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[Ryzaki]

So..the HN and Alistair fought in wars (when they met Zevran) and are renowed generals? Really?

Loghain knew your description. He knew who you were. He would've known how skilled the two of you were considered. Even Duncan says you're good. Good =/= great. Which Zevran claims to be.

Plus the most Loghain knows is about you and Alistair and yet Zev brings along a mage (who can probably take one of the Wardens by herself *and* keep Zev healed) a lot of archers, some fighters and lays a trap?


Expected to die? ...No. Just no. It's not even remotely believable.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:48 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

But like I said it's not supported by his actions. So for me it rings false and will always ring false.

We're not going to agree on this.

To you it rings false.  to me, it rings very true, and I have no reason to believe he's lying.  It's one of the few times you actually see him opening up to someone.

Like I said not going to agree. For me it will always ring false because I have no reason to believe he actually was trying to die during that ambush.

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

So..the HN and Alistair fought in wars (when they met Zevran) and are renowed generals? Really?

Logain knew your description. He knew who you were. He would've known how skilled the two of you were considered. Even Duncan says you're good. Good =/= great. Which Zevran claims to be.

What? Who said you have to have to have been a renowned general and fought in a war? You don't have to suck just because you are young. Loghain MIGHT have some intel on Alistair's fighting skills but you show up days before Ostagar and Loghain never gets a chance to hear that much about you. He has no way of knowing how good you are. And whether someone is considered 'good' or 'great' is a matter of perspective. It's not like there is one person who has seen you and Zevran and declares you 'good' while he is 'great.'

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So..the HN and Alistair fought in wars (when they met Zevran) and are renowed generals? Really?

Logain knew your description. He knew who you were. He would've known how skilled the two of you were considered. Even Duncan says you're good. Good =/= great. Which Zevran claims to be.

What? Who said you have to have to have been a renowned general and fought in a war? You don't have to suck just because you are young. Loghain MIGHT have some intel on Alistair's fighting skills but you show up days before Ostagar and Loghain never gets a chance to hear that much about you. He has no way of knowing how good you are. And whether someone is considered 'good' or 'great' is a matter of perspective. It's not like there is one person who has seen you and Zevran and declares you 'good' while he is 'great.'

Depends on origin really. But even if you were well trained just the amount of numbers (and the mage. Yes people mages are ridculous OP) would've told you he didn't plan on doing a suicide run. He laid a trap that backfired. The fact he proposes a deal alone tells you he didn't go there hoping to die.

Ah true. I admit I got a little sick of Zev's bragging and did that. So maybe you're better.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:50 .

[maxernst]

Sarah1281 wrote...

He says he's poor as a churchmouse, but he also talks about the high status the Crows enjoy in Antiva. And he tells you he and Taliesen were friends and more, yet he also suggests that Taliesen probably lobbied for the task of bringing him in.

I don't see how those are contradictions. Zevran says that the Crows are not permitted money (most likely because then they could escape) but that there are incentives that they are given. Instead of being paid in coin, the Crows arrange for their assassins to be given whatever material object that they want (possibly cutting them off if their tastes get too extravagent). If Taliesin looks at it from the perspective that Zevran will be caught and killed anyway, he could easily volunteer so that he can give Zevran a relatively painless death and not whatever someone else might have in mind for a turncoat. Additionally, we see Taliesin offering Zevran a chance to try and come back which we know no one else would have done for him. Regardless of whether or not it would work (and his 'we'll make up a story' reminds me of what Zevran said he said about Rinna's unnecessary death) he was trying to give Zevran some chance of surviving. That sounds very in line with the notion that they were friends of a sort.

The mission would not have most likely meant his death. He was going against two newb grey wardens.

Why are you assuming that Zevran/Loghain/Howe ANYONE knew that the only two Wardens left were newbies who were supposed to suck? Even if you were new at this, that hardly meant you had to be horrible at it. Game mechanics aside, Loghain is supposed to be a great fighter. If he's recruited into the Wardens, he's a newbie Warden and yet this fact doesn't mean that he'd be easy picking for someone who wanted to take out a Warden.

Because they've got posters with your description up in Denerim and Loghain met you at Ostagar, so he knows you're young and relatively inexperienced.  He probably has a pretty good idea of Alistair's fighting skills, since Anora (at least) was apparently keeping tabs on him. 

[ejoslin]

ok, one more thing:

Zevran: You once asked why I wanted to leave the Crows. In truth, what I wanted was to die. What better way than to throw myself at one of the fabled Grey Wardens? (sad0
Zevran: And then... this happened. And here I am. (sad, said with a shrug -- he had wanted to die but fate had a different plan)

Does this mean suicidal? I certainly don't think so. But there's nothing indicating anywhere that he's insincere when he gets to this point. Then again, when he tries to talk the warden into letting him live, he seems to want to live. but he also sees that as his chance to escape the Crows which may be what he wants most of all.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:51 .

[Ryzaki]

...and yet he ambushes them. I'm not buying it. At all. He's sad and all but I don't buy it. He wants to die but proposes a deal and yet when the Warden doesn't become his friend hopes back to the Crows? Even if the Warden has done no harm to him? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:59 .

[ejoslin]

You're assuming he thinks he's going to live if he sides with taliesen. here's what you get if he leaves the fight.

Zevran: You are going to lose, Taliesen. You are going to lose badly. You should have stayed in Antiva.

Actually, his attacking the warden supports the fact he wants to die.

Edit: His leaving the fight is a romance dialog -- if he's romanced but below adore and you don't choose a particular answer, he won't fight on either side. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:03 .

[Ryzaki]

But that's only if he leaves. Does it actually have any notes for the low approval? Because if you actually tell him he's going to die he goes "we'll see about that." So once again. I'm not believing that. Again there was an overwhelming force and (somewhat) of an ambush along with a backstab. So...yes I can see stupidity but not straight up suicide.

And that doesn't stop the whole ambush where he met you from not being suicidal in the least.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:04 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

But that's only if he leaves. Does it actually have any notes for the low approval? Because if you actually tell him he's going to die he goes "we'll see about that." So once again. I'm not believing that. Again there was an overwhelming force and (somewhat) of an ambush along with a backstab. So...yes I can see stupidity but not straight up suicide.

what he says is:

Zevran: I'm glad it was you who came, Taliesen. This makes things... easier. As for you Grey Warden... let us see if the second time is the charm, hm? Laughs

Again, plays in a bit nicely that he was trying to die.

Edit; of course, if he's below warm, you know little about the character.

But again, if he were honestly trying to kill the warden, he would have made an attempt while in the camp at some point you'd think.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:06 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

But that's only if he leaves. Does it actually have any notes for the low approval? Because if you actually tell him he's going to die he goes "we'll see about that." So once again. I'm not believing that. Again there was an overwhelming force and (somewhat) of an ambush along with a backstab. So...yes I can see stupidity but not straight up suicide.

what he says is:

Zevran: I'm glad it was you who came, Taliesen. This makes things... easier. As for you Grey Warden... let us see if the second time is the charm, hm? Laughs

Again, plays in a bit nicely that he was trying to die.

Still...don't buy it. I don't see that as trying to die as much as trying to get free of the Warden (for whatever baffling reason) if he really wanted to die he'd have attacked the Warden before that moment.

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

But that's only if he leaves. Does it actually have any notes for the low approval? Because if you actually tell him he's going to die he goes "we'll see about that." So once again. I'm not believing that. Again there was an overwhelming force and (somewhat) of an ambush along with a backstab. So...yes I can see stupidity but not straight up suicide.

what he says is:

Zevran: I'm glad it was you who came, Taliesen. This makes things... easier. As for you Grey Warden... let us see if the second time is the charm, hm? Laughs

Again, plays in a bit nicely that he was trying to die.

Still...don't buy it. I don't see that as trying to die as much as trying to get free of the Warden (for whatever baffling reason) if he really wanted to die he'd have attacked the Warden before that moment.

And if he really wanted to kill the warden he would have poisoned the warden before that moment as well.  If you ask him about that, if he's using seduction in order to kill your warden, he says this:

Zevran: Do you know there are poisons that I can ingest which would be harmless to me and yet be already killing you as we speak?

Edit; his killing the warden would be a sure way for him to be able to go back to the crows after all.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:08 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

But that's only if he leaves. Does it actually have any notes for the low approval? Because if you actually tell him he's going to die he goes "we'll see about that." So once again. I'm not believing that. Again there was an overwhelming force and (somewhat) of an ambush along with a backstab. So...yes I can see stupidity but not straight up suicide.

what he says is:

Zevran: I'm glad it was you who came, Taliesen. This makes things... easier. As for you Grey Warden... let us see if the second time is the charm, hm? Laughs

Again, plays in a bit nicely that he was trying to die.

Still...don't buy it. I don't see that as trying to die as much as trying to get free of the Warden (for whatever baffling reason) if he really wanted to die he'd have attacked the Warden before that moment.

And if he really wanted to kill the warden he would have poisoned the warden before that moment as well.  If you ask him about that, if he's using seduction in order to kill your warden, he says this:

Zevran: Do you know there are poisons that I can ingest which would be harmless to me and yet be already killing you as we speak?

If you're wardenis dumb enough to sleep with him. Mine wouldn't touch him with a twenty footpole. Also if he thinks he'd get away with that alive (which ironicaly if he was suicidal should've been what he did) he'd be a fool.

[maxernst]

ejoslin wrote...

You're assuming he thinks he's going to live if he sides with taliesen. here's what you get if he leaves the fight.

Zevran: You are going to lose, Taliesen. You are going to lose badly. You should have stayed in Antiva.

Actually, his attacking the warden supports the fact he wants to die.

Edit: His leaving the fight is a romance dialog -- if he's romanced but below adore and you don't choose a particular answer, he won't fight on either side. 

The first time I played that encounter, Zevran joined me and I still managed to lose through gross incompetence.  I'm guessing that it's a pretty tough fight if Zevran turns against you.  I don't see why he would be so sure that Taliesen can't prevail against three with his help. Unless you think Zevran is aware of that magic reload ability that the PC has.

[ejoslin]

maxernst wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

You're assuming he thinks he's going to live if he sides with taliesen. here's what you get if he leaves the fight.

Zevran: You are going to lose, Taliesen. You are going to lose badly. You should have stayed in Antiva.

Actually, his attacking the warden supports the fact he wants to die.

Edit: His leaving the fight is a romance dialog -- if he's romanced but below adore and you don't choose a particular answer, he won't fight on either side. 

The first time I played that encounter, Zevran joined me and I still managed to lose through gross incompetence.  I'm guessing that it's a pretty tough fight if Zevran turns against you.  I don't see why he would be so sure that Taliesen can't prevail against three with his help. Unless you think Zevran is aware of that magic reload ability that the PC has.

I've never lost that fight -- i don't find it difficult.  Again, i'm just going by in-game dialog.

[maxernst]

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

But that's only if he leaves. Does it actually have any notes for the low approval? Because if you actually tell him he's going to die he goes "we'll see about that." So once again. I'm not believing that. Again there was an overwhelming force and (somewhat) of an ambush along with a backstab. So...yes I can see stupidity but not straight up suicide.

what he says is:

Zevran: I'm glad it was you who came, Taliesen. This makes things... easier. As for you Grey Warden... let us see if the second time is the charm, hm? Laughs

Again, plays in a bit nicely that he was trying to die.

Uh, that's not how I would interpret that dialog.  Maybe it means this will be an easier fight because Taliesen is highly skilled?  If he's so fond of Taliesen, don't you find it odd that it makes it easier if he can kill himself in a way that gets Taliesen killed too?  The fact that he refused Taliesen's help before was one of your lines of evidence that he wanted to die--why does he want Taliesen's help now?

Modifié par maxernst, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:19 .

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...

Maybe you're just more trusting in general than I am.  When I first encountered Zevran and he tells the story of being a slave and so on, the whole time I was wondering is this really true or is it just a sob story to try and gain my sympathy?  I don't believe the life stories any of the romanceable characters tell me completely, not even Alistair.  Well, maybe I believe Morrigan's account of her life, but don't trust her motives.  I don't believe that Alistair slept in the barn with the dogs.  And I'm not sure how much to believe of Leliana's story, certainly not all of it.

  Really?  I could understand mistrusting Zevran and Leliana because their backgrounds are basically duplicitous, but Alistair?  I guess you could go off the fact that he hides his parentage, but why would he lie about sleeping with the hounds?  He doesn't say that in the context of a romance dialogue, BTW.

[ejoslin]

maxernst wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

But that's only if he leaves. Does it actually have any notes for the low approval? Because if you actually tell him he's going to die he goes "we'll see about that." So once again. I'm not believing that. Again there was an overwhelming force and (somewhat) of an ambush along with a backstab. So...yes I can see stupidity but not straight up suicide.

what he says is:

Zevran: I'm glad it was you who came, Taliesen. This makes things... easier. As for you Grey Warden... let us see if the second time is the charm, hm? Laughs

Again, plays in a bit nicely that he was trying to die.

Still...don't buy it. I don't see that as trying to die as much as trying to get free of the Warden (for whatever baffling reason) if he really wanted to die he'd have attacked the Warden before that moment.

And if he really wanted to kill the warden he would have poisoned the warden before that moment as well.  If you ask him about that, if he's using seduction in order to kill your warden, he says this:

Zevran: Do you know there are poisons that I can ingest which would be harmless to me and yet be already killing you as we speak?

Edit; his killing the warden would be a sure way for him to be able to go back to the crows after all.

Except that he'd have to get past the rest of the party as well.  And I doubt Alistair's letting him anywhere near the stew.

You're traveling a long time.  He'd get some opportunity.  And probably be the first to dig into the meal.

[Sarah1281]

If you're wardenis dumb enough to sleep with him. Mine wouldn't touch him with a twenty footpole. Also if he thinks he'd get away with that alive (which ironicaly if he was suicidal should've been what he did) he'd be a fool.

Now you're calling those who romance him stupid? Nice.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

If you're wardenis dumb enough to sleep with him. Mine wouldn't touch him with a twenty footpole. Also if he thinks he'd get away with that alive (which ironicaly if he was suicidal should've been what he did) he'd be a fool.

Now you're calling those who romance him stupid? Nice.

Eh. That was a bit untactful.

Also calling an action stupid is a far cry from calling someone stupid. Just FYI I feel the same way as romancing King Alistair yet I do it all the time.

If your warden was crazy enough to sleep with him without him being trustworthy I mean.

Gah. ...I really can't justify any warden sleeping with him unless they trust him. And I find that to be a reach. Not saying others can't do it but...I still find it to be a reach.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:30 .

[ejoslin]

You know, you actually have to get to know Zevran a little bit before you can invite him to your tent -- by that time, hopefully you will have gotten to trust him a bit. His approval has to be quite high for him to do the asking.

I think it's stupid to sleep with a stranger no matter what, but at that point, he should not be a stranger.

Again, this falls under personal tastes. i do get why people kill him straight off. I do get why people kill him. But his romance is well done, and both ugly and beautiful at various points.

Edit: by the time my wardens sleep with him, they trust him.  It's not like you can meet him and invite him to the tent.  And it's not like he requires the tent for the romance (he doesn't).

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:21 .

[Ryzaki]

True that. I guess not. I don't know though I can't raise his approval without metagaming either.



And yes...it does fall under personal tastes.

[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Maybe you're just more trusting in general than I am.  When I first encountered Zevran and he tells the story of being a slave and so on, the whole time I was wondering is this really true or is it just a sob story to try and gain my sympathy?  I don't believe the life stories any of the romanceable characters tell me completely, not even Alistair.  Well, maybe I believe Morrigan's account of her life, but don't trust her motives.  I don't believe that Alistair slept in the barn with the dogs.  And I'm not sure how much to believe of Leliana's story, certainly not all of it.

  Really?  I could understand mistrusting Zevran and Leliana because their backgrounds are basically duplicitous, but Alistair?  I guess you could go off the fact that he hides his parentage, but why would he lie about sleeping with the hounds?  He doesn't say that in the context of a romance dialogue, BTW.

I think i'ts an exaggeration to emphasize that he wasn't raised as the Arl's son.  Being sent to become a Templar seems like too big a jump in social class from sleeping in the stables. If I'm Isolde, I'm thinking that he's being sent there so that he won't be a threat to any children she might have--it's the classic "second son" fate, after all.  He could have been apprenticed to the village blacksmith or washed dishes at the inn or something instead.  Like I said, maybe I'm just very suspicious.

Modifié par maxernst, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:28 .

[ejoslin]

maxernst wrote...

Uh, that's not how I would interpret that dialog.  Maybe it means this will be an easier fight because Taliesen is highly skilled?  If he's so fond of Taliesen, don't you find it odd that it makes it easier if he can kill himself in a way that gets Taliesen killed too?  The fact that he refused Taliesen's help before was one of your lines of evidence that he wanted to die--why does he want Taliesen's help now?

I am not saying that is the only way to interpret it.  What i AM saying is this dialog does not necessarily contradict him saying he wanted to die.  

And he has reasons to want Taliesen dead as well.  After all, Taliesen was the one who both told him that the woman he thought he loved had to die, and he was the one to slit her throat.  I think there would be very mixed feelings there.

Edit; though in later dialogs, IF you get them, he doesn't seem to blame Taliesen.  But it may be more that he takes full responsibility for what happened to her since he didn't stop it.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:39 .

[maxernst]

ejoslin wrote...

And he has reasons to want Taliesen dead as well.  After all, Taliesen was the one who both told him that the woman he thought he loved had to die, and he was the one to slit her throat.

But this goes back to...if the initial attack was a suicide mission and he wants Taliesen dead, why did he refuse Taliesen's help?  And if he wants Taliesen dead and believes the Warden will win, why not help the Warden kill him, whether he likes the Wardens or not?

Modifié par maxernst, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:41 .