498 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

You...don't see Leliana leaving Orlais, joining a Chantry, and pretending she was never a Bard until you call her on her unusual knowledge of them makes it seem lilke she's trying to get away from being a Bard?

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

You...don't see Leliana leaving Orlais, joining a Chantry, and pretending she was never a Bard until you call her on her unusual knowledge of them makes it seem lilke she's trying to get away from being a Bard?

No I saw that as fleeing from Marjoline's betrayal. She didn't leave the bardic order because she was sick of being a bard but because someone betrayed her. She really had no choice. If she had remained in Orlais she would've been killed.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 06:31 .

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

You...don't see Leliana leaving Orlais, joining a Chantry, and pretending she was never a Bard until you call her on her unusual knowledge of them makes it seem lilke she's trying to get away from being a Bard?

No I saw that as fleeing from Marjoline's betrayal. She didn't leave the bardic order because she was sick of being a bard but because someone betrayed her.

Well, that's canon. The part about her wanting to stop being a bard comes after she was betrayed and spent time in the Chantry. Doesn't she say something about initially just hiding in the Chantry because it was conveniently but she slowly started to come around to their way of thinking? 

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

You...don't see Leliana leaving Orlais, joining a Chantry, and pretending she was never a Bard until you call her on her unusual knowledge of them makes it seem lilke she's trying to get away from being a Bard?

No I saw that as fleeing from Marjoline's betrayal. She didn't leave the bardic order because she was sick of being a bard but because someone betrayed her.

Well, that's canon. The part about her wanting to stop being a bard comes after she was betrayed and spent time in the Chantry. Doesn't she say something about initially just hiding in the Chantry because it was conveniently but she slowly started to come around to their way of thinking? 

Read my edited post. I doubt she could've went back to being a bard if she wanted to.

And I never saw that as her coming along to the Chantry way of thinking (her very beliefs discount that) but rather she got used to peace and not looking over her shouder and decided to just roll with it.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 06:34 .

[maxernst]

ejoslin wrote...

He didn't bring a bloodmage @@ A mage, yes, not a bloodmage (I see no bloodmage spells cast from her). And again, you may not like a particular aspect of Zevran's story, and you think it was written badly, but you can't discount something that is actually written into his story. That he was hoping to die when going after the Gray Warden is a part of his story. Another part of his story is that the first opportunity he has to break free of the crows, he takes.

You may think this is poorly written or not very believable, but it is his story. it's ok to not like the character -- many people do not (many people do as well). But don't just discount what his story IS because you don't like him and think it's not believable. He's a fictional character, so what his author says is, is.

You can, however, think he's lying.  Also, I disagree with the assertion that an author can't be wrong about his story.  Authorial intent and what's actually in the story are not the same.  We don't always succeed in expressing ourselves perfectly.

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

You...don't see Leliana leaving Orlais, joining a Chantry, and pretending she was never a Bard until you call her on her unusual knowledge of them makes it seem lilke she's trying to get away from being a Bard?

No I saw that as fleeing from Marjoline's betrayal. She didn't leave the bardic order because she was sick of being a bard but because someone betrayed her.

Well, that's canon. The part about her wanting to stop being a bard comes after she was betrayed and spent time in the Chantry. Doesn't she say something about initially just hiding in the Chantry because it was conveniently but she slowly started to come around to their way of thinking? 

Read my edited post. I doubt she could've went back to being a bard if she wanted to.

And I never saw that as her coming along to the Chantry way of thinking (her very beliefs discount that) but rather she got used to peace and not looking over her shouder and decided to just roll with it.

Not right away, certainly, but if you leave Marjolaine alive and are not in a romance with Leliana, she'll go back to Orlais - apparently not concerned about potential death - to 'deal with' Marjolaine and I think that if she can pull that off then, had she the desire to, she could be a bard again...although I don't think she would want to.

And by 'coming around to the Chantry way of thinking' I didn't mean that she mindlessly adopted all of their beliefs. She just started to view the Maker as an important part of her life and to accept their doctrine that needlessly killing things was wrong.

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

He didn't bring a bloodmage @@ A mage, yes, not a bloodmage (I see no bloodmage spells cast from her). And again, you may not like a particular aspect of Zevran's story, and you think it was written badly, but you can't discount something that is actually written into his story. That he was hoping to die when going after the Gray Warden is a part of his story. Another part of his story is that the first opportunity he has to break free of the crows, he takes.

You may think this is poorly written or not very believable, but it is his story. it's ok to not like the character -- many people do not (many people do as well). But don't just discount what his story IS because you don't like him and think it's not believable. He's a fictional character, so what his author says is, is.

She is a bloodmage. For the lulz I maxed everyone's level once and the first thing she did was use Blood Wound.

If the author fails to show me the reader that the story is believeable yes I can discount it. A sucidial person doesn't bring along a mage (who are supposed to be ridculously overpowered in DA universe regardless blood mage or no.) Archers, traps and the like. Sort of like Leliana's trying to get away from the Bard life in the toolset. That's not what she shows in th game. Maybe that was also authorial intent but it never came across that way.

So yes I'm allowed to discount the story if I feel it rings false and is contradicted in the game.

It's not contradicted in the game.  you don't know how much of a choice he had as far as assembling a team went.  

But again, you may not like the way it's portrayed.  but you cannot discount what other people take as believable as a real argument IF it is clearly written.  It's a major part of his story, so you can't just say, "nope, i don't like it, so it didn't happen," to someone who is taking the story as it is written.

He chose not to bring along Taliesen who offered to come along.  But for all you know, his team was decided for him.  You just do not have the information about who chose what.

I looked up the character, and she actually is classed as a "nuker" not a blood mage (nor a blood mage nuker, which IS a class).  interesting that she cast that.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 novembre 2010 - 06:41 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

It's not contradicted in the game.  you don't know how much of a choice he had as far as assembling a team went.  

But again, you may not like the way it's portrayed.  but you cannot discount what other people take as believable as a real argument IF it is clearly written.  It's a major part of his story, so you can't just say, "nope, i don't like it, so it didn't happen," to someone who is taking the story as it is written.

He chose not to bring along Taliesen who offered to come along.  

I looked up the character, and she actually is classed as a "nuker" not a blood mage (nor a blood mage nuker, which IS a class).  interesting that she cast that.

*sighs* Believe me I've had the authorial intent debate far, far, far, too many times on HP sites to even start.

Needless to say we ae not going to agree. I am allowed to think it doesn't make sense and isn't proven in game you are allowed to think it does.

It is weird. Here I was slaughtering my ways through the lads when BW kills me.

My face: 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 06:46 .

[ejoslin]

maxernst wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

He didn't bring a bloodmage @@ A mage, yes, not a bloodmage (I see no bloodmage spells cast from her). And again, you may not like a particular aspect of Zevran's story, and you think it was written badly, but you can't discount something that is actually written into his story. That he was hoping to die when going after the Gray Warden is a part of his story. Another part of his story is that the first opportunity he has to break free of the crows, he takes.

You may think this is poorly written or not very believable, but it is his story. it's ok to not like the character -- many people do not (many people do as well). But don't just discount what his story IS because you don't like him and think it's not believable. He's a fictional character, so what his author says is, is.

You can, however, think he's lying.  Also, I disagree with the assertion that an author can't be wrong about his story.  Authorial intent and what's actually in the story are not the same.  We don't always succeed in expressing ourselves perfectly.

By the time he tells the story, it's not too likely that he's lying.  This is something he reveals only if at "friendly" or "adore".  A friend won't see it until after his personal quest is done.  there's no need for him to lie.

Many people don't find Zevran to be lying when he tells that story.  And since it is such am important one, and one he'll only tell when he completely trusts the warden, it's not too likely that it is a lie.  The author managed to portray the story just fine.  I think it someone doesn't like the character, they'll discount anything redeeming about him.  That doesn't mean it isn't there.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 novembre 2010 - 06:44 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

By the time he tells the story, it's not too likely that he's lying.  This is something he reveals only if at "friendly" or "adore".  A friend won't see it until after his personal quest is done.  there's no need for him to lie.

Many people don't find Zevran to be lying when he tells that story.  And since it is such am important one, and one he'll only tell when he completely trusts the warden, it's not too likely that it is a lie.  The author managed to portray the story just fine.  I think it someone doesn't like the character, they'll discount anything redeeming about him.  That doesn't mean it isn't there.

You were doing so well.

Not agreeing with you on something =/= anything redeeming about him.

And how is being suicidal a redeeming feature anyway?

Any why does he need a redeeming feature anyways? Unless something's wrong with him to start with?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 06:48 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It's not contradicted in the game.  you don't know how much of a choice he had as far as assembling a team went.  

But again, you may not like the way it's portrayed.  but you cannot discount what other people take as believable as a real argument IF it is clearly written.  It's a major part of his story, so you can't just say, "nope, i don't like it, so it didn't happen," to someone who is taking the story as it is written.

He chose not to bring along Taliesen who offered to come along.  

I looked up the character, and she actually is classed as a "nuker" not a blood mage (nor a blood mage nuker, which IS a class).  interesting that she cast that.

*sighs* Believe me I've had the authorial intent debate far, far, far, too many times on HP sites to even start.

Needless to say we ae not going to agree. I am allowed to think it doesn't make sense and isn't proven in game.

It is weird. Here I was slaughtering my ways through the lads when BW kills me.

My face: 

Believe it or not, I don't mind that you disagree -- the day i care about how someone else plays a single player game is the day I need to burn my computer.  However, if you take opinion about a story that contradicts the story and use it as an argument, it's frustrating when someone else is using in-game dialog to support what they believe. 

it would be like me saying, hmmmm, sten really isn't going to report back to the quanari because he respects the warden that much!  And sticking with it.  And when people point out the in-game dialog that contradicts that, me saying, "well, I don't agree because sten was calling me Kadan and obviously, Sten's honor is such that he will try to save Ferelden."

Or some other nonsense.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 novembre 2010 - 06:48 .

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It's not contradicted in the game.  you don't know how much of a choice he had as far as assembling a team went.  

But again, you may not like the way it's portrayed.  but you cannot discount what other people take as believable as a real argument IF it is clearly written.  It's a major part of his story, so you can't just say, "nope, i don't like it, so it didn't happen," to someone who is taking the story as it is written.

He chose not to bring along Taliesen who offered to come along.  

I looked up the character, and she actually is classed as a "nuker" not a blood mage (nor a blood mage nuker, which IS a class).  interesting that she cast that.

*sighs* Believe me I've had the authorial intent debate far, far, far, too many times on HP sites to even start.

Needless to say we ae not going to agree. I am allowed to think it doesn't make sense and isn't proven in game you are allowed to think it does.

It is weird. Here I was slaughtering my ways through the lads when BW kills me.

My face: 

This isn't really author intent, however. It's in the game. One of the characters actually says it. You can think that wasn't as suicidal as he thinks he was, lying (though ejoslin pointed out why that's unlikely), changed his mind, whatever, but it is still actually in the game that he informs you of his former suicidal tendencies.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...


Believe it or not, I don't mind that you disagree -- the day i care about how someone else plays a single player game is the day I need to burn my computer.  However, if you take opinion about a story that contradicts the story and use it as an argument, it's frustrating when someone else is using in-game dialog to support what they believe. 

it would be like me saying, hmmmm, sten really isn't going to report back to the quanari because he respects the warden that much!  And sticking with it.  And when people point out the in-game dialog that contradicts that, me saying, "well, I don't agree because sten was calling me Kadan and obviously, Sten's honor is such that he will try to save Ferelden."

Or some other nonsense.

Where does it contradict? 

...Sten's whole purpose being there is reporting to he arishok. He tells you he's going to. Its proven over and over that's what he's going to do. Zevran's so called "suicidal tendances" come out of nowhere.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote... This

isn't really author intent, however. It's in the game. One of the characters actually says it. You can think that wasn't as suicidal as he thinks he was, lying (though ejoslin pointed out why that's unlikely), changed his mind, whatever, but it is still actually in the game that he informs you of his former suicidal tendencies.

And it rings hollow to me because there's nothing to go along with it other than what he says.

I meant it being authorial intent as the author meant to back up his words but there's nothing supporting it. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 06:52 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

By the time he tells the story, it's not too likely that he's lying.  This is something he reveals only if at "friendly" or "adore".  A friend won't see it until after his personal quest is done.  there's no need for him to lie.

Many people don't find Zevran to be lying when he tells that story.  And since it is such am important one, and one he'll only tell when he completely trusts the warden, it's not too likely that it is a lie.  The author managed to portray the story just fine.  I think it someone doesn't like the character, they'll discount anything redeeming about him.  That doesn't mean it isn't there.

You were doin so well.

Not agreeing with you on something =/= anything redeeming about him.

And how is being suicidal a redeeming feature anyway? 

It's not so much that is the story as a whole, and how he wanted no part of being that person any more.  he didn't think it was possible to start again, and yet, he was given a chance and was grateful that he had that chance.  he was at the point where he realized what a monster he was, and how worthless he actually was.  He did not want to keep living the way he was, and saw no way out.  He fully expected to die, made sure his lover wasn't with him, and went after the warden, thinking it was the end.  And it doesn't always turn out that way.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

It's not so much that is the story as a whole, and how he wanted no part of being that person any more.  he didn't think it was possible to start again, and yet, he was given a chance and was grateful that he had that chance.  he was at the point where he realized what a monster he was, and how worthless he actually was.  He did not want to keep living the way he was, and saw no way out.  He fully expected to die, made sure his lover wasn't with him, and went after the warden, thinking it was the end.  And it doesn't always turn out that way.

We're not going to agree. I didn't see that as suicidal in the least bit. (Hell in the toolset it's said he's relieved you didn't kill him. How the hell is that suicidal?)

He attacks the Warden with a decent sized force, laid a trap, and tries to strike a deal once he's lost.

That doesn't look anything like being suicidal. At all

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 06:55 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...


Believe it or not, I don't mind that you disagree -- the day i care about how someone else plays a single player game is the day I need to burn my computer.  However, if you take opinion about a story that contradicts the story and use it as an argument, it's frustrating when someone else is using in-game dialog to support what they believe. 

it would be like me saying, hmmmm, sten really isn't going to report back to the quanari because he respects the warden that much!  And sticking with it.  And when people point out the in-game dialog that contradicts that, me saying, "well, I don't agree because sten was calling me Kadan and obviously, Sten's honor is such that he will try to save Ferelden."

Or some other nonsense.

Where does it contradict? 

...Sten's whole purpose being there is reporting to he arishok. He tells you he's going to. Its proven over and over that's what he's going to do. Zevran's so called "suicidal tendances" come out of nowhere.

Zevran's stating he wanted to die does not come out of nowhere.  You can hear in other dialogs just how bitter he is, though you can't be horrible rude nor can you be "yay yay murder' to hear them.

Edit; but of course he's not going to pour out his deepest feelings to someone he doesn't know/doesn't like/doesn't trust.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 novembre 2010 - 06:54 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Zevran's stating he wanted to die does not come out of nowhere.  You can hear in other dialogs just how bitter he is, though you can't be horrible rude nor can you be "yay yay murder' to hear them.

Edit; but of course he's not going to pour out his deepest feelings to someone he doesn't know/doesn't like/doesn't trust.

Being bitter and jaded =/= wanting to die.

Even in the playthroughs where I had him at 100+ Friendship/Love it still came out of nowhere. I got that he may have wanted to die but attacking the Warden always seemed apart from that. You don't ambush someone if youre doing a sucidial run. (Or you don't ambush them with a mini nuke with you).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 06:57 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It's not so much that is the story as a whole, and how he wanted no part of being that person any more.  he didn't think it was possible to start again, and yet, he was given a chance and was grateful that he had that chance.  he was at the point where he realized what a monster he was, and how worthless he actually was.  He did not want to keep living the way he was, and saw no way out.  He fully expected to die, made sure his lover wasn't with him, and went after the warden, thinking it was the end.  And it doesn't always turn out that way.

We're not going to agree. I didn't see that as suicidal in the least bit. (Hell in the toolset it's said he's relieved you didn't kill him. How the hell is that suicidal?)

He attacks the Warden with a decent sized force, laid a trap, and tries to strike a deal once he's lost.

That doesn't look anything like being suicidal. At all

Again, this is a later dialog.  i'm not sure if you've seen it or not.  But keep in mind, i'm not suicidal.  but I also thinks he means it when he said that he took the contract because he wanted to die.

edit; You wonder why he ambushed you when it seemed what he normally did was try to seduce the target.  you don't hear about him setting up ambushes.

And how much of an ambush is it when you have your person run up warning of an attack taht is about to happen?

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 novembre 2010 - 07:01 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Again, this is a later dialog.  i'm not sure if you've seen it or not.  But keep in mind, i'm not suicidal.  but I also thinks he means it when he said that he took the contract because he wanted to die.

See we're just not going to agree and go on and on and on and on for pages about how we disagree.

I never saw that as suicide.

Alistair and the Warden were fresh recruits and no where near as skilled as a older grey Warden would've been.

So...can we just agree to disagree? 

Edit: That is an ambush. She told you bandits attacked the wagon. You walk up there (like an idiot. <_< Why couldn't my smarter Wardens go "lol no." and leave?) and a tree nearly falls on you (and somehow you dodge even in massive armor ) then you're attacked on all sides with traps all around.

Yeah...how is that not an ambush?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 07:04 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Again, this is a later dialog.  i'm not sure if you've seen it or not.  But keep in mind, i'm not suicidal.  but I also thinks he means it when he said that he took the contract because he wanted to die.

See we're just not going to agree and go on and on and on and on for pages about how we disagree.

I never saw that as suicide.

Alistair and the Warden were fresh recruits and no where near as skilled as a older grey Warden would've been.

So...can we just agree to disagree? 

We're going to have to  Gah, I'm using a crappy keyboard and i'm dropping so many words and not able to capitalize anything.  *sigh* that should have said earlier, 'i'm not saying he's suicidal.'  i think a death wish is more likely

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...


We're going to have to  Gah, I'm using a crappy keyboard and i'm dropping so many words and not able to capitalize anything.  *sigh* that should have said earlier, 'i'm not saying he's suicidal.'  i think a death wish is more likely

Meh, I don't see a death wish as too believable either. So yes...I'll agree to disagree with you.

[maxernst]

ejoslin wrote...

maxernst wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

He didn't bring a bloodmage @@ A mage, yes, not a bloodmage (I see no bloodmage spells cast from her). And again, you may not like a particular aspect of Zevran's story, and you think it was written badly, but you can't discount something that is actually written into his story. That he was hoping to die when going after the Gray Warden is a part of his story. Another part of his story is that the first opportunity he has to break free of the crows, he takes.

You may think this is poorly written or not very believable, but it is his story. it's ok to not like the character -- many people do not (many people do as well). But don't just discount what his story IS because you don't like him and think it's not believable. He's a fictional character, so what his author says is, is.

You can, however, think he's lying.  Also, I disagree with the assertion that an author can't be wrong about his story.  Authorial intent and what's actually in the story are not the same.  We don't always succeed in expressing ourselves perfectly.

By the time he tells the story, it's not too likely that he's lying.  This is something he reveals only if at "friendly" or "adore".  A friend won't see it until after his personal quest is done.  there's no need for him to lie.

Many people don't find Zevran to be lying when he tells that story.  And since it is such am important one, and one he'll only tell when he completely trusts the warden, it's not too likely that it is a lie.  The author managed to portray the story just fine.  I think it someone doesn't like the character, they'll discount anything redeeming about him.  That doesn't mean it isn't there.

Here's an alternate reading.  Zevran is contracted to kill the Wardens.  He learns that they're very inexperienced--he's not dealing with Duncan and Riordan here--and concludes that he doesn't need to share the wealth with Taliesen.  When he actually springs his ambush, he very quickly realizes he's underestimated them and he's going to get his butt kicked.  So in desperation, he pleads for his life, figuring that he might just get another chance if he plays his cards right.  When he gets to Denerim, Taliesen manages to contact him or he somehow gets wind of Taliesen's plans, accounting for his sudden appearance on the scene, even if you don't have him with you at the time.  Now, the story can go one of two ways.  If travelling with you has persuaded him that maybe travelling with the Warden is a better deal than working for the Crows, he helps you fight off Taliesen, otherwise he helps him.

If he's in love with you, there are still reasons for him to lie--do you really think people in love are always honest with each other?  If anything, people probably lie more often to those they love because their opinion is more important to them.  First of all, he doesn't want to you to realize that when he gave his word when you spared his life, he didn't intend to keep it.  Secondly, the botched ambush is an affront to his pride--he did a lousy job of it, and he wants to give you another explanation rather than just a mistaken assessment.  He doesn't want you to have any second thoughts about his loyalty or his competence. 

I don't see anything in this interpretation that's contradicted by anything in the story, except Zevran's account, which you have no way of verifying. 

[EccentricSage]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

[quote]EccentricSage wrote...

That is only one possible perspective, though, just as with real religions.  Is there anything in-game about being rewarded for self sacrafice in the next life and your pursecutors punished?  I only remember there being the bit about the faithful going to the Maker's side after death.  I don't remember stipulations.  One could easily compare it to Christianity, and we know there are many widely varied practices and perspectives based around just that one religion.  I doubt the Antivan Chantry even teaches or behaves the same as the Ferelden and Orlesian Chantry, since the Chantry has less power there, and everyone fears the rath of the House of Crows.  The chantry there may even cater a bit to the social norms of Antiva, much as the Catholics have been known to do throughout history.  It's often as much about money and power as it is about preaching.[/quote]

I just added the last bit. But Gods as a whole usually don't give a sh** about human laws. They want you to do as their words bid and that's all. Even if you have to die for it. [/quote]

How would you know?  Even if you beleave in gods, who's to say weather that is the will of the god or the will of the men who claim to speek for god?  Needless to say, no one is a real authority on what 'god' wants, no matter who they claim to be.

[quote]
[quote]Zevran is a strange one, I must say.  I think he was afraid to give up, afraid to die, untill his understanding of what he is became unbearable.  Then he throws himself at the Wardens in hopes of a glorious death, only to once again discover he wants a new chance at life.  He's very conflicted, and full of traumatic experiences and supressed emotions.  I'd imagine that while he wanted to experience what life does have to offer, he also desperately wanted some hope for more meaning, or that he will at least find peace in death at the Maker's side.  Personaly I'd ask what kind of god would want for his creations to suffer so, but that is me.  I don't know how Zevran feels about that.  I actually do wish we had the option of asking him.[/quote]

Eh. I don't see where you see that. Frankly when he told me his attention was to die in combat I wanted an option to say "Are you f*cking kidding me? " and call him out on the bs. He brought a goddamn bloodmage. Wanted to die my bloody ass. [/quote]

Well, I guess you think he's making **** up just like I think Lelliana is a a good actress.  But I was pretty sure that Zevran throwing himself at the Wardens because it was a respectable way for a Crow to die was cannon.  I certainly don't think he was making up the story about Rinna and what that whole situation led him to believe.  Psichologicaly it makes sense to me.

[quote]
Suffering is supposed to show how much you are devoted to your god. That you would sufferif that's what following thir will lead to. [/quote]

That is a matter of opinion.  Just as with personal faith IRL.  If Andraste never called for such self sacrafice from all followers to be at the Maker's side, then it's just an opinion of yours, and not cannon in the game.

[quote]
[quote]Someone in the old Zevran thread did point out something interesting, btw.  If you ask for the reveared mother's blessing in Redcliff, Zevran does a special jesture of prayer.  I can't remember who said this, but she said in her country, that's an old Catholic jesture of prayer.  I'm having a hard time remembering her exact wording, but I think she said it is for a prayer in thanks for what you have, and in wanting for what you don't... or something like that...  Ah... I'm probably messing it up...  I wonder if any of the other Zev fans remember?
[/quote]

I find that interesting but still meh. I just dislike the guy. The funny thing is I dislike Morrigan just as much but can pick out so "dawww" moments with her. I can't do the same with Zevran without feeling contrived.

[quote][/quote]

Have you romanced Morrigan but not Zevran?  Because there's some great fluff with Zevran, too.  Not to mention, he'll be loyal and stay at the Warden's side as a friend or lover.  He's willing to give up his shot at freedom, which would be dissapearing imediately after Taliesen's death, in order to help the Warden end the Blight, even if you only just barely had his aproval high enough to prevent him from siding with Taliesen.  For me that's pretty baaaaw worthy.  I mean, one must remember, he had it as bad if not worse than Morrigan.  (It's hard to compare the two, as while they both had really rough upbringings, they were very different) 

Mind you, I respect that he just rubs you the wrong way.  Sometimes that's just how it is.  I'm not trying to change your mind with my acount of what is sweet about Zevran, so much as just explain where I'm coming from.

[quote]
I won't defend Morrigan here.  I like her as a character, but do argue with her often in the game, though she usually ends up my friend and having an understanding with my characters somehow.  XD  But there is plenty to get anoyed at her about.

My issue is not so much his bickering in Lothering, though he does say some pretty stupid things in counter to Morrigan's ignorant things.  (I wanted to tell them both to shut the hell up, SO BAD)  It's the fact Alistair judged her first, before she'd done anything to deserve it, when she first showed up and ended up helping us imensely.  I thought, after she gave us the documents we were looking for, that Alistair would chill.  So what if she's an apostate?  She had done us a great great service.  Then we got back to Dunkan, and I bring up that we met a mage in the wilds, thinking we should let Dunkan know that there's a loose canon out there who could be on our side... and Alistair blurts out all unhelpfully OMGZ Dunkan!  APOSTATES!!! in a tone that implied this is a terrible revalation.  That bothers me every damn time.[/quote]

The first thing she shows up is conviently right after we discover the treaties missing. We don't run into her. She as there. The whole thing is a setup. Alistair in my mind was right to be on his guard. (Heck I wanted to ask her "you were watching us? Why? What are you looking for? What do you want? " And after that she's just as rude to him as he is to her.

Not only that but you have to bring up the apostates for Alistair to even chime in. Otherwise he's just eager to get on with the joining.- [/quote]

I'm fine with him being on his guard and untrusting.  It is a foolish thing to trust in general.  That doesn't mean that one should be rude and throw around acusations and poorly thought out insults.  It may be perfectly true that they rescued the treaties for safe keeping, considering the terrible state of the ruins.  I would have been rude to Alistair myself, if I were in Morrigan's shoes during that scene.  He and Jorry were being stupid, acting that way towards the one holding their precious treaties.  Shame Daveth did not survive the joining, he showed more common sense.

I braught it up thinking 'Oh cool, Dunkan needs to know about who helped us, maybe she'll help us agains', Alistair's tone was as though the apostates atacked or something... I was seriously like WTF.

[quote]
[quote]Then you get rescued by Flemeth, and while it's wise not to trust them, as we do not know them and their intentions, fact of the matter is, they want to stop the blight, too.  Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall him showing any gratitude.  Really, while there are many objectionable things that Morrigan says, I can't really fault her for having it in for Alistair, as he was being a total douchebag to her, first.  My Mages and my Dalish both in particular felt offended and related to Morrigan on this issue.  My other wardens just felt embarased and anoyed that he's pissing off people who might be of help to us.p[/quote]

Honestly the two of them have been suspicious as all hell. (And ironically he's not all that rude to Flemeth at all and Morrigan's just as rude to him in the beginning at first). Morrigan was as much a douche as he was so they were both acting like preschoolers.

My Wardens would've followed her with a sword drawn. Too damn convienent her appearence is. [/quote]

Like I said, I understand suspicion.  It is wise.  But so is gratitude.  You do not have to trust to be grateful.  Morrigan treated my Warden differently than Alistair, which worked fine, as my Warden was polite to her.  My Warden did tell her to back off of Alistair when we got to Lothering though.  She crossed a line, mocking his mourning.  Though I understand why mourning is a hard concept for her, and why she hates Alistair.  I was really glad that in that one place in the game at least, the player gets a chance to mediate.

[quote]
I've never said that others never express negative views of eachother, mind you.  It just isn't what we're discussing.[/quote]

So why bring up Alistair's "self-righteousness" and justifible distrust of the man who tried to kill him?[/quote]

What does that have to do with everything the other characters ever say about eachother?

Besides, I even admited it was short lived and I mistakingly blew it out of porportion, because I've been so annoyed with him in my Mage playthrough.  My feelings colored my judgement a bit.  Though I still think he can be unintentionaly self rightious about things on ocasion, or at the very least very biased based uppon a religion he does not profes any deep faith in.

[quote]
[quote]I understand Alistair's dislike of Zevran early on, but he behaves stupidly about it.  Pissing contests were not getting anyone anywhere.  Zevran was mostly pretty light hearted about it, though, with the exception of when Alistair questioned his faith.  Zevran tended to win more points with me in their banters because he's much smarter than Alistair, and he doesn't get so personal.  I will say, I was really happy about the mod that restores the bugged banters, as they are rather friendly banters with the exception of jealous Zevran banter.  I was happy to see that in the later banters, Alistair does start to except Zevran.  Al has won back some points with me, now that I think about it.  When I'm playing a fairly new character it's easy to get caught up in what I'm experiencing of the companions through that character at the moment.  My mage's romance with Alistair is bringing up a tad more Alistair hate than I'd normally have.  XD [/quote]

Eh. I didn't see a pissing contest just some jabbing. I'm sure Zevran is more world wise than Alistair (which is an kind of intelligence) but smarter all around? No. Alistair no matter how hard he pretends is not an idiot . [/quote]

It's the 'you obviously don't know how to fight' banter.  I'm fine with him not liking Zevran, but that banter, like most of Al's banters, is pretty stupid and pointless.  I don't hate Alistair, even if I do not think he's the brightest.  Please provide me with some in-game evidence of intelect.  I don't see much from Alistair. 

[quote]
[quote]As for Zevran trying to kill the wardens... My wardens are usually very cautious with him at first, though it strikes them as no reason to backbite (with the exception of rough tent time) or act petty.  They're more interested in figuring him out well enough to know where they stand with him.  Sometimes they have a lot of sympathy for him, because they do believe what he said about being a slave and all that, and do find a kind side in him.  Others see him as useful, and being close enough to predict his actions and respectful enough to keep him on good terms to be paramount in leading a tight enough group to defeat a dire foe such as the Archdemon.  I don't really find it that hard to understand where Zevran is coming from, personaly.[/quote]

I do. Random guy tries to kil me and then offers a deal? Lol..no. I just kill him. I'd be more sympathetic if he didn't sound so happy about it all. Especially the killing convo. Ick. Half my Wardens that spare him send him on his way after that convo.[/quote]

The killing convo?  Is it the one where he's explaining why he's ok with the killing he had to do as a Crow?  I suppose I'm not as bothered because I see it as him excersising his right to kill to survive.  I'd probably kill to survive if I had to as well.  Hell, in the game, the Warden certainly does.  I do see where he is coming from on the topic.

Zev's chearful demeanor is one of the things I like about him.  He tries to make the most of the ****ty deal life has handed him, and tries to gain some measure of control over the situations he's in.  I love that he will try to say what he needs to say, to get a new chance, and if you say no, he accepts his impending death without groveling.  He doesn't let what is about to happen to him, change him.  That's probably part of how he managed to hang onto some self identity and sanity despite the Crow conditioning.

[quote][quote]
I don't think he realizes that he's a tad self rightious and a poor judge of character, but that does not change the fact that he acts in such a way.  There are simply many occassions where, despite my afection for Alistair, I want to slap him around a little and tell him to wake the f*** up.  If he's going to judge people, he should at least try to know them and apply SOME logic to his judgement of them, instead of living his life according to every knee-jerk reaction he has, based uppon a religious upbringing he professes not to even beleave in.  (the last bit being why I love listening the Zevran put him in his place.  XD)[/quote]

I don't see his self-righteousness. Now poor judge of character is something I can agree with. I have occassions like that as well. Still most people adly make snap judgements. And as you said before afer he gets to know the person he amends his judgement. (I love his gossip convo about Sten). It shows that while he is biast he tries to understand what's going on arond him. [/quote]

I guess we just have slightly different criteria.  But yes, I'm glad he begins to wake up a bit towards the end of the game, or the end of the banters.  lol  Though I don't think he ever figures out that Wynne is a blithering ideot who is in it for personal glory and has no clue what she's talking about most of the time, nor what it means that Lelliana was a Bard... that she is not as sweet and inocent as she seems.  I suppose I can let the confusion over Lel go, but Wynne?  And with the way she treats him?  I'd rather put up with being talked to the way Morrigan talks to him than the way Wynne talks to him.  At least Morrigan is streight forward about how she feels, no matter how ****y... I prefer honest hate over Wynne's pompous backhanded BS.

[quote]
[quote]I get where you are coming from on most things, except for Zev.  In my experience he ussually is really layed back about stuff.  What is he touchy about, aside from massacring people?

[/quote]

Meh. Just my HN pointing out their differences, not praising his assasin abilities (You got robbed by urchins? Seriously?), among other things. Like I said before it's not one specifi thing it's the whole package. Too me it's a very ugly and hideous package but you can't really pick out what specifically about it that repulses you so it just does.


 [quote][/quote]

I think it's unfair to mock him about that, as he was unconsious and nearly drowned.  It's kind of the jack ass dioalogue option.  Me, I reserve judgement when I talked to him, and was polite when I thought he was wrong, and that led to him revealing more about himself and the situations he's been in, as well as him ether giveing me extra approval or minimal dissaproval.

I get that he rubs you the wrong way, but if you chose the extreamly negative reactions to him every time, you may not have gotten to know him as fully.  Zev is tricky like that.  He has a bit of a wall up, but he wants someone to try to see past it... to care enough to try to find who he really is.  And when they do it means the world to him.

[quote] [quote]
See, I take it as more than a shut up, because that banter brings up a very valid point about Alistair, and then kind of throws it in his face.  It carries more weight than a simple missunderstanding and Zevran wanting to end the conversation.  I second that, though... I wanted to talk to him about it, too.[/quote]

Personal interpretation then. I don't see it as throwing anything in Alistair's face. His last line is kind of when someone's logic is so twisted you really can't say anything. [/quote]

Do you mean that Alistair's logic is twisted, or Zevrans in this case.  Personaly, I'm in agreement with Zevran.  Which is funny as I'm not religious.  But if another's personal beliefs don't involve denying me mine, then cool.  I like the fact he doesn't bother people about it.

[quote]
[quote]I really just don't understand WHERE you are seeing Zevran being a bit too touchy, though.  Not for lack of trying mind you, I'm not discounting your point.  Could you give me some paraphrased examples, or just indicate which dialogues or banters you're talking about?  Are you talking about his disaproval if you choose the more extreme reactions to him in the early dialogues?  Or is it his reaction in a party banter?  I thought, with the exception of bringing up love after sex, that he usually is pretty mild in his judgement of others and light hearted in his reactions.  And of course, there's a good reason why he freeks out over bringing up love, but one has to follow through with the romance to see how that plays out.[/quote]

It's a whole rather than a few snippets. I'm not going to list them because it'll just lead to a spiraling argument that'll go nowhere.

His so called "suicidal" tendances isa large part of that. [/quote]

I don't get what you mean.  Just one solid example would help.  As for suicidal tendancies, what thread were we arguing on before?  I couldn't remember, and thus could not find it.  XD

[quote]
[quote]I think I can understand why he'd creep you out, though.  I was already fascinated with the character before I even got the game, but he creeped me out at first, too, once I finaly got him... Adored him, but sometimes his coldness reguarding death and sex is really unsettling, though I found as I explored his dialogue that he's not as cold as he tries to seem.  But the sex with marks who KNOW he's an assassin and that they are going to die... I can see how that's chilling and hard for most people to get past.  For me, it's part of what's fascinating about him, though... his psychology... and that anyone as deeply messed up as he is can still experience love and show compassion.  But I understand that some can't get past that.  Though, on the other hand, Lelliana probably has done much of the same... she just doesn't go into detail for you in dialogue about her missions.  She's so purposefully vague and distant about her life as a Bard.  Part of why I respect Zev more... He doesn't hide what he's done.

[/quote]

Ick. Personally I don't feel it that way. I'd have a lot more respect for the character had he simply killed them outright or had used sex to get close enough to kill them. He didn't so...urgh. I don't find that fascinating I find him sick and disgusting.

I like Leliana's vagueness and distance. It gives the illusion at least that she's trying to move past that. While Zevran seems like he find it enjoyable enough and can sell you out to go back to the life at any moment

[/quote][/quote]

I like his honesty about his past.  If the warden is to judge him, then he will have himself judged for who and what he really is.  It is sick, but he trully seems to believe it's what they wanted, too.  Antiva is pretty screwed up, and it's strongly Implied Zevran was sexualy abused even before the Crows baught him at the age of seven, so I really feal for the character.  He does not have anything even resembling what we'd consider a normal perspective on sexuality... he was never allowed any inosense.  I guess that's part of why I find giving him a second chance and seeing him truly find a new life with real meaning, love, and friendship so rewarding.

To me it's more like Lelliana wants to just shrug and go 'that's not who I am now' and not face up to what she's WILLINGLY done.  Likewise, it's stupidly easy to revert her back to her Bard ways and get her bantering with Alistair about how it's not so bad that she seduced people to kill them.  She's not so reformed if she reverts that easily.

Zevran actually will soften and reveal over time that a lot of his attitude about being a Crow was bravado.  He was not happy, it was not glorious, and he did actually find it hard to be cold.  It just takes a little digging to get him to take off that mask of the proud and chearful killer and begin to admit that he's hurt a lot, and that survival was hard, but was all he had.

[Sarah1281]

I think it's unfair to mock him about that, as he was unconsious and nearly drowned. It's kind of the jack ass dioalogue option.

But it's completely fair to troll Leliana with the 'Yeah, you know how you believe in the Maker? Well, other people who believe in the Maker and who we've already established you've disagreed with on several points believe that the Maker sent darkspawn to punish mankind. Why do you not want darkspawn to kill everyone and destroy the world, anyway? God, you're such a hypocrite!'?

. Likewise, it's stupidly easy to revert her back to her Bard ways and get her bantering with Alistair about how it's not so bad that she seduced people to kill them.

For the love of God, she does NOT revert so easily! Until we see any evidence at all that she is back to being a bard or seducing and killing people then you cannot say that she reverted! She does, in banters, defend her actions along the lines of 'I could have done worse' but in case you didn't notice, Zevran also defends some of HIS more questionable actions. "Hey, at least I was willing to grant her request to sleep with me so as to try to convince me to spare her life. Which I didn't" comes to mind. You really seem to have a double standard here because you like Zevran and dislike Leliana. Her being more open about her past actions does not mean she will do them in the future. You telling her that she shouldn't be ashamed of who she is (in the context of the 'I wanted to kill Marjolaine because she's an evil **** who ruined my life and never would have stopped hunting me so I must be a bad person' and 'I have to admit, I get an adrenaline rush from the thrill of the hunt and that makes me a bad person') does not instantly turn her into a bard again.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 17 novembre 2010 - 08:06 .