498 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

ok go wrote...

leliana shows no regret seducing men, only killing she shows regret

And why should she show regret for having consensual sex with people? It's the other things she does that she regrets.

This. From what she tells they didn't know their lives were in danger until afterwards. That's a far cry from sleeping with someone who knows you're trying to kill them.

[ejoslin]

Good luck! It is out there. I think it got 12 or 13 pages before it was locked.

[ejoslin]

And it's off. joy.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

ok go wrote...

leliana shows no regret seducing men, only killing she shows regret

And why should she show regret for having consensual sex with people? It's the other things she does that she regrets.

This. From what she tells they didn't know their lives were in danger until afterwards. That's a far cry from sleeping with someone who knows you're trying to kill them.

Does she show regret? I just remember her saying she didn't enjoy it, which isn't necessarily the same thing.

[Zjarcal]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Does she show regret? I just remember her saying she didn't enjoy it, which isn't necessarily the same thing.

During one banter with Morrigan she says "at least, I regretted the evil I had done". That banter comes after Leliana's past is revealed, so yeah, I would say she shows regret.

The one thing I don't like about Leliana is when she says that "playing with people" as part of the game was better than outright torturing them. I always choose the "at least violence is honest" line because I'd really prefer to be beaten up than to be played. Probably the only time when I strongly disagree with her.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 18 novembre 2010 - 11:43 .

[Ryzaki]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

ok go wrote...

leliana shows no regret seducing men, only killing she shows regret

And why should she show regret for having consensual sex with people? It's the other things she does that she regrets.

This. From what she tells they didn't know their lives were in danger until afterwards. That's a far cry from sleeping with someone who knows you're trying to kill them.

Does she show regret? I just remember her saying she didn't enjoy it, which isn't necessarily the same thing.

Nah like the poster above me said she said she regretted the evil she done. Which I'm guess is the killing. She didn't consider manipulating them evil and neither do I actually.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Good luck! It is out there. I think it got 12 or 13 pages before it was locked.

14 actually and I did find it. (It wasfaaaar back.)

Quite interesting including Gaider's comments but even with his justifications it's fimly in the grey terrority. It may have not been rape but I can't consider it fully consensual either.

[ejoslin]

It's a different world than ours. i'd say assassinating is not very well accepted in these days either.



fwiw, translated into a world other than the one described there, I agree. but with the way things are portrayed there, and with really, people who are assassination targets knowing that they're dead, it's not quite as horrific as it is if it were happening in our world.

[Ryzaki]

And I have to disagree. Duress is duress.

The cultural excuse can only strech so far and this is to me where it breaks.

If even a smidge of her thoughts were not on having sex for pleasure but to get away from the man trying to kill her it wasn't completly consensual sex.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 01:17 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Ah, thanks. Been a little while since I've heard that convo, apparently. XD



@Zjarcal - Interesting perspective! Leliana is a bard though--makes sense she'd prefer the word games and deceptions and the 'game'. And I don't know...interrogation and torture to make you reveal info, or having it tricked out of you and being made a fool of? Physical vs psychological warfare.... both leave a different kind of scar, I guess. :/

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

And I have to disagree. Duress is duress.

i'm not sure this is duress in the context of the world itself.  she knows she is dead, and she knows convincing one assassin to not kill her does not actually spare her life. 

that said, i do think it's a horrible story and a horrible world.

[Sarah1281]

I can understand Leliana's perspective on the whole 'Game', I think. All the nobles in Orlais are well-aware that the minstrel they invite into their court could be a bard...and yet they think it's exciting and so they do it anyway! If they're going to tempt fate like that and open themselves up to playing with the potential bards then it's a form of consent to the whole thing. They plan on winning, of course, but if they don't then they're not innocent victims in it. Of course, I don't get WHY the Orlesian nobles are such dumbasses that they'd willingly invite a potential bard into their court but apparently they've got nothing better to do to entertain themselves.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And I have to disagree. Duress is duress.

i'm not sure this is duress in the context of the world itself.  she knows she is dead, and she knows convincing one assassin to not kill her does not actually spare her life. 

that said, i do think it's a horrible story and a horrible world.

And like I said Duress is duress.

We're not going to agree. I'm reading your posts in the old thread and disagree with you there as well.

So let's just leave it as you don't see it as such and I do.

That said the whole thing leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. Talk about unfortunate implications.

I end up agreeing with this post:

 

kyro wrote...

However, I said a few times that I believed him to be ignorant of what
he did--and therein laid its justifiability (is that a word?)  I even
used the exact wording of naivette in one of the pages closer to this
one.

Saying he raped a woman out of naivette of the repurcussions
of his actions/her feelings is a far cry from saying he was being a
sadistic monster, and I always meant the former.  How else could I have
claimed to like him so many times?

Well without the liking bit of course.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 01:27 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

And I have to disagree. Duress is duress.

The cultural excuse can only strech so far and this is to me where it breaks.

If even a smidge of her thoughts were not on having sex for pleasure but to get away from the man trying to kill her it wasn't completly consensual sex.

hmmmm, people have sex for many reasons other than pleasure and that doesn't make it non-consensual.  People have sex for money, power, security, jobs...  In Antiva, it seems as if it could almost be a game.  you know you're going to die no matter what, so you try to outwit your assassin.  

Though in this world, i agree completely, it would be rape. 

edit; but i do agree to disagree with you.

second edit: I think the major point that was being made was that he was going to kill her, whether he had sex with her or not, and she knew that.  that she was able to convince him to not kill her was most likely a surprise.

but you've read all that.

My question, though, why not make a Zevran hate thread and be done with it?  I'd stay away from that!

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 novembre 2010 - 01:31 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And I have to disagree. Duress is duress.

The cultural excuse can only strech so far and this is to me where it breaks.

If even a smidge of her thoughts were not on having sex for pleasure but to get away from the man trying to kill her it wasn't completly consensual sex.

hmmmm, people have sex for many reasons other than pleasure and that doesn't make it non-consensual.  People have sex for money, power, security, jobs...  In Antiva, it seems as if it could almost be a game.  you know you're going to die no matter what, so you try to outwit your assassin.  

Though in this world, i agree completely, it would be rape. 

edit; but i do agree to disagree with you.

Yeah I don't buy the "it's Antiva!" excuse. So yes let's agree to disagree.

The fact that she didn't offer to sleep with him until she knew she was going to die in my mind makes it extremely close to rape the only thing that makes it not so is that Zevran probably didn't realize what he was doing.

Edit: About a Zevran hate thread. Disliking Zevran doesn' mean I want to make a thread on him.
And when did I say I "hated" him? I always said he repulsed me and I found him creepy.

Besides hate threads for the most part are childish. Far better to discuss the good and bad points of a character.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 01:33 .

[ejoslin]

*sigh* that only works when people actually do want to discuss the good and bad about a character. And it's even better when it's not in a subject that is supposed to be about someone else.

this particular one has been discussed to death and it's very inflammatory. discussing something in an appropriately titled thread is just a better idea.

edit; and for what it's worth, saying you 'love' or 'hate' a character is generally hyperbole. I don't think i have ever loved or hated a character in a videogame, so when i say a 'hate' thread i don't mean the participants actually hate the character.  i think it's more where people can't talk about what they dont' like about a particular character.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 novembre 2010 - 01:40 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

*sigh* that only works when people actually do want to discuss the good and bad about a character. And it's even better when it's not in a subject that is supposed to be about someone else.

this particular one has been discussed to death and it's very inflammatory. discussing something in an appropriately titled thread is just a better idea.

Ah true best to have this in a Zevran centric thread. We sort of hijacked the Leliana thread didn't we? Also odd how it's a-okay to discuss Zevran until something like this that can't be really justified comes up. 

On topic:

Suffice to say Leliana isn't crazy just very manipulative and cute. <3

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 01:40 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

*sigh* that only works when people actually do want to discuss the good and bad about a character. And it's even better when it's not in a subject that is supposed to be about someone else.

this particular one has been discussed to death and it's very inflammatory. discussing something in an appropriately titled thread is just a better idea.

Ah true best to have this in a Zevran centric thread. We sort of hijacked the Leliana thread didn't we? Also odd how it's a-okay to discuss this until something like this that can't be really justified comes up. 

Suffice to say Leliana isn't crazy just very manipulative and cute. <3

and seriously bugged!  you should see how her romance goes when she's fixed and her right dialog is going to the right people.  SO much better.

[Ryzaki]

...Your fixes come with the non-bugged dialogue right? I installed it for this playthrough and will probably have Aedan romance her.

[ejoslin]

Yes, leliana is fixed. not all the fixes are quite what people would like i think (especially males) but i believe she works as was intended according to script notes and such.

Edit; though i do recommend using dialog tweaks as well or at least not raising her approval crazy high with gifts until you get her personal quest.  I do need to get one more version of her out with that last bug fixed.  i never romance her so I never paid much attention to that.

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 novembre 2010 - 01:49 .

[Ryzaki]

Good good. I'll probably romance her with a female as well.



I'll probably romance her right after Alistair dumps my HFN. XD

[Zjarcal]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Good luck! It is out there. I think it got 12 or 13 pages before it was locked.

14 actually and I did find it. (It wasfaaaar back.)

Quite interesting including Gaider's comments but even with his justifications it's fimly in the grey terrority. It may have not been rape but I can't consider it fully consensual either.

Can you link it?

@Shadow of Light Dragon 

You're right, being a former bard it's only natural for her to say that. But really, not that I would relish it, I'd prefer physical pain over being played.

I mean, hypothetical situation, let's say that Leliana had been sent by Loghain to spy on the Warden and you get to romance her and "fall in love" and then at the Landsmeet she turns on you, telling you how this was her plan all along. Honestly, no amount of physical pain could compare to that.

Granted, that's kind of an extreme scenario. I doubt any of her targets ever fell in love with her since I don't think her affairs ever lasted long (it was probably just a quickie and then move on), but I guess that explains my point about physical pain vs psychological and emotional pain.

Thank the maker that wasn't the case!

[Ryzaki]

For Zjarcal: Justifying Zevran

Yeah I always thought her conquests were quickies too. Wham bam whoops you're dead.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 01:55 .

[Zjarcal]

Ryzaki wrote...
Suffice to say Leliana isn't crazy just very manipulative and cute. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/heart.png[/smilie] 

YES!! <3<3<3

And thanks for the link. 

ejoslin wrote...

and seriously bugged!  you should see how her romance goes when she's fixed and her right dialog is going to the right people.  SO much better.

And I thank you (along with all modders) for fixing her romance. SOO much better indeed!

Also, for some reason I doubt that you would stay completely out of a Zev hate thread. :innocent:

Modifié par Zjarcal, 19 novembre 2010 - 01:59 .