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[AkumaBear]

People hating on Wynne in the Wynne hate thread, but no one hating Leliana in the Leliana hate thread?
So no one hates Leliana?
Huh even if it is trolling, I was expecting something...

Modifié par AkumaBear, 11 novembre 2010 - 05:45 .

[Maria Caliban]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well, if you're wrong about your god sending you visions then you might be crazy. If Leliana is wrong, she just had a dream and attached too much importance to it and so that's not necessarily crazy. If she started hearing 'the Maker' talking to her and he really wasn't because he either didn't exist or was still ignoring the world then that might be schizophrenic. A lot of people think Joan of Arc was crazy for claiming God talked to her but other people believe that this did really happen and there's really no way to know one way or another.

Possibilities:
1. She really did have a vision from the Maker
2. She really did have a vision, but not from the Maker
3. She had a dream and interpreted it as a vision
4. She's delusional
5. She's lying

On any given day, I might favor any of these interpretations.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 11 novembre 2010 - 06:29 .

[AkumaBear]

The Water God wrote...
-snip-

Leliana wants to spread love around to everyone. I don't know why too many people would want to hate on her just for that.

The same thing could be said for Zevran. Just trying to spread the love.

To me, she's treading close to Mary Suedom.
Unless someone would like to point out her flaws?

[EccentricSage]

AkumaBear wrote...

The Water God wrote...
-snip-

Leliana wants to spread love around to everyone. I don't know why too many people would want to hate on her just for that.

The same thing could be said for Zevran. Just trying to spread the love.

To me, she's treading close to Mary Suedom.
Unless someone would like to point out her flaws?

Well, her flaws would be that once she takes a liking to someone, she lets them shape who she is.  I think she is the type of girl who intentionaly plays the role of Marry-Sue in conversation, but in reality, we know she took up being a Bard of her own free will, and thus killed and possibly tortured of her own free will.  I think that could be considered a character flaw.  She lies a lot, to the warden, to her companions, and quite possibly even to herself.  Perhaps she was so good at being the performer who could be whatever her mark wants, that she no longer knows really who she is, and can't stop acting?

To be quite honest, I don't like her, but I do find her interesting.

[EccentricSage]

AkumaBear wrote...

People hating on Wynne in the Wynne hate thread, but no one hating Leliana in the Leliana hate thread?
So no one hates Leliana?
Huh even if it is trolling, I was expecting something...

I honestly hate Lelliana as a fictional person.  But not as a well writen character.  Honestly, I think I've gotten most of my ranting out of the way on her elsewhere, as I don't use her much in game, so she does not erk me as much as Alistair has recently.  So conversely, I think I've 'hated' on Alistair more than Lelliana lately, even though, over all, I actually like him much more than her. lol

Ether way, I'd rather discuss the pros and cons of a character's personality and actions rather than rant or troll.  And I'm not very interested in this never ending debate about her vision, as I think it could go several different ways, none of which are confirmed in game, so what would be the point?

I was rather impressed here that Lel fans did not seize upon me for my view on why she is 'insane'.  It hasn't been like that in past threads, where there'd be three different types of Lel fans hating on my post for completely different reasons, and none of them would be happy untill I ether leave or go "OMGZ, You are right!  I'm in love with Lelly Belly!  Baaaaaaaawww!!!   Jars of eyelashes!!!  Nothing creepy about that!"  I wonder if those types have gotten bored and wandered off?

[Ashaman X]

Before I post, let me admit to be a pretty hardcore Leli fan. So far I've only romanced her, and my main character loves her beyond words.



Leli had a vision, but I feel that whether it's real or not is left up to you to decide. Perhaps the Maker really did reach out and give her the vision. After all, if he is what is said about him, he can do it easily enough. The Chantry and everyone would of course denounce this and label the person as crazy, as there would be no proof of the vision, but there is nothing saying that the Maker couldn't actually send the vision after all.



Another view is that Leli's subconcious mind created the vision, but in such a powerful way that she believed it to be real with all her heart. The Chantry completely changed Leli's life for over 2 years, she is a very different person after that time compared to what she originally was.



Overall, you could never really know if it's real or not. Thedas is a very different place to our world after all. Like the rest of your companions, Leli is flawed and has plenty of issues, and like the others, is open to being shaped by your Warden as the game goes on. While not perfect, the characters in DA are about as close to being truly human as in any game I've ever played. No companion is perfect, just like no human is perfect.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

There are a million and one other places he could get that knowledge from, outside the maker. We dont even know if he exists in DA.

(Husband)

I would tend to believe in the Maker, based on an Occam's razor view of events.   Not just the Gift of Discernment that the Guardian has but Eamon being healed by an apparent miracle etc.     The claim that "There is no Maker" by the Demon in the alienage actually fits other cases of reputed possession where blasphemies etc. take place.   Etc.

[mousestalker]

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

There are a million and one other places he could get that knowledge from, outside the maker. We dont even know if he exists in DA.

(Husband)

I would tend to believe in the Maker, based on an Occam's razor view of events.   Not just the Gift of Discernment that the Guardian has but Eamon being healed by an apparent miracle etc.     The claim that "There is no Maker" by the Demon in the alienage actually fits other cases of reputed possession where blasphemies etc. take place.   Etc.

In Awakening, Justice, who I personally think of as honest, says that spirits, and by extension demons, have no knowledge of the Maker one way or the other.

Odds are the demon in question in the Alienage was trying to provoke a rather devout templar.

[Addai]

mousestalker wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

There are a million and one other places he could get that knowledge from, outside the maker. We dont even know if he exists in DA.

(Husband)

I would tend to believe in the Maker, based on an Occam's razor view of events.   Not just the Gift of Discernment that the Guardian has but Eamon being healed by an apparent miracle etc.     The claim that "There is no Maker" by the Demon in the alienage actually fits other cases of reputed possession where blasphemies etc. take place.   Etc.

In Awakening, Justice, who I personally think of as honest, says that spirits, and by extension demons, have no knowledge of the Maker one way or the other.

Odds are the demon in question in the Alienage was trying to provoke a rather devout templar.

(Husband)

Well the Maker that exists in game seems a bit like Deist, Clockmaker diety,  a deity that stands apart from creation and tends to let the world go on auto pilot most of the time.

that being said I would normally expect the people in the After life to be aware of the deity.


I would add in the discussion a thought I was going to add in to my previous post...   I would see an argument more for a Gnostic "the deity and his religion is evil and flawed" in terms of how the Chantry sometimes behaves than an argument for atheism in the game.

[ejoslin]

The Maker can exist and the Chantry still be wrong. There's a major schism in the Chantry as it is -- who's to say what's right.



And while I'm a strong believer in Occam's razor, I'm not sure Goddidit is included as an explanation for anything. Thedas is a world where spirits exist, where there is a real connection between people and the fade, where spirits and demons can see into people's hearts (you see this with desire demons). That the guardian is a spirit is beyond doubt. What he knows, though, is no more than any desire demon knows.

[mousestalker]

Isn't there a book that discusses whether or not Andraste was simply a really powerful mage?

[EccentricSage]

Nothing in the game that I know of truly has to prove the Maker exists. It's funny, the arguments that are made in favor of a Maker by fans here run along the same lines as the arguments of people of faiths in our real world. Other explanations can be made for many things in game besides the Maker.

We only have a vague understanding of what the fade is and how it works. It reminds me a bit of the theory of an Astral Plain in our real world. If you look up Astral Plain, Out Of Body, and Astral Projection, you'll see the simularities with the Fade of Dragon Age. I personally have had experiences with real spirits, so I believe spirits, and a realm of spirits, are just as real in our world as in Dragon Age. Likewise, I've found no reason to believe in a deity in our world thus far, despite being spiritual. I'm sure this will color my interpretation of Dragon Age's lore just as much as other's belief in a god in our world might color their interpretation of the game lore.

I think this is one of the things that makes Dragon Age so incredibly compelling. There is no more certanty in Dragon Age than there is in reality. The creators of the game do not decide for us what we are to believe in, nor which factions in game are right or wrong.

Ok, I'm sure I'm veering way off topic.

Back the the vision. For all we know, Lelliana's vision and that rose could have been the work of a spirit and not the maker. Or perhaps the Chantry is lying, and all people except for Dwarves have some small magical ability, rather, it simply does not come naturally to most as it does with Mages. Perhaps, then, the dream was Lelliana's own higher self, and her conection to the fade, directing her, and perhapse her own desire for proof was what gave that rose life. Or perhaps the rose was purely a coincidence. I know from experience that rose bushes can go dormant and appear dead for a long time, and then out of no where, a single living sprig with a flower will bloom.

There are really too many possabilities and not enough known about how the world works for us to know for sure what was going on with Lel's 'vision', or weather the Maker is real.

It could even be possible that there are spirits in the Fade that are fed by faith and warship, who take on an inteligence much as demons do, and then act out based upon the collective beliefs of the group who fed it. In the occult that would be called an egregore.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 11 novembre 2010 - 01:06 .

[Ryzaki]

Frankly I think the Maker exists, maybe not in the form the Chantry exists but I wouldn't completely rule out he fact that a divine being created everything. (Though I have questions about their motives).  

[Maria Caliban]

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

There are a million and one other places he could get that knowledge from, outside the maker. We dont even know if he exists in DA.

(Husband)

I would tend to believe in the Maker, based on an Occam's razor view of events.   Not just the Gift of Discernment that the Guardian has but Eamon being healed by an apparent miracle etc.

I'd think occam's razor would support the various miracles as being a product of the massive amount of lyrium in the mountain. More lyrium than Oghren says he's ever seen in one place.

The claim that "There is no Maker" by the Demon in the alienage actually fits other cases of reputed possession where blasphemies etc. take place.   Etc.

Both demons and regular spirits have no knowledge of the Maker, which is odd as they're immortal and apparently his first children.

[Addai]

 'Quote
Id think occam's razor would support the various miracles as being a
product of the massive amount of lyrium in the mountain. More lyrium
than Oghren says he's ever seen in one place.
Quote


(husband)

Well it seems a bit coincidental that the healing happened at the exact time that the Ashes were put on Eamon.   While it could be a coincidence or a result of another variable it seems the odds are against it.   So yes Occams razor.   If it was just having lots of lyrium in the area or actually the result of a magic spell why didn't it happen sooner?   Bad luck?   

I recognize the old Social Science adage "correlation does not equal causation".   The mathematical relationship between ice cream eating and drowning is the example most quoted.   There can be another factor that the two are linked to that is the real cause .   In the drowning / Ice Cream one it is time of year and the activities that usually go along with it.

Yet correlation often does point to a cause.   Cigaretts smoking and cancer being the prime example.   So unless you can really think of another cause that can explain it....   It still seems the Maker is the best explanation.
 



Both demons and regular spirits have
no knowledge of the Maker, which is odd as they're immortal and
apparently his first children.


Well the Game Lore seems to explain that.   The Maker appears to be both the Gnostic Demiurge and the Gnostic High God.    He creates flawed creations like the Demiurge but like the True God also leaves the Divine Spark inside every human.   Of course that could just be Chantry propoganda explaining why they have no knowedge of him (That he abandoned them because of their lack of a soul)


dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Maker

Modifié par Addai67, 12 novembre 2010 - 04:18 .

[Bruddajakka]

I honestly think she had a dream which she thought was a vision. We don't know for sure if it was, or not but I think she definitely had the dream she describes.

[Sarah1281]

Well it seems a bit coincidental that the healing happened at the exact time that the Ashes were put on Eamon.

She's not claiming that. The Occam's Razor part is not that the ashes have nothing to do with healing him; it's that the ashes can heal him because of the lyrium on the mountain instead of Andraste being so holy her ashes can heal people without being around a very strong vein of lyrium for hundreds of years. Having lyrium AND the Maker makes it more complicated than just having it be lyrium.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well it seems a bit coincidental that the healing happened at the exact time that the Ashes were put on Eamon.

She's not claiming that. The Occam's Razor part is not that the ashes have nothing to do with healing him; it's that the ashes can heal him because of the lyrium on the mountain instead of Andraste being so holy her ashes can heal people without being around a very strong vein of lyrium for hundreds of years. Having lyrium AND the Maker makes it more complicated than just having it be lyrium.

(husband)

At this point, I would have to bring up the whole excercism of Connor thing.   If Lirium was such a factor then why didn't it boost Jowans ability to enter the Fade?     Having to kill a person or go to Circle Tower so they can cart in a bunch of it seems to knock a whole in the hypothesis.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 novembre 2010 - 04:47 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Ok the lyrium may not have anything to do with the ashes:



Here is the Codex entry for Havard's Aegis, which is a shield you pick up from the Ogre in the tower of Ishal:



Havard was Maferath's closest friend. They were children together in the same Avvar Clan. They fought side-by-side in so many battles that Maferath dubbed him, "Havard the Aegis", better to have at his side than any shield.

Maferath brought Havard with him to meet with the Tevinters; it was unthinkable to stand before his enemies without his Aegis.



When he understood that Maferath was giving Andraste over to be executed, Havard, unwilling to draw swords against his friend and liege, placed himself between Andraste and the Tevinter soldiers. The Tevinters struck him down, and Maferath left him for dead.



But Aegis was not so easily destroyed. Havard lived and made his way, gravely wounded, to the gates of Minrathous to stop the execution. Too late. He found only the ashes of the prophet, left to the wind and rain. When his fingers touched the ash, his ears filled with song, and he saw a vision of Andraste dressed in cloth of starlight. She knelt at his side, saying, "Rise, Ageis of the Faith, the Maker shall never forget you so long as I remember."



His wounds healed instantly. And with new strength, Havard gathered up Andraste's remains and carried them safely back to the lands of the Alamarri.



So legend states that the ashes healed a person BEFORE they were ever exposed to lyrium. As much as this may be legend, there is a claim that the ashes ALONE had power, before entering the Gauntlet. Even though this may just be a legend, many legends are based around real people, or events.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well it seems a bit coincidental that the healing happened at the exact time that the Ashes were put on Eamon.

She's not claiming that. The Occam's Razor part is not that the ashes have nothing to do with healing him; it's that the ashes can heal him because of the lyrium on the mountain instead of Andraste being so holy her ashes can heal people without being around a very strong vein of lyrium for hundreds of years. Having lyrium AND the Maker makes it more complicated than just having it be lyrium.

(husband)

At this point, I would have to bring up the whole excercism of Connor thing.   If Lirium was such a factor then why didn't it boost Jowans ability to enter the Fade?     Having to kill a person or go to Circle Tower so they can cart in a bunch of it seems to knock a whole in the hypothesis.

I don't quite understand what you're saying. There is A LOT of lyrium up on the mountain and the ashes have been there for centuries. Why should however many small lyrium potions that Jowan could down enable him to do the ritual by himself without using blood magic? 

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Ok the lyrium may not have anything to do with the ashes:

Here is the Codex entry for Havard's Aegis, which is a shield you pick up from the Ogre in the tower of Ishal:

Havard was Maferath's closest friend. They were children together in the same Avvar Clan. They fought side-by-side in so many battles that Maferath dubbed him, "Havard the Aegis", better to have at his side than any shield.
Maferath brought Havard with him to meet with the Tevinters; it was unthinkable to stand before his enemies without his Aegis.

When he understood that Maferath was giving Andraste over to be executed, Havard, unwilling to draw swords against his friend and liege, placed himself between Andraste and the Tevinter soldiers. The Tevinters struck him down, and Maferath left him for dead.

But Aegis was not so easily destroyed. Havard lived and made his way, gravely wounded, to the gates of Minrathous to stop the execution. Too late. He found only the ashes of the prophet, left to the wind and rain. When his fingers touched the ash, his ears filled with song, and he saw a vision of Andraste dressed in cloth of starlight. She knelt at his side, saying, "Rise, Ageis of the Faith, the Maker shall never forget you so long as I remember."

His wounds healed instantly. And with new strength, Havard gathered up Andraste's remains and carried them safely back to the lands of the Alamarri.

So legend states that the ashes healed a person BEFORE they were ever exposed to lyrium. As much as this may be legend, there is a claim that the ashes ALONE had power, before entering the Gauntlet. Even though this may just be a legend, many legends are based around real people, or events.

(husband)

I guess I could imagine the Lirium being used as a booster to the ashes to up their power level so the Faithful would need to take less of them to help conserve them for future generations etc.    Of course the mechanics of that are more true of magic potions and fantasy physics spell casting than actual lore around religious relics in theology, legend etc.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 novembre 2010 - 04:54 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I think lyrium just serves as the Phlebotinum,of the Dragon Age universe.



http://tvtropes.org/...liedPhlebotinum