498 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

Well, the Guardian is basically a spirit, right?

He basically knows all kinds of stuff he has no business knowing, right?

And where do we think that information comes from?  Yup - that Maker dude seems the logical choice.

So, when the Maker gives him knowledge of Leli's vision, seems logical to assume he'd have told the Guardian "oh, yea, and btw - she's right!!!"

[Giggles_Manically]

There are a million and one other places he could get that knowledge from, outside the maker. We dont even know if he exists in DA.

[Sarah1281]

I think it's more the lyrium than anything and magic is allowing him to know these things but either way, if the Maker was personally speaking to the guardian then the guardian would not have adopted such a staunch 'The Maker spoke to Andraste and nobody else ever' position. Besides, why would the Maker who has turned his back on the whole world otu of disgust bother to help the guardian pull off some parlor tricks?

[Giggles_Manically]

[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...

I think it's more the lyrium than anything and magic is allowing him to know these things but either way, if the Maker was personally speaking to the guardian then the guardian would not have adopted such a staunch 'The Maker spoke to Andraste and nobody else ever' position. Besides, why would the Maker who has turned his back on the whole world otu of disgust bother to help the guardian pull off some parlor tricks? [/quote]

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 10 novembre 2010 - 01:54 .

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think it's more the lyrium than anything and magic is allowing him to know these things but either way, if the Maker was personally speaking to the guardian then the guardian would not have adopted such a staunch 'The Maker spoke to Andraste and nobody else ever' position. Besides, why would the Maker who has turned his back on the whole world otu of disgust bother to help the guardian pull off some parlor tricks?

There's no other indication I can think of that magic or lyrium allows people to just "know things" about others.

Plus, I didn't really think the Guardian was actually . . .you know, still alive, you know?  How else is that done?

And why would the Maker who has turned his back on the whole world out of disgust pick Leli to give a vision to, and why now, and why to help THIS warden?

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think it's more the lyrium than anything and magic is allowing him to know these things but either way, if the Maker was personally speaking to the guardian then the guardian would not have adopted such a staunch 'The Maker spoke to Andraste and nobody else ever' position. Besides, why would the Maker who has turned his back on the whole world out of disgust bother to help the guardian pull off some parlor tricks?

There's no other indication I can think of that magic or lyrium allows people to just "know things" about others.

Plus, I didn't really think the Guardian was actually . . .you know, still alive, you know?  How else is that done?

And why would the Maker who has turned his back on the whole world out of disgust pick Leli to give a vision to, and why now, and why to help THIS warden?

I don't think that he gave her the vision, first of all, just that the guardian has no way of knowing for sure and that Leliana faking it is just his opinion. If he did, however, I think that ending a Blight that Ferelden is determined to fall to is a bit more important and worthy of divine intervention than finding information that can be used to ask would-be pilgrims a question that not only does it not matter how they answer but they don't even have to answer to pass the test.

At no other time does lyrium or magic allow such potent healing, either, but I highly doubt the ridiculously powerful lyrium vein is just a coincidence. Maybe the Maker specifically created that vein to give the Ashes power. Lyrium isn't fully understand even by the people of Thedas and large quantities are capable of very strange things. Not to mention that the point of Oghren talking about the lyrium is to provide an alternative explanation for the Ashes' healing properties beyond them being holy. If the lyrium present were not capable of the healing/psychic-ness/undead guardian/whatever then it would be a pretty poor choose-your-own-explanation, don't you think? 

[TJPags]

Big lyrium vein what now?  (never had Oghren there, and never heard this before - or forgot it).

So before I go further, can someone clue me in on this?

[Sarah1281]

Oghren: Hmm... this mountain has veins of lyrium running all through it. Can't mistake that tingle... It's so strong I can just about smell it. (Thoughtfully, a slow dawning realization is coming on him) Makes you wonder what's magical here? The Urn, or the mountain? What exactly is keeping you alive, Guardian? (A little challengingly, accusingly)

Guardian: It is not my place to question. (Quietly)



Since the devs won't confirm if the Maker even exists or not, they have to have an alternative explanation for everything that could be the work of the Maker like this. It could be the Maker...or it could be the lyrium.

[TJPags]

Ahhh, that's interesting.  Must pick up Oghren sooner next time, and take him places.  But I digress.

There's plenty of lyrium that we run into - Carridan's chamber has bunches of it.  We're not given an indication that it does anything other than enhancing magical powers, or at best, creating minor enchantments (on weapons, etc).  It doesn't seem to give anyone magical powers - any hint of that, and I'd think people would be bashing in the gates of Orzamar for those lyrium veins.  Consuming lyrium, or being near it, doesn't seem to do more than make people ill.

So, poor 'alternative explanation' if you ask me.

That said, if it was the lyrium keeping the guardian alive, and giving him this information, and the Maker doesn't exist  - well then, Leli didn't have a vision from the non-existant Maker, did she?

And Andraste was just as crazy - actually, more so.

[ejoslin]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think it's more the lyrium than anything and magic is allowing him to know these things but either way, if the Maker was personally speaking to the guardian then the guardian would not have adopted such a staunch 'The Maker spoke to Andraste and nobody else ever' position. Besides, why would the Maker who has turned his back on the whole world otu of disgust bother to help the guardian pull off some parlor tricks?

There's no other indication I can think of that magic or lyrium allows people to just "know things" about others.

Plus, I didn't really think the Guardian was actually . . .you know, still alive, you know?  How else is that done?

And why would the Maker who has turned his back on the whole world out of disgust pick Leli to give a vision to, and why now, and why to help THIS warden?

Well, if his knowledge truly IS from the maker, why did he not know about the dragon blood and the agreement with Kolgrim to defile the ashes?

[TJPags]

ejoslin wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think it's more the lyrium than anything and magic is allowing him to know these things but either way, if the Maker was personally speaking to the guardian then the guardian would not have adopted such a staunch 'The Maker spoke to Andraste and nobody else ever' position. Besides, why would the Maker who has turned his back on the whole world otu of disgust bother to help the guardian pull off some parlor tricks?

There's no other indication I can think of that magic or lyrium allows people to just "know things" about others.

Plus, I didn't really think the Guardian was actually . . .you know, still alive, you know?  How else is that done?

And why would the Maker who has turned his back on the whole world out of disgust pick Leli to give a vision to, and why now, and why to help THIS warden?

Well, if his knowledge truly IS from the maker, why did he not know about the dragon blood and the agreement with Kolgrim to defile the ashes?

What are you doing, using logic to derail my logical arguments!!! 

Good point, though . . . perhaps the thoughts of Kolgrim, etc. are being protected somehow by the Dragon?

[Sarah1281]

Andraste doesn't have to be crazy if the Maker doesn't exist. Why couldn't she just have used the Maker as a rallying point to take down the Tevinter?



Lyrium can send you into the Fade, lyrium can kill you in its raw form, lyrium is suspected to have something to do with why dwarves are cut off from the Fade...lyrium can do a lot of things. And the lyrium in Caridin's chamber and the other places are clearly far inferior sources to the one at the temple or else Oghren, who can go to all of those places, wouldn't have felt the need to talk about how strong that is and not anything else.



No one's suggesting that just drinking lyrium or whatever could give you magic (although I'm guessing that even if it could not that many people would be eager to become a mage and deal with all of the Chantry oppression and widespread fear). The point is that it's been hundreds of years at least since the Ashes were moved to the mountain. We don't know how long it took for the Ashes to be sitting on the top of the lyrium vein for them to gain the powers they currently have and whose to say the guardian gained his powers all at once? Constant exposure to the lyrium vein may have initially only kept him alive/present and over the decades and centuries he gained his other gifts. I'm willing to bet that chances are even slimmer that a would-be mage would be willing to stand around in the temple for centuries just to get power that might not even work outside of the temple. And it's not like people REALLY understand much about how lyrium works, anyway.



And even if the lyrium kept the guardian around and gave him his information, that doesn't have to mean the Maker doesn't exist or didn't give Leliana the vision. He could just not care about Andraste's Ashes enough to get involved.

[Sarah1281]

Good point, though . . . perhaps the thoughts of Kolgrim, etc. are being protected somehow by the Dragon?

Random high dragon stronger than the Maker? Some god.

[ejoslin]

Honestly, I"m not sure about the Maker. You know that spirits and demons exist, that where are dreams happen are actually a real land where they reside. Magic is a reality as well. Could the story of Andraste be true? Sure. But there are other explanations other than the Maker for miraculous things happening -- the Chantry just has its own spin on it.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Good point, though . . . perhaps the thoughts of Kolgrim, etc. are being protected somehow by the Dragon?

Random high dragon stronger than the Maker? Some god.

I'm going to have to go with . . . the general god quandry.

Every society has their god - it is all powerful, all knowing, etc, yet the society falls, is defeated in battle, people die, bad things happen, etc.  Therefore, their god is not all powerful.  And that's not even bringing up the old, if god is all powerful, can s/he make a rock so heavy even s/he can't move it?

So, yea, yet again, it's been proven that all gods have a fatal flaw.  

Note - I'm the last person who should ever argue in favor of the powers of a deity, as I am a proud atheist.

Note 2 - my comments should not be taken as criticism of any current religion/deity, nor anyone's right to believe in said religion/deity.

[wickedgoodreed]

Pffttt...yeah, the Guardian. This is the same guy who accuses the City Elf of possibly being responsible for what happens to Shiani...cause, you know, the warden just didn't run down the hall fast enough.

It seemed to me that the Guardian pulls his knowledge from the minds of the people he's interrogating. If the warden asks how the Guardian knows what he does, doesn't he respond by saying something along the lines of he "sees it in her heart"? Meaning it comes from the Warden herself, and not the Maker. And if the Guardian believes that the Maker only speaks to Andraste  (I'm not saying that this is true, just that it's what the Guardian believes), then that kind of excludes Him from telling the Guardian anything. Either way, the Guardian's purpose is to provoke and test people by throwing their deepest doubts into their faces, that doesn't mean his accusations are true.

We know from Alistair that the rose Leliana talks about really existed, and she certainly wouldn't be the first person to have a symbolic dream. In the Fade, Leliana will openly admit that her vision might not be from the Maker, but she still believes in it anyway and that it guides her to do what is right. So in the end, it doesn't really matter whether it's truly from the Maker or not, even to Leliana herself. And there's no way to prove it one way or the other, which is what makes having faith meaningful.

[Sarah1281]

Pffttt...yeah, the Guardian. This is the same guy who accuses the City Elf of possibly being responsible for what happens to Shiani...cause, you know, the warden just didn't run down the hall fast enough.

Actually, the guardian says nothing about running down the hall fast enough and doesn't pass any judgement about what happens. He asks if you feel that you failed her (or any of the other five origin people) and from his response to your answer, it's clear that he was just trying to see whether you were dwelling on the past or moving forward with your life. It's about your mindset, not your culpability. WYNNE, on the other hand...

[Giggles_Manically]

I hate the guardian as a mage:

G: Tell me did you fail Jowan?

... You mean the little bastard who lied to me, and to the woman he "loved" about being a bloodmage. Nearly killed a few templars and Irving with blood magic, and left the both of us to take the fall for it? THAT JOWAN!

G: Yes.

[TJPags]

wickedgoodreed wrote...

Pffttt...yeah, the Guardian. This is the same guy who accuses the City Elf of possibly being responsible for what happens to Shiani...cause, you know, the warden just didn't run down the hall fast enough.

It seemed to me that the Guardian pulls his knowledge from the minds of the people he's interrogating. If the warden asks how the Guardian knows what he does, doesn't he respond by saying something along the lines of he "sees it in her heart"? Meaning it comes from the Warden herself, and not the Maker. And if the Guardian believes that the Maker only speaks to Andraste  (I'm not saying that this is true, just that it's what the Guardian believes), then that kind of excludes Him from telling the Guardian anything. Either way, the Guardian's purpose is to provoke and test people by throwing their deepest doubts into their faces, that doesn't mean his accusations are true.

We know from Alistair that the rose Leliana talks about really existed, and she certainly wouldn't be the first person to have a symbolic dream. In the Fade, Leliana will openly admit that her vision might not be from the Maker, but she still believes in it anyway and that it guides her to do what is right. So in the end, it doesn't really matter whether it's truly from the Maker or not, even to Leliana herself. And there's no way to prove it one way or the other, which is what makes having faith meaningful.

So, the Guardian is some kind of mind or heart reader?

[wickedgoodreed]

TJPags wrote...

So, the Guardian is some kind of mind or heart reader?

I have no idea what the Guardian is, but that is the explanation he gives the Warden.

[TJPags]

wickedgoodreed wrote...

TJPags wrote...

So, the Guardian is some kind of mind or heart reader?

I have no idea what the Guardian is, but that is the explanation he gives the Warden.

Fair enough.

[sylvanaerie]

Thanks Nadia. Yes that's my lil canon mage, Neria and Wynne behind her there. Both are sporting TMP's hairdos. LOL and the quote is from Zevran. I love that guy LOL

[Persephone]

Daewan wrote...

Religious faith pretty much relies on the inability to string logical thoughts together. Together with the fact that their religious texts change by leader and can be interpreted multiple ways, inconsistent behavior becomes a badge of true faith rather than hypocrisy.

So religious folk all share the inability to string logical thoughts together? Well, thanks, I wasn't aware of that. <_<