chill.  So what if she's an apostate?  She had done us a great great service.  Then we got back to Dunkan, and I bring up that we met a mage in the wilds, thinking we should let Dunkan know that there's a loose canon out there who could be on our side... and Alistair blurts out all unhelpfully OMGZ Dunkan!  APOSTATES!!! in a tone that implied this is a terrible revalation.  That bothers me every damn time.[/quote]

The first thing she shows up is conviently right after we discover the treaties missing. We don't run into her. She as there. The whole thing is a setup. Alistair in my mind was right to be on his guard. (Heck I wanted to ask her "you were watching us? Why? What are you looking for? What do you want? " And after that she's just as rude to him as he is to her.

Not only that but you have to bring up the apostates for Alistair to even chime in. Otherwise he's just eager to get on with the joining.-

[quote]Then you get rescued by Flemeth, and while it's wise not to trust them, as we do not know them and their intentions, fact of the matter is, they want to stop the blight, too.  Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall him showing any gratitude.  Really, while there are many objectionable things that Morrigan says, I can't really fault her for having it in for Alistair, as he was being a total douchebag to her, first.  My Mages and my Dalish both in particular felt offended and related to Morrigan on this issue.  My other wardens just felt embarased and anoyed that he's pissing off people who might be of help to us.p[/quote]

Honestly the two of them have been suspicious as all hell. (And ironically he's not all that rude to Flemeth at all and Morrigan's just as rude to him in the beginning at first). Morrigan was as much a douche as he was so they were both acting like preschoolers.

My Wardens would've followed her with a sword drawn. Too damn convienent her appearence is.

[quote]
I've never said that others never express negative views of eachother, mind you.  It just isn't what we're discussing.[/quote]

So why bring up Alistair's "self-righteousness" and justifible distrust of the man who tried to kill him?

[quote]I understand Alistair's dislike of Zevran early on, but he behaves stupidly about it.  Pissing contests were not getting anyone anywhere.  Zevran was mostly pretty light hearted about it, though, with the exception of when Alistair questioned his faith.  Zevran tended to win more points with me in their banters because he's much smarter than Alistair, and he doesn't get so personal.  I will say, I was really happy about the mod that restores the bugged banters, as they are rather friendly banters with the exception of jealous Zevran banter.  I was happy to see that in the later banters, Alistair does start to except Zevran.  Al has won back some points with me, now that I think about it.  When I'm playing a fairly new character it's easy to get caught up in what I'm experiencing of the companions through that character at the moment.  My mage's romance with Alistair is bringing up a tad more Alistair hate than I'd normally have.  XD [/quote]

Eh. I didn't see a pissing contest just some jabbing. I'm sure Zevran is more world wise than Alistair (which is an kind of intelligence) but smarter all around? No. Alistair no matter how hard he pretends is not an idiot .

[quote]As for Zevran trying to kill the wardens... My wardens are usually very cautious with him at first, though it strikes them as no reason to backbite (with the exception of rough tent time) or act petty.  They're more interested in figuring him out well enough to know where they stand with him.  Sometimes they have a lot of sympathy for him, because they do believe what he said about being a slave and all that, and do find a kind side in him.  Others see him as useful, and being close enough to predict his actions and respectful enough to keep him on good terms to be paramount in leading a tight enough group to defeat a dire foe such as the Archdemon.  I don't really find it that hard to understand where Zevran is coming from, personaly.[/quote]

I do. Random guy tries to kil me and then offers a deal? Lol..no. I just kill him. I'd be more sympathetic if he didn't sound so happy about it all. Especially the killing convo. Ick. Half my Wardens that spare him send him on his way after that convo.

[quote]
I don't think he realizes that he's a tad self rightious and a poor judge of character, but that does not change the fact that he acts in such a way.  There are simply many occassions where, despite my afection for Alistair, I want to slap him around a little and tell him to wake the f*** up.  If he's going to judge people, he should at least try to know them and apply SOME logic to his judgement of them, instead of living his life according to every knee-jerk reaction he has, based uppon a religious upbringing he professes not to even beleave in.  (the last bit being why I love listening the Zevran put him in his place.  XD)[/quote]

I don't see his self-righteousness. Now poor judge of character is something I can agree with. I have occassions like that as well. Still most people adly make snap judgements. And as you said before afer he gets to know the person he amends his judgement. (I love his gossip convo about Sten). It shows that while he is biast he tries to understand what's going on arond him.

[quote]I get where you are coming from on most things, except for Zev.  In my experience he ussually is really layed back about stuff.  What is he touchy about, aside from massacring people?

[/quote]

Meh. Just my HN pointing out their differences, not praising his assasin abilities (You got robbed by urchins? Seriously?), among other things. Like I said before it's not one specifi thing it's the whole package. Too me it's a very ugly and hideous package but you can't really pick out what specifically about it that repulses you so it just does.


 [quote]

See, I take it as more than a shut up, because that banter brings up a very valid point about Alistair, and then kind of throws it in his face.  It carries more weight than a simple missunderstanding and Zevran wanting to end the conversation.  I second that, though... I wanted to talk to him about it, too.[/quote]

Personal interpretation then. I don't see it as throwing anything in Alistair's face. His last line is kind of when someone's logic is so twisted you really can't say anything.

[quote]I really just don't understand WHERE you are seeing Zevran being a bit too touchy, though.  Not for lack of trying mind you, I'm not discounting your point.  Could you give me some paraphrased examples, or just indicate which dialogues or banters you're talking about?  Are you talking about his disaproval if you choose the more extreme reactions to him in the early dialogues?  Or is it his reaction in a party banter?  I thought, with the exception of bringing up love after sex, that he usually is pretty mild in his judgement of others and light hearted in his reactions.  And of course, there's a good reason why he freeks out over bringing up love, but one has to follow through with the romance to see how that plays out.[/quote]

It's a whole rather than a few snippets. I'm not going to list them because it'll just lead to a spiraling argument that'll go nowhere.

His so called "suicidal" tendances isa large part of that.

[quote]I think I can understand why he'd creep you out, though.  I was already fascinated with the character before I even got the game, but he creeped me out at first, too, once I finaly got him... Adored him, but sometimes his coldness reguarding death and sex is really unsettling, though I found as I explored his dialogue that he's not as cold as he tries to seem.  But the sex with marks who KNOW he's an assassin and that they are going to die... I can see how that's chilling and hard for most people to get past.  For me, it's part of what's fascinating about him, though... his psychology... and that anyone as deeply messed up as he is can still experience love and show compassion.  But I understand that some can't get past that.  Though, on the other hand, Lelliana probably has done much of the same... she just doesn't go into detail for you in dialogue about her missions.  She's so purposefully vague and distant about her life as a Bard.  Part of why I respect Zev more... He doesn't hide what he's done.

[/quote]

Ick. Personally I don't feel it that way. I'd have a lot more respect for the character had he simply killed them outright or had used sex to get close enough to kill them. He didn't so...urgh. I don't find that fascinating I find him sick and disgusting.

I like Leliana's vagueness and distance. It gives the illusion at least that she's trying to move past that. While Zevran seems like he find it enjoyable enough and can sell you out to go back to the life at any moment

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 05:52 .

[ejoslin]

He didn't bring a bloodmage @@ A mage, yes, not a bloodmage (I see no bloodmage spells cast from her). And again, you may not like a particular aspect of Zevran's story, and you think it was written badly, but you can't discount something that is actually written into his story. That he was hoping to die when going after the Gray Warden is a part of his story. Another part of his story is that the first opportunity he has to break free of the crows, he takes.



You may think this is poorly written or not very believable, but it is his story. it's ok to not like the character -- many people do not (many people do as well). But don't just discount what his story IS because you don't like him and think it's not believable. He's a fictional character, so what his author says is, is.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

He didn't bring a bloodmage @@ A mage, yes, not a bloodmage (I see no bloodmage spells cast from her). And again, you may not like a particular aspect of Zevran's story, and you think it was written badly, but you can't discount something that is actually written into his story. That he was hoping to die when going after the Gray Warden is a part of his story. Another part of his story is that the first opportunity he has to break free of the crows, he takes.

You may think this is poorly written or not very believable, but it is his story. it's ok to not like the character -- many people do not (many people do as well). But don't just discount what his story IS because you don't like him and think it's not believable. He's a fictional character, so what his author says is, is.

She is a bloodmage. For the lulz I maxed everyone's level once and the first thing she did was use Blood Wound.

If the author fails to show me the reader that the story is believeable yes I can discount it. A sucidial person doesn't bring along a mage (who are supposed to be ridculously overpowered in DA universe regardless blood mage or no.) Archers, traps and the like. Sort of like Leliana's trying to get away from the Bard life in the toolset. That's not what she shows in th game. Maybe that was also authorial intent but it never came across that way.

So yes I'm allowed to discount the story if I feel it rings false and is contradicted in the game.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 06:28 .