498 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

I've stayed out of the before! they die quickly because there's only so many ways you can say, "sleazy elf betrayed me!" 'well, i slit his throat before he could kill ME.' "dammit! how did i end up in the tent with him?"



usually two pages max.

[Sarah1281]

I've seen posts claiming Zevran forced himself on the Warden because they were incapable of understanding what a special massage Zevran learned in a ****house implied.

[ejoslin]

Especially the part where he asks if it can go beyond a massage!

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I've seen posts claiming Zevran forced himself on the Warden because they were incapable of understanding what a special massage Zevran learned in a ****house implied.

Seriously? 

Wow. Talk about dense.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Zjarcal wrote...

@Shadow of Light Dragon 

You're right, being a former bard it's only natural for her to say that. But really, not that I would relish it, I'd prefer physical pain over being played.

I mean, hypothetical situation, let's say that Leliana had been sent by Loghain to spy on the Warden and you get to romance her and "fall in love" and then at the Landsmeet she turns on you, telling you how this was her plan all along. Honestly, no amount of physical pain could compare to that.

Granted, that's kind of an extreme scenario. I doubt any of her targets ever fell in love with her since I don't think her affairs ever lasted long (it was probably just a quickie and then move on), but I guess that explains my point about physical pain vs psychological and emotional pain.

Thank the maker that wasn't the case!

I just remembered that Leliana has been in both situations, according to her. She was majorly played by Marjolaine, whom she loved, and she was tortured by the Orlesians when Marjolaine set her up. So she knows what both feel like, having the proverbial heart torn out, and being physically abused--and she never goes into specifics on how they mistreated her, only that they 'did terrible things'. Considering the rights of chevaliers and that she was being accused of treason, she could conceivable have been raped :/

So maybe it's *not* just a bard thing that she says to have preferred the game, but personal experience she's drawing from. She's obviously experienced both sides of the coin (provided you believe her story)...

[Zjarcal]

@Shadow of Light Dragon:



Damn, I hadn't thought of that! Now I'm kind of depressed. Poor Leli...



And I do believe her story, at least the "Marjolaine betrayed me and I was tortured part". The rest may be up in the air but it doesn't much of a difference anyway.



Truth to be told, both are horrible situations. I suppose it depends on the person, which of them would traumatize them the most.

[Ryzaki]

And I feel that's she's all the stronger for not letting it drive her crazy. Sure she's fanciful but she's not a boiling ball of rage.

[Sarah1281]

Leliana's Song is just a story that Leliana told about what happened to her. She admits in the DLC that she changes the details every time she tells it and she hasn't 'decided upon an ending' yet. The fact that the DLC took place in Ferelden is no reason to believe that Leliana's capture took place there and given that she claims it's Orlais when she's just giving you the facts and not trying to entertain anybody I'm more inclined to believe otherwise. If Leliana was raped, it doesn't have to have been by chevaliers. They are not the only rapists in Thedas as Vaughan and his men can attest to. If the events of Leliana's Song are accurate then whoever was holding her prisoner or his men could have raped her. And just because Sketch's hands weren't cut off doesn't mean that she wasn't there for quite some time. Tug appeared to be tortured to death and who knows how many weeks that was spread across. Every time they tried to focus on Sketch, Tug kept distracting them and so he wasn't in real danger until Tug finally died.

[Sarah1281]

Who said she waited? Maybe it took that long to get access or to realize where they were.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The Water God wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Leliana's Song is just a story that Leliana told about what happened to her. She admits in the DLC that she changes the details every time she tells it and she hasn't 'decided upon an ending' yet. The fact that the DLC took place in Ferelden is no reason to believe that Leliana's capture took place there and given that she claims it's Orlais when she's just giving you the facts and not trying to entertain anybody I'm more inclined to believe otherwise. If Leliana was raped, it doesn't have to have been by chevaliers. They are not the only rapists in Thedas as Vaughan and his men can attest to. If the events of Leliana's Song are accurate then whoever was holding her prisoner or his men could have raped her. And just because Sketch's hands weren't cut off doesn't mean that she wasn't there for quite some time. Tug appeared to be tortured to death and who knows how many weeks that was spread across. Every time they tried to focus on Sketch, Tug kept distracting them and so he wasn't in real danger until Tug finally died.

Its not just that but she also tells the one dude (forgot his name) what she would've had to look foward to had she been in there longer, right after they meet back up in the chantry.
 
Also the I doubt the chantry priest would wait like 4 months to retrieve miltary documents that have the potential to lauch a war.

I'm completely in the camp that the LS DLC is not an accurate portrayal, and I wouldn't blame Leliana if things were glossed over or left out for personal reasons. I mean, who wants to discuss the methods they were tortured? Or raped? Seriously? Shianni from the CE origin hides it. Zevran was tortured as part of his Crow training, but even if you see his Fade dream in the Broken Circle quest he tells the PC such things never happened to him (while the editor notes in the toolset flat-out say he's lying about not being tortured).

[EccentricSage]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yeah I don't buy the "it's Antiva!" excuse. So yes let's agree to disagree.

The fact that she didn't offer to sleep with him until she knew she was going to die in my mind makes it extremely close to rape the only thing that makes it not so is that Zevran probably didn't realize what he was doing.

Edit: About a Zevran hate thread. Disliking Zevran doesn' mean I want to make a thread on him.
And when did I say I "hated" him? I always said he repulsed me and I found him creepy.

Besides hate threads for the most part are childish. Far better to discuss the good and bad points of a character.

I completely understand that in our world by modern law, it would be rape... but Antiva is seriously ****ed up, as is Zevran's whole perspective when he's a Crow, and I think, when all involved are desperate and in dures, including the one commiting the act, it adds to the muddying of the water.  I think in a situation like Zevran's, even under modern law, he'd be excused on the basis of his sircumstances (kill or be killed) and the mental and emotional damage thats been done to him by the orgonization he is slave to.  Like in times of war in our real world.  I doubt that Antivans even think about concepts like coersion being rape, or age limits, considering the things we hear about Antiva, and how Zevran was treated from an early age, and how normalized it seems to be from the way he talks about it.  It is all creepy and ****ed up, but that's part of what makes the character compelling and realistic.

I completely agree with you about discussing the characters.  I'd rather come to understand other people's perspective and gain new apreciation of the characters than just shout my own likes and dislikes over and over like a recording. 

As for your mention of maybe re-playing a Zevran romance... first of all, did you have the mod that fixes his bugged dialogues first time around?  If not, it might be worth while even though he makes you uncomfortable.  I intend to give romancing Lelliana more exploration once I install the mod to fix her bugs.  I've gotten the impression in our debate that there is a lot of Zevran dialogue you've missed out on, especially reguarding his true feelings.  There are dialogue options where he talks about his point of view more, and hints at remorse, to an extent.  It's hard to piece together, though, but that's part of the character... He only just begins to open up to you in the game.  It's hard for him to take the proud remorseless killer mask off, as he's been conditioned most of his life that if he takes that mask off, he will surely be punished, or killed.

*edit* Will get caught up on the rest of this thread later. 

Modifié par EccentricSage, 20 novembre 2010 - 07:25 .

[Ryzaki]

^Nah I'm the type to reload and I'm a huge slash fangirl so I milked the m/m romance for all it was worth.

I tried to force myself to like Zevran I really did. But he just felt...urgh. I was fine with him at first but the second he started talking I just kept getting more creeped out and irritated as he went along. I think I would've liked him more had he been a cruel manipulative bastard and made no apologizes for it instead of being a different kind of woobie.
 
ANd yes I did the proposal and such. Cute but by then it was a too little too late kind of deal.

I said I'm not buying the Antiva excuse because there countries where similar things occur now. Should I just say "well it's X"? Something being common doesn't make it any less hurtful as slavery (of one of many things) could attest to. If you're constntly treated as it so much that you've grown used to it that doesn't mean you're not stil being treated like dirt or that it somehow no longer hurts you.

So that borderline rape (and the only reason I consider it borderline is Zev's ignorance of what he was doing) is another damning mark to him for me. It's raw and realistic...so is Vaughn taking the elven bride to rape doesn't mean I have to feel for the character or not condemn the act.

Edit: Yes I have the fixes I dislike bugs very strongly. Particular the Ali being king even whn he's not bug. <_<

Also: Poor Leliana:crying: I see why she wouldn't mention it. Who wants to remember stuff like that? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 novembre 2010 - 07:48 .

[Sarah1281]

The LS DLC is an actual potrayl of Lelianas story. Not just some story she tells the warden at camp with no visuals whatsoever.

Whether one of them is made up or not. Bioware intended for us to see the DLC as it was shown. Thus it is the most canon unless Bioware were to tell us otherwise.

Where did you get that idea? She tells you at the beginning of the game that this is just a story that she is telling and that she hasn't decided upon the ending. I think she also mentioned something about other details changing. At the end she also reiterates that this happened some time ago and she's just telling you this as a story. It could be accurate and it could not be but I don't think framing the DLC as a story present/future Leliana is telling about her past points to Bioware wanting us to believe that this is exactly what ended up happening.
 
Edit: And about the visuals...in real life when you tell stories there are no visuals involved. In Dragon Age when stories are told there are usually no visuals involved but the stories are also too short to really bother. Leliana's Song is long enough that if she were telling it to you then visuals would be justified. The fact visuals are used proves nothing. Haven't you ever seen stories told in a movie or tv show that used visuals? I saw HP7 yesterday. When Hermione was reading the story of the Three Brothers, they had visuals acting the story out. That doesn't mean that the fairy tale actually happened exactly the way it was written down, by any means. If Leliana was changing part of the story (like the location) then it would still have visuals because otherwise it wouldn't be a playable DLC.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 20 novembre 2010 - 07:40 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

^Nah I'm the type to reload and I'm a huge slash fangirl so I milked the m/m romance for all it was worth.

I tried to force myself to like Zevran I really did. But he just felt...urgh. I was fine with him at first but the second he started talking I just kept getting more creeped out and irritated as he went along. I think I would've liked him more had he been a cruel manipulative bastard and made no apologizes for it instead of being a different kind of woobie.
 
ANd yes I did the proposal and such. Cute but by then it was a too little too late kind of deal.

I said I'm not buying the Antiva excuse because there countries where similar things occur now. Should I just say "well it's X"? Something being common doesn't make it any less hurtful as slavery (of one of many things) could attest to. If you're constntly treated as it so much that you've grown used to it that doesn't mean you're not stil being treated like dirt or that it somehow no longer hurts you.

So that borderline rape (and the only reason I consider it borderline is Zev's ignorance of what he was doing) is another damning mark to him for me. It's raw and realistic...so is Vaughn taking the elven bride to rape doesn't mean I have to feel for the character or not condemn the act.

Edit: Yes I have the fixes I dislike bugs very strongly. Particular the Ali being king even whn he's not bug. <_<

Also: Poor Leliana:crying: I see why she wouldn't mention it. Who wants to remember stuff like that? 

I think the major difference is, as far as the mage goes, Zevran didn't propose sex.  Had the mage not brought it up, he just would have killed her.  He was not there to have sex with her, he was there to murder her.  While  I am of the camp that he probably should have just killed her and moved on, the suggestion for sex was not from him and he would have been fine without it.  

You cannot compared what Zevran did to what Vaughn did.  I want to make clear i'm not saying either is better or worse.  Vaugh kidnapped women with the intent to rape them, and if they died, well, no skin off his nose.  Zevran was there to kill the mage, and since she suggested sex, he went along with it and not only had sex, but was willing to try to save her.

edit; i really need to get LS one day and be irritated by it as well :innocent:

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 novembre 2010 - 08:16 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

I think the major difference is, as far as the mage goes, Zevran didn't propose sex.  Had the mage not brought it up, he just would have killed her.  He was not there to have sex with her, he was there to murder her.  While  I am of the camp that he probably should have just killed her and moved on, the suggestion for sex was not from him and he would have been fine without it.  

You cannot compared what Zevran did to what Vaughn did.  I want to make clear i'm not saying either is better or worse.  Vaugh kidnapped women with the intent to rape them, and if they died, well, no skin off his nose.  Zevran was there to kill the mage, and since she suggested sex, he went along with it and not only had sex, but was willing to try to save her.

edit; i really need to get LS one day and be irritated by it as well :innocent:

And that's exactly why I consider it borderline. And not once did I compare what Zev and Vaughn did. Where did you get that?   I said both actions were raw and realistic not that they did the same things.

There's no guarantee the woman would've slept with him had she not feared for her life. Which plants it firmly in the grey area. Zevran isn't completely innocent in the situation either but due to his upbringing I can see why he wouldn't think to deeply on it.

Edit: You post too damn fast.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 novembre 2010 - 08:22 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I think the major difference is, as far as the mage goes, Zevran didn't propose sex.  Had the mage not brought it up, he just would have killed her.  He was not there to have sex with her, he was there to murder her.  While  I am of the camp that he probably should have just killed her and moved on, the suggestion for sex was not from him and he would have been fine without it.  

You cannot compared what Zevran did to what Vaughn did.  I want to make clear i'm not saying either is better or worse.  Vaugh kidnapped women with the intent to rape them, and if they died, well, no skin off his nose.  Zevran was there to kill the mage, and since she suggested sex, he went along with it and not only had sex, but was willing to try to save her.

edit; i really need to get LS one day and be irritated by it as well :innocent:

And that's exactly why I consider it borderline. And not once did I compare what Zev and Vaughn did. Where did you get that? 

From the message i quoted above.  Will edit to put it in in a second.

Edit: 

Ryzaki wrote...
So that borderline rape (and the only reason I consider it borderline is Zev's ignorance of what he was doing) is another damning mark to him for me. It's raw and realistic...so is Vaughn taking the elven bride to rape doesn't mean I have to feel for the character or not condemn the act. 

This here.  it may not have been your intention to compare them, but it looks like you're bringing it up as a comparison.

Again, i think the story is ugly as hell.  And that's one thing I appreciate about Zevran -- he sugarcoats nothing about what he did.  He tells the warden his past, later he'll say he is grateful for a new start in more than one dialog.  it doesn't sound like he's proud of all of this, just that he's explaining what he is.

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 novembre 2010 - 08:24 .

[Ryzaki]

I didn't compare the two. I merely called both actions Raw and realistic which they are. As is Leliana's torture and Alistiar's obsession with killing Loghain.

If I was comparing both actions I would've called it straight up rape.

Edit: That said that post wasn't particularly clear. What I meant to say was what he did to the mage was raw and realisitc but so for that matter was what Vaughn did to the elves, Marjoline's betrayal of Leliana and Alistair's inability to forgive Loghain.

Generally if I'm using a comparision I use the world similarly or like and don't murky the area with other descriptions (raw and realistic).

The comparision between the actions was how raw and realist they were not the two actions themselves.

And yes I know Zev doesn't sugarcoat. It's one of the things I respect about him. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 novembre 2010 - 08:27 .

[ejoslin]

well, bringing up a violent intended rape in the same paragraph as another you're calling rape, though the circumstances were completely different, well, it just asks for a mental leap to be made.

See, the fact that the mage is the one who brought up the sex is the reason why I think you have to take the whole culture into account. If it IS a game, trying to outwit your assassin, that makes a difference as well. If Zevran were the one to bring up the sex, i'd be the first to say it was irrelevant.

Edit;It's an interesting thing, though, I've noticed (and not just you, but just about everyone here), when we hear about the monstrous acts our companions have done, we can look at the same situation with two companions, and feel it's a reason to be more sympathetic for a character we like, and think it's irrelevant for a character we don't.

for instance: Leliana as an adult was tortured, most like raped, and was used and hurt.             
                   Zevran as a child was beaten, tortured, most likely raped, and was used and hurt probably to a greater extent as far younger.

both horrific and both shaped them in ways (though given zevran's age when it happened to him, it probably shaped him more).  But i see people who prefer either one dismissing the other.

It is interesting is all.

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 novembre 2010 - 08:31 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

well, bringing up a violent intended rape in the same paragraph as another you're calling rape, though the circumstances were completely different, well, it just asks for a mental leap to be made.

See, the fact that the mage is the one who brought up the sex is the reason why I think you have to take the whole culture into account. If it IS a game, trying to outwit your assassin, that makes a difference as well. If Zevran were the one to bring up the sex, i'd be the first to say it was irrelevant.

But you're the one who made the mental leap. Not me.

And once again. You have to take into fact that she knew he was going to kill her into account as well. So no. I don't see the culture as being an excuse. Her life was in danger. Culture or no any thing she did after that was to save her life. I.E. Duress.

Edit: About his past: It' the only reason I consider it borderline because he himself was abused and mistreated in similar ways. That's the only reason he gets the ignorance pass. I'm not dismissing his past out of had. His life sucked that doesn't negate his actions from being horrible the same with Leliana.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 novembre 2010 - 08:32 .

[Sarah1281]

I don't really buy the 'she wouldn't have had sex with him if it weren't for X' line of thinking in regards to it being called borderline rape.



There are lots of reasons people have sex that are not due to love. They could both be wasted, one of them could be getting paid for it, one of them could be seeking information from the second, the woman could be trying to get pregnant, one of them could be using the other for their money, they could just be trying to get a release, whatever.



So basically, no one would go around having sex if it weren't for...whatever their reason was for having sex.

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

well, bringing up a violent intended rape in the same paragraph as another you're calling rape, though the circumstances were completely different, well, it just asks for a mental leap to be made.

See, the fact that the mage is the one who brought up the sex is the reason why I think you have to take the whole culture into account. If it IS a game, trying to outwit your assassin, that makes a difference as well. If Zevran were the one to bring up the sex, i'd be the first to say it was irrelevant.

But you're the one who made the mental leap. Not me.

And once again. You have toake the fact that she knew he was going to kill her into account as well. So no. I don't see the culture as being an excuse. Her life was in danger. Culture or no any thing she did after that was to save her life. I.E. Duress.

Honestly, it's not much of a leap to make (like not one at all really, but no point arguing it).

but again, he was not there to have sex with her.  He SHOULD have just killed her instead of having sex with her first.  Agreed.  i've said that before.  But she asked him for sex, and so he did.  He tried to save her too.  I'd say, if it were a game, it was one she actually won.

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 novembre 2010 - 08:35 .