498 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

"Charmingly eccentric". That's my take on it, and I'm sticking to my guns. What is that that Alistair says "She's more 'ooooh pretty colors' instead of 'muahahah I am princess stabbitty stab kill kill'?" or something like that. One of the funnier lines in the game.

[Maria Caliban]

Daewan wrote...

Religious faith pretty much relies on the inability to string logical thoughts together. Together with the fact that their religious texts change by leader and can be interpreted multiple ways, inconsistent behavior becomes a badge of true faith rather than hypocrisy.

Or, you know, getting a vision from one's god.

[Giggles_Manically]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Daewan wrote...

Religious faith pretty much relies on the inability to string logical thoughts together. Together with the fact that their religious texts change by leader and can be interpreted multiple ways, inconsistent behavior becomes a badge of true faith rather than hypocrisy.

Or, you know, getting a vision from one's god.

Please, please, please dont start a religous debate on the forum.

PLEASE!

It starts a flame war that causes me to hide until it blows over.

[Sarah1281]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Daewan wrote...

Religious faith pretty much relies on the inability to string logical thoughts together. Together with the fact that their religious texts change by leader and can be interpreted multiple ways, inconsistent behavior becomes a badge of true faith rather than hypocrisy.

Or, you know, getting a vision from one's god.

I think the post you were responding to was more about religion in general than whether or not Leliana in particular had a vision. As far as I know, most religious people never claim to have had a vision from one's god so I'm not sure how that really even addresses the post you were replying to.

But we really shouldn't be talking about this...

[TJPags]

oh brother wrote...

I suppose to tie this whole debate back into the original topic you could agree (as an atheist, agnostic or theist) that believing in a god does not make you crazy. If that was the case then presumably most people in medieval Europe (the closest real life analogue to Ferelden) would have to be classed as crazy, since religious belief was widespread.

So, Leliana's belief in her vision presumably does not make her crazy. At least in my head.

I don't want to make this about religion again, but no, believing in a god does not make you crazy.

Believing that god has sent you visions to tell you what to do does, sometimes, make you crazy.

[Lenimph]

TJPags wrote....

Believing that god has sent you visions to tell you what to do does, sometimes, make you crazy.

Does it? May you  elaborate how please?

[Sarah1281]

Lenimph wrote...

TJPags wrote....

Believing that god has sent you visions to tell you what to do does, sometimes, make you crazy.

Does it? May you  elaborate how please?

Well, if you're wrong about your god sending you visions then you might be crazy. If Leliana is wrong, she just had a dream and attached too much importance to it and so that's not necessarily crazy. If she started hearing 'the Maker' talking to her and he really wasn't because he either didn't exist or was still ignoring the world then that might be schizophrenic. A lot of people think Joan of Arc was crazy for claiming God talked to her but other people believe that this did really happen and there's really no way to know one way or another.

[TJPags]

Lenimph wrote...

TJPags wrote....

Believing that god has sent you visions to tell you what to do does, sometimes, make you crazy.

Does it? May you  elaborate how please?

Well, hearing voices is one sign of certain forms of insanity - so visions or dreams telling you what to do can fall into that category.  Then there's the issue of what it is that your god is telling you to do.

To povide an example from my neck of the woods, there was a famous serial killer in the NY area several decades back who believed he was being instructed by satan - through words given him by a dog.  That qualifies as flat out bonkers, to me - and to many other people, some of them quite smart and educated in the area of insanity.

So, yea, visions or other instructions from god can sometimes be simple delusions, signs of mental illness - and acting on them, while not always resulting in murders, can still sometimes be disastrous.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lenimph wrote...

TJPags wrote....

Believing that god has sent you visions to tell you what to do does, sometimes, make you crazy.

Does it? May you  elaborate how please?

I don't want to get into this much, but when the man we believe is a Prophet first had the Revelation, he was terrified and thought he was going crazy and it took him a while to realise what he is (which for me is indication that he isn't crazy. Crazy people don't think they are crazy).

So if someone happens to recieve some divine vision and not fear a bit for their sanity, I would worry a bit.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 novembre 2010 - 02:03 .

[Zjarcal]

Eh, if we go by that philosophy, virtually every religious person is crazy. My grandmother had "visions" herself and she didn't question them. Many saints had them as well and they didn't question them. I wouldn't call them crazy, just people with a very strong faith. I think it's unfair to question their sanity just because they believed in their visions.



Others may choose to go in denial or think they're going crazy. Maybe their faith isn't as strong or maybe they are afraid to fall for a "false vision". Who knows?



But seriously, this is a subject that I find too sensitive and inevitably someone will be offended.



As for Leliana, I don't believe she's crazy. If anyone wants to believe she is, I won't argue with them.

[wickedgoodreed]

Honestly, the idea that Leliana as presented in the game could ever possibly meet the threshold to be diagnosed with schizophrenia is laughable to me. People who have a mental illness that severe are typically rendered completely incapacitated and unable to function as a result.



Leliana's belief about her one dream might be deviant from the norm, but it is not causing her undue distress, it doesn't prevent her from functioning or otherwise being completely reasonable, and it doesn't pose her as a danger to herself or others. She may be mistaken and she may be eccentric, but imo she is not "crazy" and she is most certainly not schizophrenic.

[Lenimph]

Leliana took inspiration from a dream and the world around her and associated it with her own personal beliefs. If that makes her crazy then I'm crazy too. <_<

Modifié par Lenimph, 11 novembre 2010 - 02:20 .

[Sarah1281]

wickedgoodreed wrote...

Honestly, the idea that Leliana as presented in the game could ever possibly meet the threshold to be diagnosed with schizophrenia is laughable to me. People who have a mental illness that severe are typically rendered completely incapacitated and unable to function as a result.

Leliana's belief about her one dream might be deviant from the norm, but it is not causing her undue distress, it doesn't prevent her from functioning or otherwise being completely reasonable, and it doesn't pose her as a danger to herself or others. She may be mistaken and she may be eccentric, but imo she is not "crazy" and she is most certainly not schizophrenic.

I think I'm the only one who used the word schizophrenia and so I'll address this: I specifically said that Leliana had a dream and believed it to be a vision so that if she were wrong she just put too much importance on a dream. I said that I did not believe she was crazy. I mentioned that one way someone could be crazy if they believed they heard God was if they were wrong and the voices they heard were due to schizophrenia. I did not say that Leliana had schizophrenia. She really gives no indication of having this.

Edit: Seriously, why do I get misunderstood every ****ing time I turn around on this forum?!?! I said IF she began to hear the voice of the Maker and was wrong then she might have schizophrenia, not that she did hear him, would hear him in the future, or actually had that.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 11 novembre 2010 - 02:29 .

[Zjarcal]

There, there, Sarah. Misunderstandings are the norm on forums. No need to beat yourself about it.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 11 novembre 2010 - 02:31 .

[TJPags]

I don't think anyone has been singling out anyone else for an attack, sarah - in fact, I think people have been pretty sensitive of the issue in this thread. Please don't take it personally.



I, personally, think she's crazy, perhaps not in a clinical sense, but in a "damn this girl is psycho" sense. The whole scene the first morning after you sleep with her creeped me out - some of her other comments bother me, and some of her epilogue slides point to it as well.



This is just my own opinion, certainly not a diagnosis. The Maker vision is part of it for me, but not the whole part.

[wickedgoodreed]

Sarah, I'm sorry if my post made you feel singled out or misunderstood. It wasn't directed at you specifically. My post was meant to be a general defense of Leliana's character and sanity in a thread entitled, "Why Leliana is crazy." I don't think that you believe that, but I get the feeling that it is a general misconception of her character, and that's what I was attempting to address.

[Zjarcal]

TJPags wrote...
The whole scene the first morning after you sleep with her creeped me out

Really? Was it the eyelashes joke?

Eh. Like I said earlier, if you think she's crazy, that's fine by me.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 11 novembre 2010 - 02:40 .

[LadyJaneGrey]

sylvanaerie wrote...

"Charmingly eccentric". That's my take on it, and I'm sticking to my guns. What is that that Alistair says "She's more 'ooooh pretty colors' instead of 'muahahah I am princess stabbitty stab kill kill'?" or something like that. One of the funnier lines in the game.

Agreed.  If she is not hardened, Leliana reminds me of James Stewart's character in Harvey.

[maxernst]

Honestly, I'm not certain enough of when she's lying and when she's telling the truth to even begin to guess if she's really crazy.

[Sarah1281]

The Water God wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Daewan wrote...

Religious faith pretty much relies on the inability to string logical thoughts together. Together with the fact that their religious texts change by leader and can be interpreted multiple ways, inconsistent behavior becomes a badge of true faith rather than hypocrisy.

Or, you know, getting a vision from one's god.

I think the post you were responding to was more about religion in general than whether or not Leliana in particular had a vision. As far as I know, most religious people never claim to have had a vision from one's god so I'm not sure how that really even addresses the post you were replying to.

But we really shouldn't be talking about this...

Lol I woul've thought Athiests would've jumped at the chance to play a pious character in a video game.

But yeah I agree we shouldn't be making comments like this. Stop saying Lelianas crazy because of her faith, having faith doesn't make a person stupid.

No one is saying she's crazy or stupid for believing in the Maker. No one. Even the people who think that she is crazy for a reason tied up in the Maker believe that because she claims to have ahd a vision from the Maker and they don't believe her. Hell, the game itself has people accusing her of being crazy or outright lying about it. That's not to say those characters are necessarily right but it's not like the idea that Leliana might be crazy didn't come from the game.

[TJPags]

The Water God wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Daewan wrote...

Religious faith pretty much relies on the inability to string logical thoughts together. Together with the fact that their religious texts change by leader and can be interpreted multiple ways, inconsistent behavior becomes a badge of true faith rather than hypocrisy.

Or, you know, getting a vision from one's god.

I think the post you were responding to was more about religion in general than whether or not Leliana in particular had a vision. As far as I know, most religious people never claim to have had a vision from one's god so I'm not sure how that really even addresses the post you were replying to.

But we really shouldn't be talking about this...

Lol I woul've thought Athiests would've jumped at the chance to play a pious character in a video game.

But yeah I agree we shouldn't be making comments like this. Stop saying Lelianas crazy because of her faith, having faith doesn't make a person stupid.

Crazy and stupid are 2 different things.  However, nobody is saying Leli is crazy OR stupid simply because she believes in the Maker.  It's more to do with her thinking the Maker sent her a vision, as well as some of her actions in the game that make me believe she's a bit on the nutsy side.  But I don't believe she's stupid in any event.

And why, as an atheist, would I want to play a pious character?

[Sarah1281]

Why would you not want to play a pious character?

Because the Chantry is horribly corrupt? Though I will admit my DN is very pious, just about the Ancestors instead of the Maker. Besides, I generally find I'll need a reason to RP something and not a reason to NOT do it.