498 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

maxernst wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

And he has reasons to want Taliesen dead as well.  After all, Taliesen was the one who both told him that the woman he thought he loved had to die, and he was the one to slit her throat.

But this goes back to...if the initial attack was a suicide mission and he wants Taliesen dead, why did he refuse Taliesen's help?  And if he wants Taliesen dead and believes the Warden will win, why not help the Warden kill him, whether he likes the Wardens or not?

I am not the one throwing around the term 'suicide mission" -- I am acknowledging that no other crow would take the mission and he fully expected to die.  He doesn't seem to blame Taliesen for what he did, and in fact does not want to be the one who kills him if in a romance with the warden if the approval is lower (though he has no problems just killing Taliesen with a friendwarden -- it's a romance situation, old lover against new lover).

Does the story make perfect sense as it's told?  It makes sense I think, but some of the details, like all the other stories, are lacking a bit.  The framework is laid out, from a desperate assassin who thinks he's a monster, to gradually getting to know him, to finally finding out what exactly was going on with him once he trusts the warden.

It's easy to pick apart stories, even true ones, if you go for the little details.  But as Zevran is written, he is not hopeless, evil, unredeemable, and in fact has a kind heart despite everything (which he ironically considers a weakness).

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...
I think i'ts an exaggeration to emphasize that he wasn't raised as the Arl's son.  Being sent to become a Templar seems like too big a jump in social class from sleeping in the stables. If I'm Isolde, I'm thinking that he's being sent there so that he won't be a threat to any children she might have--it's the classic "second son" fate, after all.  He could have been apprenticed to the village blacksmith or washed dishes at the inn or something instead.  Like I said, maybe I'm just very suspicious.

He's relating a memory that triggers when he sees Arl Eamon's estate.  Why would he exaggerate there?  Here's a clip, BTW.  Keeping in mind that mabari in Ferelden are treated pretty well and actually live inside the estate.  I interpret it to mean that he had to sleep in the servants' quarters and do work since he wasn't a family member.

As far as Zevran goes, I interpret what he tells you in light of his turmoil.  He's a survivor, so saying he wants to die means he's at rock bottom and could care less whether he lives or dies.  If he dies, he dies.  If he succeeds, he goes back to Antiva and buys his boots.  It's not like he expects to have a long life anyway (no matter what the fortune teller says).  People can be conflicted, this doesn't mean they're lying.

[ejoslin]

Thank you Addai67, for putting that so well.

[EccentricSage]

condensing, sorry about this.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 18 novembre 2010 - 09:18 .

[EccentricSage]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Shhh Sarah Shhh....
Let the troll, troll and let it go.

No point in arguing with trolls since it never does anything really.

I
am not a troll.  I have every right to see a character differently than
another person sees the character.  If someone dissagrees with me, I'm
glad to discuss it, and to try to be open minded, so long as they aren't
taking everything personaly.  I'll respond to Sarah later, as I don't
have time for it now, and I think she's getting seriously mad at me
judging by the tone of her posts, and I want to handle that the right
way.  (I have nothing against you, Sarah!)

My discussions with
others on these forums have been fair, have they not?  I've conceded
points and admitted when I was wrong or over reacting.  Trolls just TRY
to ****** people off.  No other reason for what they do.  But it's not
really my fault if people take the fact I see a character differently so
personaly.  These are JUST CHARACTERS, we are here for the purpose of
discussing them.  It is not such serious business.


Ryzaki,
You make some good points from a perspective so different from my own that I never would have noticed these things.  I have a lot more to say, as well as defending the suicide atempt... since neither of us can finish what we started in the other thread now.  XD  (and in case you didn't see the post in that thread, I did say I was wrong for geting personal.  That thread was getting too heated, I think.  Sorry about that)

Anywho... I will reply at length... tomorow or the day after (not enough computer time till then)... just thought I should say something so that people don't think I'm being an ass and playing games... dissapearing untill many pages later and then bringing back up an old argument.  I know people get touchy about that sometimes.

It is going to be a pain, getting caught up on threads.  But I think this is one of the more interesting threads right now.  Good discussion, even if people do get anoyed at me here.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 18 novembre 2010 - 09:18 .

[Zjarcal]

Sarah1281 wrote...

For the love of God, she does NOT revert so easily! Until we see any evidence at all that she is back to being a bard or seducing and killing people then you cannot say that she reverted! She does, in banters, defend her actions along the lines of 'I could have done worse' but in case you didn't notice, Zevran also defends some of HIS more questionable actions. "Hey, at least I was willing to grant her request to sleep with me so as to try to convince me to spare her life. Which I didn't" comes to mind. You really seem to have a double standard here because you like Zevran and dislike Leliana. Her being more open about her past actions does not mean she will do them in the future. You telling her that she shouldn't be ashamed of who she is (in the context of the 'I wanted to kill Marjolaine because she's an evil **** who ruined my life and never would have stopped hunting me so I must be a bad person' and 'I have to admit, I get an adrenaline rush from the thrill of the hunt and that makes me a bad person') does not instantly turn her into a bard again.

I agree with every single word here.

I have been staying out of this thread because I find it pointless to debate a character with someone who clearly HATES that character (kind of like how I hate Wynne) and holds a double standard when comparing her to other characters.

Nothing wrong with hating a character, we all have a right to it. And I actually support keeping all the hate for a character in one thread, it keeps it out of the thread I care about. Having the hate there would be annoying.

But when said person has such clear double standards about different characters, it's kind of pointless to argue. And it also makes me a bit uncomfortable since I love both Leli and Zev, so I hate how this is turning into a "Why Leli is a b!tch and Zevran is great!" thread. Although I really don't know what the hell this thread is about anymore, as there also seems to be some Alistair discussion going around.

Also, for the record, I disagree with Giggles in calling EccentricSage a troll. If he was posting this stuff in the Leli thread, that would be trolling (and even then it wouldn't really be trolling, assuming someone asked "do you think Leliana is crazy" question in the Leli thread). This is really just a matter of different opinions (albeit, VERY different opinions).

[Ryzaki]

This. I shouldn't debate Zev to be honest because...I don't like him and I never will and it's hard for me to see anything redeeming about the guy. So don't bother with the wall of text EccentricSage. I see your reasoning and although I don't agree with it I really can't argue against it impartially. My personal experience getting in the way I think. And thanks for the apology.  I apologize if I insulted you as well.

So...this is where I bow out folks! Have at it. It's fun to watch.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 novembre 2010 - 09:35 .

[Wulfram]

Is Leliana's desire for a close loving relationship with authority figures - Marjolaine, the Warden, The Maker - related to her being orphanned at an early age?

Modifié par Wulfram, 18 novembre 2010 - 09:42 .

[Sarah1281]

I'll respond to Sarah later, as I don't

have time for it now, and I think she's getting seriously mad at me

judging by the tone of her posts, and I want to handle that the right

way. (I have nothing against you, Sarah!)

You know how some opinions just really get to you? Like whenever someone calls Zevran a rapist? I've seen plenty of hardening debates about Leliana and a very popular reason for not hardening her is not wanting to turn her back into a bard. People say, all the time, that they just can't turn Leliana into Marjolaine. Since I see literally no evidence of this at all and quite a bit against this, the 'hardening Leliana turns her into Marjolaine' opinion (often stated as a fact) is one of those opinions for me and so I tend to react strongly when I see it.

[Ryzaki]

Huh? Zevran raped someone? Where?

I mean there's that part where the mage got on her knees and begged him not to kill her...

Ew.

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

Huh? Zevran raped someone? Where?

I mean there's that part where the mage got on her knees and begged him not to kill her...

Ew.

He didn't and the devs have, in the past, stepped in and confirmed that he didn't. Just the same, his tendency to agree to have sex with people who offer to try and get him to spare their lives/kill him during the act led to some people deciding that he was, in fact, a rapist.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Huh? Zevran raped someone? Where?

I mean there's that part where the mage got on her knees and begged him not to kill her...

Ew.

He didn't and the devs have, in the past, stepped in and confirmed that he didn't. Just the same, his tendency to agree to have sex with people who offer to try and get him to spare their lives/kill him during the act led to some people deciding that he was, in fact, a rapist.

That is pretty damn grey. And I can see why some would consider that rape. Personally I wouldn't but I'm big on personal choice. That said...ew. Out with a bang? *shudders* 

...Urgh.  Darn you Sarah for bringing that up right when I was going to redo my canon male Waden who romanced Zev...I think I'll make him single now.

Do you have a link to the thread? Because...I really want to read the whole thing.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 novembre 2010 - 10:38 .

[ejoslin]

Oh dear lord, and here it goes again.

Modifié par ejoslin, 18 novembre 2010 - 10:52 .

[Sarah1281]

I don't, sorry. It might have been in the original Zev thread but that's kind of huge and I don't know where in it it was.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't, sorry. It might have been in the original Zev thread but that's kind of huge and I don't know where in it it was.

Ah...you don't happen to recall the title do you? Maybe if I'm lucky I can search it *scampers off in search*

[Zjarcal]

That thread is linked in the first second post of the current Zev thread.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 18 novembre 2010 - 10:49 .

[Ryzaki]

Zjarcal wrote...

That thread is linked in the first second post of the current Zev thread.

Nah that's not the one I'm looking for. There's no dev posts in it according to the search.

Or does Search not take Dev posts into account?

And it doesn't matter if she was innocent or not. The fact remains that it's still morally grey. And I don't buy the culture excuse because in that matter what happened to Zev as a child wasn't wrong because it too is a part of Antivian culture.

I need to see the whole thread for myself before I judge. I remember a thread like that where Gaider said it wasn't but someone else brought up the point that it was very very grey and difficult to tell one way or another.

Gah. I wish I rememberedI was curious and read it and didn't remember it til just now.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 novembre 2010 - 10:58 .

[ejoslin]

This subject has come up before, and I dont' have links. it came up in the old Zev thread, and it came up in a couple of other discussions. David Gaider, the person who wrote it, said that it was not rape. The story IS horrible, and yeh, Zevran did something horrible there, but...

Anyway, here's my take on it. this is not a situation where there's an innocent (or not so innocent even) woman who was accosted and told, "I'll let you live if you have sex with me," and then got murdered anyway.

This is Antiva. Antivan politics often involve murder -- you hear about this several places. The mage... she was dead. no matter what, she meddled in politics, a contract was taken out on her. No matter who was sent to kill her, she was already dead; the fact that her heart was still beating was just a technicality. And she knew this. Her chance of survival was to try to manipulate her assassin. which she did, successfully. he didn't murder her, and in fact, had things gone as she planned, he would have been the one killed. And she got to live until the next assassin caught up with her. But still, she was playing the game as well, and would attempt it with her next assassin as well.

Now, does it make him a better or worse person, that he would have sex with someone before murdering them? No, of course not. He was a murderer.

Even Leliana describes the game of seduction and death that is played in their world.

Edit; the old Zev thread does not have David Gaider saying it's not.  the was a whole different thread.

Second edit: The old ZevThread does have dev links, but not about that topic.  Not sure why they didn't show up for you.

Third edit; there are many abhorrant things talked about in DA2.  Antiva and the Antivan crows, Orlesean bards, two huge, well known orders, dedicated to murder (Crows), and murder, torture, spying, etc.

Were the men who were seduced and then murdered raped i wonder...

Modifié par ejoslin, 18 novembre 2010 - 10:57 .

[Zjarcal]

Ryzaki wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

That thread is linked in the first second post of the current Zev thread.

Nah that's not the one I'm looking for. There's no dev posts in it according to the search.

Or does Search not take Dev posts into account?

And it doesn't matter if she was innocent or not. The fact remains that it's still morally grey.

Yes there are (it had the "Bioware" tag). And how does one filter the dev posts in threads by the way?

[Ryzaki]

Zjarcal wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

That thread is linked in the first second post of the current Zev thread.

Nah that's not the one I'm looking for. There's no dev posts in it according to the search.

Or does Search not take Dev posts into account?

And it doesn't matter if she was innocent or not. The fact remains that it's still morally grey.

Yes there are (it had the "Bioware" tag). And how does one filter the dev posts in threads by the way?

You click on the BioWare logo underneath.

I guess the search doesn't give dev posts then? I just want to read the dev posts. That thread is too big fo me to read page by page.

[ejoslin]

You won't find what you're looking for in the Zevthread. It's not there.

[ok go]

leliana shows no regret seducing men, only killing she shows regret

[Zjarcal]

Ryzaki wrote...
You click on the BioWare logo underneath.

You learn something new everyday. Thanks! 

[Sarah1281]

ok go wrote...

leliana shows no regret seducing men, only killing she shows regret

And why should she show regret for having consensual sex with people? It's the other things she does that she regrets.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

You won't find what you're looking for in the Zevthread. It's not there.

Gah. So the hunt begins.

I will find it though. I will.