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[Giggles_Manically]

Shhh Sarah Shhh....

Let the troll, troll and let it go.



No point in arguing with trolls since it never does anything really.

[ejoslin]

maxernst wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

maxernst wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

He didn't bring a bloodmage @@ A mage, yes, not a bloodmage (I see no bloodmage spells cast from her). And again, you may not like a particular aspect of Zevran's story, and you think it was written badly, but you can't discount something that is actually written into his story. That he was hoping to die when going after the Gray Warden is a part of his story. Another part of his story is that the first opportunity he has to break free of the crows, he takes.

You may think this is poorly written or not very believable, but it is his story. it's ok to not like the character -- many people do not (many people do as well). But don't just discount what his story IS because you don't like him and think it's not believable. He's a fictional character, so what his author says is, is.

You can, however, think he's lying.  Also, I disagree with the assertion that an author can't be wrong about his story.  Authorial intent and what's actually in the story are not the same.  We don't always succeed in expressing ourselves perfectly.

By the time he tells the story, it's not too likely that he's lying.  This is something he reveals only if at "friendly" or "adore".  A friend won't see it until after his personal quest is done.  there's no need for him to lie.

Many people don't find Zevran to be lying when he tells that story.  And since it is such am important one, and one he'll only tell when he completely trusts the warden, it's not too likely that it is a lie.  The author managed to portray the story just fine.  I think it someone doesn't like the character, they'll discount anything redeeming about him.  That doesn't mean it isn't there.

Here's an alternate reading.  Zevran is contracted to kill the Wardens.  He learns that they're very inexperienced--he's not dealing with Duncan and Riordan here--and concludes that he doesn't need to share the wealth with Taliesen.  When he actually springs his ambush, he very quickly realizes he's underestimated them and he's going to get his butt kicked.  So in desperation, he pleads for his life, figuring that he might just get another chance if he plays his cards right.  When he gets to Denerim, Taliesen manages to contact him or he somehow gets wind of Taliesen's plans, accounting for his sudden appearance on the scene, even if you don't have him with you at the time.  Now, the story can go one of two ways.  If travelling with you has persuaded him that maybe travelling with the Warden is a better deal than working for the Crows, he helps you fight off Taliesen, otherwise he helps him.

If he's in love with you, there are still reasons for him to lie--do you really think people in love are always honest with each other?  If anything, people probably lie more often to those they love because their opinion is more important to them.  First of all, he doesn't want to you to realize that when he gave his word when you spared his life, he didn't intend to keep it.  Secondly, the botched ambush is an affront to his pride--he did a lousy job of it, and he wants to give you another explanation rather than just a mistaken assessment.  He doesn't want you to have any second thoughts about his loyalty or his competence. 

I don't see anything in this interpretation that's contradicted by anything in the story, except Zevran's account, which you have no way of verifying. 

The crows know you're in Denerim no matter what.  Ignacio certainly knows.  Taliesen confronts you no matter what, even if you kill or let Zevran go.  He made the vow because he was tied up and helpless, that doesn't mean he was intending to break it.  More likely, he was just going along with this new situation he found himself in.

He and Taliesen were lovers.  He told Taliesen not to come, but I doubt it was because he had to split anything with him.

See, I am going by what the game says.  There are times Zevran lies, there's no doubt about that.  but this, when he finally confesses his final mission, it doesn't come across as a lie.  he will tell it to his lover (at adore, you don't have to be in love) or his friend (personal quest done).

You're making an alternative situation that has no basis in any information that is given in the game.  I'm judging the situation by what IS in the game.  It makes for a frustrating argument, because once you start making things up, there's nothing more i can really say except if *I* want to make stuff up.  But I don't.  I think his story stands on its own.

[Ryzaki]

[quote]EccentricSage wrote...
How would you know?  Even if you beleave in gods, who's to say weather that is the will of the god or the will of the men who claim to speek for god?  Needless to say, no one is a real authority on what 'god' wants, no matter who they claim to be.[/quote]
EccentricSage. Can you remove the quotes that I quoted of yours? Because it just makes the whle post needless gigantic.
Anyways never said I wasjust what seemed to be the norm. Maybe the Maker doesn't but there's nothing that shows that in game. Meanwhile we have Andraste and the people with her as matrys.
[quote]
Well, I guess you think he's making **** up just like I think Lelliana is a a good actress.  But I was pretty sure that Zevran throwing himself at the Wardens because it was a respectable way for a Crow to die was cannon.  I certainly don't think he was making up the story about Rinna and what that whole situation led him to believe.  Psichologicaly it makes sense to me. [/quote]
I already we over that with ejolsin. Him laying a trap is not sucidial in the least, him making a deal for his life is not suicidal.
[quote]
That is a matter of opinion.  Just as with personal faith IRL.  If Andraste never called for such self sacrafice from all followers to be at the Maker's side, then it's just an opinion of yours, and not cannon in the game.[/quote]
Ah true. I guess real religion has colored my views on the Maker a bit too much. We don't see the Maker trying to alleviate people's sufferings however. So one could say that is his will.
[quote]
Have you romanced Morrigan but not Zevran?  Because there's some great fluff with Zevran, too.  Not to mention, he'll be loyal and stay at the Warden's side as a friend or lover.  He's willing to give up his shot at freedom, which would be dissapearing imediately after Taliesen's death, in order to help the Warden end the Blight, even if you only just barely had his aproval high enough to prevent him from siding with Taliesen.  For me that's pretty baaaaw worthy.  I mean, one must remember, he had it as bad if not worse than Morrigan.  (It's hard to compare the two, as while they both had really rough upbringings, they were very different) [/quote]
I've romanced everyone. I didn't find it to be baaaw though. 

[quote]Mind you, I respect that he just rubs you the wrong way.  Sometimes that's just how it is.  I'm not trying to change your mind with my acount of what is sweet about Zevran, so much as just explain where I'm coming from.[/quote] Oh that's just fine.

[quote]
I'm fine with him being on his guard and untrusting.  It is a foolish thing to trust in general.  That doesn't mean that one should be rude and throw around acusations and poorly thought out insults.  It may be perfectly true that they rescued the treaties for safe keeping, considering the terrible state of the ruins.  I would have been rude to Alistair myself, if I were in Morrigan's shoes during that scene.  He and Jorry were being stupid, acting that way towards the one holding their precious treaties.  Shame Daveth did not survive the joining, he showed more common sense. [/quote]

Rude? How was he being rude? And Zev is pretty damn rude himself. Though Morrigan didn't give him much of a reason *not* to be rude. That said I think it's when you see that one person and your hackles rise. You don't know why..they just do. Some sort of base animal instinct makes you want to snarl at them. I get the feeling ths is what Morrigan and Alistair felt for each other.

[quote]I braught it up thinking 'Oh cool, Dunkan needs to know about who helped us, maybe she'll help us agains', Alistair's tone was as though the apostates atacked or something... I was seriously like WTF.
[/quote]

I felt they would've been better off with my PC saying nothing about them. I didn't see his tone that way..more of a "they're suspicious duncan..." before Duncan tells him to chil.
[quote]
Like I said, I understand suspicion.  It is wise.  But so is gratitude.  You do not have to trust to be grateful.  Morrigan treated my Warden differently than Alistair, which worked fine, as my Warden was polite to her.  My Warden did tell her to back off of Alistair when we got to Lothering though.  She crossed a line, mocking his mourning.  Though I understand why mourning is a hard concept for her, and why she hates Alistair.  I was really glad that in that one place in the game at least, the player gets a chance to mediate.
[/quote]
He doesn't thank Flemeth? I could've sworn he does. Why would he be grateful to Morrigan who calls him a fool and a wimp for mourning? Now my PC was grateful to Morrigan and polite. 
Frankly I would've just told them to go ahead and fight it out already.
[quote]
What does that have to do with everything the other characters ever say about eachother?
Besides, I even admited it was short lived and I mistakingly blew it out of porportion, because I've been so annoyed with him in my Mage playthrough.  My feelings colored my judgement a bit.  Though I still think he can be unintentionaly self rightious about things on ocasion, or at the very least very biased based uppon a religion he does not profes any deep faith in.
[/quote]
Eh. I don't see self-righteous. Wrong judgements yes but not self-righteous ness. Though I always find that dialogue in the MT with the blood mage hilarious.
[quote]
It's the 'you obviously don't know how to fight' banter.  I'm fine with him not liking Zevran, but that banter, like most of Al's banters, is pretty stupid and pointless.  I don't hate Alistair, even if I do not think he's the brightest.  Please provide me with some in-game evidence of intelect.  I don't see much from Alistair. 
[/quote]
Really? You see no intelligence from Alistair? At all? Like when he tells about the Chantries abuse of the templars? When he points out that you need Eamon's help to take down Loghain? Or (if you PCs cunning isn' high enough)bringing up the treaties? 
And honestly I saw that as poking. Zevran does go on and on about how good he is but he got defeated. The arrogance gets annoying at time.
[quote]
The killing convo?  Is it the one where he's explaining why he's ok with the killing he had to do as a Crow?  I suppose I'm not as bothered because I see it as him excersising his right to kill to survive.  I'd probably kill to survive if I had to as well.  Hell, in the game, the Warden certainly does.  I do see where he is coming from on the topic.[/quote]
The one where he talks about enjoying it. Ick. My Warden only kills we its necessary and find no enjoyment in taking life. Thus their disgust. Killing someone isn't something they take lightly.

[quote]Zev's chearful demeanor is one of the things I like about him.  He tries to make the most of the ****ty deal life has handed him, and tries to gain some measure of control over the situations he's in.  I love that he will try to say what he needs to say, to get a new chance, and if you say no, he accepts his impending death without groveling.  He doesn't let what is about to happen to him, change him.  That's probably part of how he managed to hang onto some self identity and sanity despite the Crow conditioning.[/quote]I find it weird to be honest. I'd like it if he was a bit more reserved and less cheerful.
[quote]
I guess we just have slightly different criteria.  But yes, I'm glad he begins to wake up a bit towards the end of the game, or the end of the banters.  lol  Though I don't think he ever figures out that Wynne is a blithering ideot who is in it for personal glory and has no clue what she's talking about most of the time, nor what it means that Lelliana was a Bard... that she is not as sweet and inocent as she seems.  I suppose I can let the confusion over Lel go, but Wynne?  And with the way she treats him?  I'd rather put up with being talked to the way Morrigan talks to him than the way Wynne talks to him.  At least Morrigan is streight forward about how she feels, no matter how ****y... I prefer honest hate over Wynne's pompous backhanded BS.
[/quote]
I think he's so desperate for a mother figure he'll take it from everyone. Thus his liking of Wynne. Leliana on the other hand is nice and helpful and even though she has a bad past (you can see it in that MT dialogue that he knows the Chantry will take in murders, thieves and bandits) she is trying to make up for it. He never gets anything similar from Zevran.
[quote]
I think it's unfair to mock him about that, as he was unconsious and nearly drowned.  It's kind of the jack ass dioalogue option.  Me, I reserve judgement when I talked to him, and was polite when I thought he was wrong, and that led to him revealing more about himself and the situations he's been in, as well as him ether giveing me extra approval or minimal dissaproval.[/quote]
Meh. It was teasing on my PCs part and he got all uppity about it.

[quote]I get that he rubs you the wrong way, but if you chose the extreamly negative reactions to him every time, you may not have gotten to know him as fully.  Zev is tricky like that.  He has a bit of a wall up, but he wants someone to try to see past it... to care enough to try to find who he really is.  And when they do it means the world to him.[/quote]
He rubs me the wrong way and gah. I just can't explain it. I just don't like him.
[quote]
Do you mean that Alistair's logic is twisted, or Zevrans in this case.  Personaly, I'm in agreement with Zevran.  Which is funny as I'm not religious.  But if another's personal beliefs don't involve denying me mine, then cool.  I like the fact he doesn't bother people about it.[/quote]
I found it to be Zevran's.
I don't get what you mean.  Just one solid example would help.  As for suicidal tendancies, what thread were we arguing on before?  I couldn't remember, and thus could not find it.  XD [/quote]
Yes and it'll not end well so let's agree to disagree.
[quote]
I like his honesty about his past.  If the warden is to judge him, then he will have himself judged for who and what he really is.  It is sick, but he trully seems to believe it's what they wanted, too.  Antiva is pretty screwed up, and it's strongly Implied Zevran was sexualy abused even before the Crows baught him at the age of seven, so I really feal for the character.  He does not have anything even resembling what we'd consider a normal perspective on sexuality... he was never allowed any inosense.  I guess that's part of why I find giving him a second chance and seeing him truly find a new life with real meaning, love, and friendship so rewarding.[/quote]
Yes his life has sucked. But I feel the same way about him as I do Jack. Your life sucked but I can't force myself to like you.
[quote]
To me it's more like Lelliana wants to just shrug and go 'that's not who I am now' and not face up to what she's WILLINGLY done.  Likewise, it's stupidly easy to revert her back to her Bard ways and get her bantering with Alistair about how it's not so bad that she seduced people to kill them.  She's not so reformed if she reverts that easily.
Zevran actually will soften and reveal over time that a lot of his attitude about being a Crow was bravado.  He was not happy, it was not glorious, and he did actually find it hard to be cold.  It just takes a little digging to get him to take off that mask of the proud and chearful killer and begin to admit that he's hurt a lot, and that survival was hard, but was all he had.
[/quote]
True that. But I doubt she can revert. Isn't she wanted for treason to a whole country? Besides it was more justification than anything.
I never saw him regretting kill his targets. (Hell he even gives you the earring from one of them ) Just kiling Rianna.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 08:20 .

[ejoslin]

The earring... It really does show how little he has ever had, doesn't it. It's the only thing that has any meaning to him that he has. the first mark... funny thing that... he was most likely a young teenager when he used seduction to get to this mark.  Definitely a morbid story.

Edit; i always refuse the earring the first time it's offered.  it's funny watching Zevran get that frustrated.  besides, find that conversation hurtful.  It always surprises me when people don't realize that his romance actually continues past that dialog.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 novembre 2010 - 08:31 .

[maxernst]

ejoslin wrote...

maxernst wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

maxernst wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

He didn't bring a bloodmage @@ A mage, yes, not a bloodmage (I see no bloodmage spells cast from her). And again, you may not like a particular aspect of Zevran's story, and you think it was written badly, but you can't discount something that is actually written into his story. That he was hoping to die when going after the Gray Warden is a part of his story. Another part of his story is that the first opportunity he has to break free of the crows, he takes.

You may think this is poorly written or not very believable, but it is his story. it's ok to not like the character -- many people do not (many people do as well). But don't just discount what his story IS because you don't like him and think it's not believable. He's a fictional character, so what his author says is, is.

You can, however, think he's lying.  Also, I disagree with the assertion that an author can't be wrong about his story.  Authorial intent and what's actually in the story are not the same.  We don't always succeed in expressing ourselves perfectly.

By the time he tells the story, it's not too likely that he's lying.  This is something he reveals only if at "friendly" or "adore".  A friend won't see it until after his personal quest is done.  there's no need for him to lie.

Many people don't find Zevran to be lying when he tells that story.  And since it is such am important one, and one he'll only tell when he completely trusts the warden, it's not too likely that it is a lie.  The author managed to portray the story just fine.  I think it someone doesn't like the character, they'll discount anything redeeming about him.  That doesn't mean it isn't there.

Here's an alternate reading.  Zevran is contracted to kill the Wardens.  He learns that they're very inexperienced--he's not dealing with Duncan and Riordan here--and concludes that he doesn't need to share the wealth with Taliesen.  When he actually springs his ambush, he very quickly realizes he's underestimated them and he's going to get his butt kicked.  So in desperation, he pleads for his life, figuring that he might just get another chance if he plays his cards right.  When he gets to Denerim, Taliesen manages to contact him or he somehow gets wind of Taliesen's plans, accounting for his sudden appearance on the scene, even if you don't have him with you at the time.  Now, the story can go one of two ways.  If travelling with you has persuaded him that maybe travelling with the Warden is a better deal than working for the Crows, he helps you fight off Taliesen, otherwise he helps him.

If he's in love with you, there are still reasons for him to lie--do you really think people in love are always honest with each other?  If anything, people probably lie more often to those they love because their opinion is more important to them.  First of all, he doesn't want to you to realize that when he gave his word when you spared his life, he didn't intend to keep it.  Secondly, the botched ambush is an affront to his pride--he did a lousy job of it, and he wants to give you another explanation rather than just a mistaken assessment.  He doesn't want you to have any second thoughts about his loyalty or his competence. 

I don't see anything in this interpretation that's contradicted by anything in the story, except Zevran's account, which you have no way of verifying. 

The crows know you're in Denerim no matter what.  Ignacio certainly knows.  Taliesen confronts you no matter what, even if you kill or let Zevran go.  He made the vow because he was tied up and helpless, that doesn't mean he was intending to break it.  More likely, he was just going along with this new situation he found himself in.

He and Taliesen were lovers.  He told Taliesen not to come, but I doubt it was because he had to split anything with him.

See, I am going by what the game says.  There are times Zevran lies, there's no doubt about that.  but this, when he finally confesses his final mission, it doesn't come across as a lie.  he will tell it to his lover (at adore, you don't have to be in love) or his friend (personal quest done).

You're making an alternative situation that has no basis in any information that is given in the game.  I'm judging the situation by what IS in the game.  It makes for a frustrating argument, because once you start making things up, there's nothing more i can really say except if *I* want to make stuff up.  But I don't.  I think his story stands on its own.

How does Zevran know not only that Taliesen is going to attack you but when and where he's going to do it?  Or does he just follow you all the time, which is suspicious enough in itself?  Nor do you account for the fact that if being a Crow was so horrible that it made him suicidal, but apparently it's not as bad as simply being ignored by the Warden. 

As to why he would have to split the proceeds with Taliesen, the answer is obvious.  They're assassins, they're paid to do this.  Presumably all the people with Zevran are people he has hired for the purpose--you think they're all doing it for love?  Taliesen's highly skilled, so he would cost more.  The more skilled people Zevran brings with him, the less his profits.  There's nothing in the game that suggests to me that Taliesen loves Zevran so much that he'd put his life on the line for free.

I'm making an alternative situation which in my opinion is more plausible than the story Zevran tells.  I have difficulties believing that someone who is heavily armed and knows all about poison can't simply kill himself in a straight-forward manner, or try and take on the wardens himself, but has to hire a bunch of people to help him kill himself and get killed in the process.

Your opinion is based just as much on the fact that you like and trust Zevran as mine is on the fact that I don't. 

[ejoslin]

maxernst wrote...

How does Zevran know not only that Taliesen is going to attack you but when and where he's going to do it?  Or does he just follow you all the time, which is suspicious enough in itself?  Nor do you account for the fact that if being a Crow was so horrible that it made him suicidal, but apparently it's not as bad as simply being ignored by the Warden. 

As to why he would have to split the proceeds with Taliesen, the answer is obvious.  They're assassins, they're paid to do this.  Presumably all the people with Zevran are people he has hired for the purpose--you think they're all doing it for love?  Taliesen's highly skilled, so he would cost more.  The more skilled people Zevran brings with him, the less his profits.  There's nothing in the game that suggests to me that Taliesen loves Zevran so much that he'd put his life on the line for free.

I'm making an alternative situation which in my opinion is more plausible than the story Zevran tells.  I have difficulties believing that someone who is heavily armed and knows all about poison can't simply kill himself in a straight-forward manner, or try and take on the wardens himself, but has to hire a bunch of people to help him kill himself and get killed in the process.

Your opinion is based just as much on the fact that you like and trust Zevran as mine is on the fact that I don't. 

You're assuming he had a choice about taking a team with him.

There is quite a bit in the game that doesn't make that much sense on close examination.  Taliesen does confront the warden no matter what, even if you kill Zevran or let him go, so it's not Zevran who told Taliesen about the warden.  Taliesen hasn't spoken with Zevran as their conversation indicates that (either that, or they're putting on a hell of an act for the warden). 

My opinion can be backed up by in-game dialog.  That's what formed my opinion.

As far as Taliesen offering to come along, i take it you haven't seen that dialog (it's not the easiest one to see -- most Zevran fans are surprised by it as well).  See, Zevran and Taliesen were lovers, as close a thing to friends as you can get in their situation, and very much partners in crime, so to speak.

Edit; I don't sugar coat Zevran, though i see on other boards people who do.  There's a lot ugly about his story, a lot tragic, and about his person, the impression I get is a strong, intelligent person who is most likely way above average in many respects and knows it.  I get that he was a killer; i also get that if he really wanted to kill the warden, he had so many opportunities the moment you took him into the party that it just seems completely unlikely that that was what he was trying to do.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 novembre 2010 - 08:49 .

[Wulfram]

ejoslin wrote...

Taliesen does confront the warden no matter what, even if you kill Zevran or let him go, so it's not Zevran who told Taliesen about the warden.

Does he?  I've never had Taliesen appear without Zevran still being around, though looking at the toolset there's dialogue for if he's dead or gone.

[ejoslin]

Wulfram wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Taliesen does confront the warden no matter what, even if you kill Zevran or let him go, so it's not Zevran who told Taliesen about the warden.

Does he?  I've never had Taliesen appear without Zevran still being around, though looking at the toolset there's dialogue for if he's dead or gone.

He supposed to, yes.  Though admittedly, I've never not had Zevran in my group so there could be a bug preventing it I suppose.

[Ryzaki]

^The above. I've never had Taliesan show up if I killed Zev either. Frankly it would've annoyed me if he had. I kill Zev so I *didn't* have to deal with another ambush.

Also are you sure if the dead isn't if he was recruited and then killed?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:04 .

[ejoslin]

I'm looking over the code and the ambush may not happen if Zevran isn't recruited -- if i'm looking at the correct script, it looks like it only has two contingencies. I assumed it did because of the dialog in the toolset.

Still, given the dialog between Zevran and Taliesen, unless they're putting on a hell of an act, Zevran wasn't a part of the ambush and had not been in contact with Taliesen.  The conversation between them says the absolute opposite.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:10 .

[Ryzaki]

Huh. In game the ambush doesn't happen if you slit his throat to begin with. My one guy that told him to screw off didn't get it either actually...huh.



Well...Zev is a good actor..XD

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

Huh. In game the ambush doesn't happen if you slit his throat to begin with. My one guy that told him to screw off didn't get it either actually...huh.

Well...Zev is a good actor..XD

But there'd be no point.  Especially if he's going to betray you.  They hadn't seen each other, that is apparent.

Gah, ok, screw it -- this is so incredibly stupid.  i will go by the game dialog, and anyone who wants to argue it, be my guest -- feel free to change the story, and decide any dialog that doesn't agree with the way you see the character as false.  I will go by what the characters actually say.

bleh, i feel like making a bunch of stuff up about characters too, and then when people contradict me because i'm going against what is said in the game, tell them i never see it or the character is lying.  Makes for a great debate @@

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:14 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...
But there'd be no point.  Especially if he's going to betray you.  They hadn't seen each other, that is apparent.

Gah, ok, screw it -- this is so incredibly stupid.  i will go by the game dialog, and anyone who wants to argue it, be my guest -- feel free to change the story, and decide any dialog that doesn't agree with the way you see the character as false.  I will go by what the characters actually say.

bleh, i feel like making a bunch of stuff up about characters too, and then when people contradict me because i'm going against what is said in the game, tell them i never see it or the character is lying.  Makes for a great debate @@

You can't take a joke very well can you?

Step back. Remember these are fictional characters and there's no need to get so offended.

Also no one says dialogue is false if you don't agree with it. ON the other hand if said dialogue (and no I'm not talking about the Talisan incident here) isn't supported by anything in game one is perfectly validated in disagreeing with it.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:17 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Huh. In game the ambush doesn't happen if you slit his throat to begin with. My one guy that told him to screw off didn't get it either actually...huh.

Well...Zev is a good actor..XD

But there'd be no point.  Especially if he's going to betray you.  They hadn't seen each other, that is apparent.

Gah, ok, screw it -- this is so incredibly stupid.  i will go by the game dialog, and anyone who wants to argue it, be my guest -- feel free to change the story, and decide any dialog that doesn't agree with the way you see the character as false.  I will go by what the characters actually say.

bleh, i feel like making a bunch of stuff up about characters too, and then when people contradict me because i'm going against what is said in the game, tell them i never see it or the character is lying.  Makes for a great debate @@

You can't take a joke very well can you?

Step back. Remember these are fictional characters and there's no need to get so offended.

I'm not offended at all.  i'm done with this particular argument though.  I seriously do not care what anyone thinks about any of the characters -- this is a single player game and people should play the way they enjoy.  what is annoying is the argument itself for the reason i stated.

Edit; see, the point of view i have is totally irrelevant if everything that is in game is dismissed as "lying" or "inccorect" because it doesn't fit in with the view someone has of the character and they don't want to accept that it IS part of the way the character is portrayed.  I've had this same argument over Leliana as well, where people make things up because they don't understand the character or they ran into bugs that really ticked them off.  It gets tiresome.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:22 .

[Ryzaki]

But like I said before there's nothing to support it (the suicidal thing not Taliesan) other than his words. Words only hold so much weight. As the saying goes. "You show what you mean by your actions not your words."

That said you did say you're done with the arguement so I won't say anything more.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:22 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

But like I said before there's nothing to support it (the suicidal thing not Taliesan) other than his words. Words only hold so much weight. As the saying goes. "You show what you mean by your actions not your words."

But you can say that about a lot of things the characters say.  You DO have to accept them at their word.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:25 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

But like I said before there's nothing to support it (the suicidal thing not Taliesan) other than his words. Words only hold so much weight. As the saying goes. "You show what you mean by your actions not your words."

But you can say that about a lot of things the characters say.  You DO have to accept them at their word.  

Not when that word contradicts their actions.

[ejoslin]

The confession about his final mission comes at a point where it's unlikely that he's lying. just dismissing it takes away a lot of what actually defines zevran as a character. it answers why he wanted to quit the crows, why he wanted to do anything to leave, why he wanted to change. And yes, why he would take on a mission that most likely would mean his death -- that no other crow would take.

Had that final mission not happened, given the stories he tells about how he used seduction to get close to his marks, he would have done what he could to get into the warden's good graces (most likely not an ambush), joined the party, and poisoned everyone.

Edit; Again, i get that you don't like the character.  It's amazing writing when you can actually take a dislike to a character (like i cannot stand wynne and kill her most of the time).

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:29 .

[maxernst]

ejoslin wrote...

maxernst wrote...

How does Zevran know not only that Taliesen is going to attack you but when and where he's going to do it?  Or does he just follow you all the time, which is suspicious enough in itself?  Nor do you account for the fact that if being a Crow was so horrible that it made him suicidal, but apparently it's not as bad as simply being ignored by the Warden. 

As to why he would have to split the proceeds with Taliesen, the answer is obvious.  They're assassins, they're paid to do this.  Presumably all the people with Zevran are people he has hired for the purpose--you think they're all doing it for love?  Taliesen's highly skilled, so he would cost more.  The more skilled people Zevran brings with him, the less his profits.  There's nothing in the game that suggests to me that Taliesen loves Zevran so much that he'd put his life on the line for free.

I'm making an alternative situation which in my opinion is more plausible than the story Zevran tells.  I have difficulties believing that someone who is heavily armed and knows all about poison can't simply kill himself in a straight-forward manner, or try and take on the wardens himself, but has to hire a bunch of people to help him kill himself and get killed in the process.

Your opinion is based just as much on the fact that you like and trust Zevran as mine is on the fact that I don't. 

My opinion can be backed up by in-game dialog.  That's what formed my opinion.

As far as Taliesen offering to come along, i take it you haven't seen that dialog (it's not the easiest one to see -- most Zevran fans are surprised by it as well).  See, Zevran and Taliesen were lovers, as close a thing to friends as you can get in their situation, and very much partners in crime, so to speak.

Saying that your opinion is backed by in-game dialog, simply reiterates the fact that you trust him.  There are inconsistencies in his story.  He says he's poor as a churchmouse, but he also talks about the high status the  Crows enjoy in Antiva.  And he tells you he and Taliesen were friends and more, yet he also suggests that Taliesen probably lobbied for the task of bringing him in. 

Maybe you're just more trusting in general than I am.  When I first encountered Zevran and he tells the story of being a slave and so on, the whole time I was wondering is this really true or is it just a sob story to try and gain my sympathy?  I don't believe the life stories any of the romanceable characters tell me completely, not even Alistair.  Well, maybe I believe Morrigan's account of her life, but don't trust her motives.  I don't believe that Alistair slept in the barn with the dogs.  And I'm not sure how much to believe of Leliana's story, certainly not all of it.

[Ryzaki]

Circles, circles we're going in.



The mission would not have most likely meant his death. He was going against two newb grey wardens.



It's like everyone forgets that they were supposed to be weak in the beginning of the game.



And that only would've worked had the Warden been a complete idiot and Morrigan fell asleep. She *needs* them alive. Her own self-interest would see to it that she kept them alive.



Frankly I understand that you get it but saying because he said something it's automatically true even if actions don't support it to me is...eh...I don't know.

[Wulfram]

Ryzaki wrote...

Circles, circles we're going in.

The mission would not have most likely meant his death. He was going against two newb grey wardens.

It's like everyone forgets that they were supposed to be weak in the beginning of the game.

The Warden is supposed to be extremely good from the start.  After all you might have won a proving or slaughtered a palace full of guards in the origin story.

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

Circles, circles we're going in.

The mission would not have most likely meant his death. He was going against two newb grey wardens.

It's like everyone forgets that they were supposed to be weak in the beginning of the game.

And that only would've worked had the Warden been a complete idiot and Morrigan fell asleep. She *needs* them alive. Her own self-interest would see to it that she kept them alive.

Frankly I understand that you get it but saying because he said something it's automatically true even if actions don't support it to me is...eh...I don't know.

Of course morrigan would watch closely.  i'm not saying that it would be successful, but it would be more in in line with the stories he tells for him to use seduction and poison instead of an outright attack. And seeing as that fight isn't very hard, you're warned about it ahead of time (help, help, we're being attacked, save us please), I don't know. 

No other crow would take the mission.  Ignacio scoffs at the idea of it, stating he's not that big a fool.

but the story of his final mission, it shouldn't be dismissed.  It would be like dismissing leliana's story about marjolaine and the betrayal.  It's a major part of his story, and answers many questions about him, including what caused him to break.

[Ryzaki]

But like I said it's not supported by his actions. So for me it rings false and will always ring false.

We're not going to agree on this.

If he tried to poison them and any of the others found him he'd have been killed on the spot. He would've had no advantages save poison and the like and I doubt in a party of Sten and Morrigan they were going to let the assassin handle the food. They *do* have brains despite what that "ambush" would lead one to believe.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:43 .

[Sarah1281]

He says he's poor as a churchmouse, but he also talks about the high status the Crows enjoy in Antiva. And he tells you he and Taliesen were friends and more, yet he also suggests that Taliesen probably lobbied for the task of bringing him in.

I don't see how those are contradictions. Zevran says that the Crows are not permitted money (most likely because then they could escape) but that there are incentives that they are given. Instead of being paid in coin, the Crows arrange for their assassins to be given whatever material object that they want (possibly cutting them off if their tastes get too extravagent). If Taliesin looks at it from the perspective that Zevran will be caught and killed anyway, he could easily volunteer so that he can give Zevran a relatively painless death and not whatever someone else might have in mind for a turncoat. Additionally, we see Taliesin offering Zevran a chance to try and come back which we know no one else would have done for him. Regardless of whether or not it would work (and his 'we'll make up a story' reminds me of what Zevran said he said about Rinna's unnecessary death) he was trying to give Zevran some chance of surviving. That sounds very in line with the notion that they were friends of a sort.

The mission would not have most likely meant his death. He was going against two newb grey wardens.

Why are you assuming that Zevran/Loghain/Howe ANYONE knew that the only two Wardens left were newbies who were supposed to suck? Even if you were new at this, that hardly meant you had to be horrible at it. Game mechanics aside, Loghain is supposed to be a great fighter. If he's recruited into the Wardens, he's a newbie Warden and yet this fact doesn't mean that he'd be easy picking for someone who wanted to take out a Warden.

Edit:

And that only would've worked had the Warden been a complete idiot and Morrigan fell asleep. She *needs* them alive. Her own self-interest would see to it that she kept them alive. 

So Morrigan is supposed to be awake at all hours of the night? I find it more laughable that people can really claim that Zevran would not get a single chance to kill the party in over a year of travelling with them. Everyone slips up occasionally and if Zevran were looking for an opportunity, he at least would have made an attempt.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:45 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

But like I said it's not supported by his actions. So for me it rings false and will always ring false.

We're not going to agree on this.

To you it rings false.  to me, it rings very true, and I have no reason to believe he's lying.  It's one of the few times you actually see him opening up to someone.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:45 .