498 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

I don't quite understand what you're saying. There is A LOT of lyrium up
on the mountain and the ashes have been there for centuries. Why should
however many small lyrium potions that Jowan could down enable him to
do the ritual by himself without using blood magic?


(husband)

Just some confusion on my part.   Assuming people were talking about where the miracle took place rather than where the Ashes were found.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 novembre 2010 - 05:04 .

[Maria Caliban]

Addai67 wrote...

(husband)

At this point, I would have to bring up the whole excercism of Connor thing.   If Lirium was such a factor then why didn't it boost Jowans ability to enter the Fade?     Having to kill a person or go to Circle Tower so they can cart in a bunch of it seems to knock a whole in the hypothesis.

Because Jowen didn't spend centuries absorbing massive amounts of lyrium like the ashes did? I am pretty sure that if he did, he'd have no problem interacting with the Fade.

Giggles_Manically wrote...

So legend states that the ashes healed a person BEFORE they were ever exposed to lyrium. As much as this may be legend, there is a claim that the ashes ALONE had power, before entering the Gauntlet. Even though this may just be a legend, many legends are based around real people, or events.

Actually, the legends don't mention the lyrium at all. I find it hard to believe that the ashes were accidentally placed in one of the largest lyrium veins in existence. That's like suggesting that Caridan just happened to build the Anvil of the Void in a cavern where lyrium was so rich it's swirled into the walls and bursting from the floor.

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I think lyrium just serves as the Phlebotinum,of the Dragon Age universe.

http://tvtropes.org/...liedPhlebotinum

I'd like to believe that what lyrium is, how it works, and why it works the way it does is something the writers have already hammered out.

I mean, we've been told that there's a reason why the elves and no one else have 'adaptive genetics,' but that we'll probably never find out why.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 12 novembre 2010 - 06:33 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I think lyrium just serves as the Phlebotinum,of the Dragon Age universe.

http://tvtropes.org/...liedPhlebotinum

I'd like to believe that what lyrium is, how it works, and why it works the way it does is something the writers have already hammered out.

I mean, we've been told that there's a reason why the elves and no one else have 'adaptive genetics,' but that we'll probably never find out why.

Well its very easy to do in fiction:
Star Trek: Anti-Matter/Nano bots/Reverse polarity
Star Wars: The force
Dragon Age: Lyrium
Stargate: Random bit of ancient technology 

Whenever you need something to do something amazing most settings have their go to substance.

[Maria Caliban]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'd like to believe that what lyrium is, how it works, and why it works the way it does is something the writers have already hammered out.

I mean, we've been told that there's a reason why the elves and no one else have 'adaptive genetics,' but that we'll probably never find out why.

Well its very easy to do in fiction:
Star Trek: Anti-Matter/Nano bots/Reverse polarity
Star Wars: The force
Dragon Age: Lyrium
Stargate: Random bit of ancient technology 

Whenever you need something to do something amazing most settings have their go to substance.

Okay, that's the exact opposite of what I said I wanted. None of the substances you've mentioned meet that criteria.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 12 novembre 2010 - 06:35 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Sorry its 12:00 Am out here and my mind is not firing on all cylinders.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

From what I remember of the codex on lyrium. It stated that lyrium is a mineral that when your exposed to unprocessed lyrium it causes dementia and hallucinations. The lyrium also makes a "singing" noise and that it flows like water, so it was dubbed the "water of the fade". Prolonged uses of processed lyruim can result in addiction or even mutation for mages.

How does that relate to the Urn and healing? Not sure but it is the most powerful mineral/source of energy on Thedas, so no telling what it can do.

As for Leliana and her vision. I kind of agree with the Alistair line "I believe she believes it was a vision". I don't think the Maker talked to her or sent her a vision, but I do believe she had a revelation sparked by her faith in the Maker or the ideal of the Maker which in a way is the Maker speaking to you.

Modifié par Jacks Smirking Revenge, 12 novembre 2010 - 07:03 .

[Sarah1281]

Lyrium relates to the Urn because the Urn is located on top of a mountain that Oghren informs you has a really intense lyrium vein and outright accuses the guardian of being kept alive with lyrium and the guardian tells him that he really has no idea why he's alive. Prolong exposure causing mutations does seem to point to lyrium being able to change the ashes in such a way over a period of hundreds of years.

[AkumaBear]

EccentricSage wrote...
Well, her flaws would be that once she takes a liking to someone, she lets them shape who she is. 

I wouldn't consider being easliy influenced a flaw. Being weak minded would be one though.

"I think she is the type of girl who intentionaly plays the role of Marry-Sue in conversation, but in reality, we know she took up being a Bard of her own free will, and thus killed and possibly tortured of her own free will. "
(Torture? What torture?)
I suppose this could be counted as one, but it depends on perspective. You character spends the entire game killing things.In game we don't see much of her being ruthless, nor is she condemned for it. Like it's a flaw that isn't considered one.

"I think that could be considered a character flaw.  She lies a lot, to the warden, to her companions, and quite possibly even to herself.  Perhaps she was so good at being the performer who could be whatever her mark wants, that she no longer knows really who she is, and can't stop acting?"
Is lying even a big deal in DA? Does anyone dislike her for lying?
Most companions lie to you at some point.

Modifié par AkumaBear, 13 novembre 2010 - 09:26 .

[EccentricSage]

AkumaBear wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...
Well, her flaws would be that once she takes a liking to someone, she lets them shape who she is. 

I wouldn't consider being easliy influenced a flaw. Being weak minded would be one though.

"I think she is the type of girl who intentionaly plays the role of Marry-Sue in conversation, but in reality, we know she took up being a Bard of her own free will, and thus killed and possibly tortured of her own free will. "
(Torture? What torture?)
I suppose this could be counted as one, but it depends on perspective. You character spends the entire game killing things.In game we don't see much of her being ruthless, nor is she condemned for it. Like it's a flaw that isn't considered one.

"I think that could be considered a character flaw.  She lies a lot, to the warden, to her companions, and quite possibly even to herself.  Perhaps she was so good at being the performer who could be whatever her mark wants, that she no longer knows really who she is, and can't stop acting?"
Is lying even a big deal in DA? Does anyone dislike her for lying?
Most companions lie to you at some point.

All companions have character flaws.  The circumstances of the game do not change that.  I stand by that yes, those are character flaws.  It's important that the characters have flaws, of course, or everyone would be Marry-Sues. 

I do see Lelliana as week minded.  She pretty much lets the Warden decide how she reacts to Marjolain's last words.  She let the Warden lead her by the nose quite a lot, with exceptions for religion... the only topic that gets a strong response out of her.  Most of the time, she came off as playing up a role, and when you tell her you think she should embrace her past, BOOM, changes up her roleplay.

As for her not showing ruthlessness in the game, yeah... but we know from her dialogue that she was rutheless in her past as a Bard.  No less rutheless than Zevran.  The way she talks about what fun it was on one hand, but then pretends to find ruthelessness abhorent because she's pretending to be reformed, is a flaw, IMO.  A flaw that makes her unlikable for me.  She's a hypocrit.

A fan could take ruthelessness as a flaw, or take hypocracy reguarding ruthelessness as a flaw.  I lean more towards the latter, otherwise I wouldn't like Zevran.

Oh... that reminds me... She places religion above loyalty or stopping the Blight.  To a fan who is religious in a simular manner as her, I'm sure that seems relatable.  But to me, that's a huge flaw.  She also is hypocritical about her religion.  On one hand, she will tell you a bit of a sob story about how the Chantry Sisters scorned her for having a difference of religious belief, yet she pesters Morrigan, trying to proselitize, and also gets annoyed at the Warden if he says he disagrees with her views, or if he poses a hypothetical contradiction in her religious views.  She expects others to treat her views better than she treats theirs.  She had snapped at me for pointing out that if the Maker created the Blight to punish mankind, then to try to end the Blight would be defying his will.  That really is one of my favorite dialogue options ever!  Props to her writer for that one!  OMG!  XD  Needless to say I nearly died when Zevran started picking on her about her vission.  XD

[Ryzaki]

AkumaBear wrote...

I wouldn't consider being easliy influenced a flaw. Being weak minded would be one though.

She is very weakwilled but I find that flaw in her endearing for some reason. I always took it as her just wanting to fill the void her mother and Cecil left and was willing to do anything to do so.

Though I admit my bias if she was a male I'd probably be disgusted. 

(Torture? What torture?)
I suppose this could be counted as one, but it depends on perspective. You character spends the entire game killing things.In game we don't see much of her being ruthless, nor is she condemned for it. Like it's a flaw that isn't considered one.

...Torture? Doesn't Leliana specifically say she rather manipulate than torture? She says some bards torture but she prefered the kinder, gentler ways.

I don't see ruthlessness as being a flaw myself as long as the people had it coming. You never see her hassling civilians so I guess that's why she wouldn't be condemned.

Most companions lie to you at some point.

Isn't the only companion that never lies to you at all...Sten? I knew liked him for a reason.

Edit: I'm not even religious and I understood why she got angry about the Blight remark. Your basically telling her that her god enjoys slaughtering innocents and having the world suffer. It's just not tactful at all. So her disapproval makes perfect sense.

I just wish there was a way to say you really didn't believe in the Maker instead of having to go along with either the Chantry's claims, agree with her or pose a "why" question

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 novembre 2010 - 02:54 .

[Sarah1281]

The way she talks about what fun it was on one hand, but then pretends to find ruthelessness abhorent because she's pretending to be reformed, is a flaw, IMO. A flaw that makes her unlikable for me. She's a hypocrit.

I don't think this necessarily makes her a hypocrite. She cannot help what she enjoys doing and she makes it clear it's more the thrill she gets from the 'hunt' then what she does once said hunt is over. She can be horrified by the ruthlessness while still getting a rush off of it. She can know it's wrong, not want to participate, not want to even enjoy it and yet even if she never does it again, she'll still always get that thrill from it.

On one hand, she will tell you a bit of a sob story about how the Chantry Sisters scorned her for having a difference of religious belief, yet she pesters Morrigan, trying to proselitize, and also gets annoyed at the Warden if he says he disagrees with her views, or if he poses a hypothetical contradiction in her religious views. She expects others to treat her views better than she treats theirs. She had snapped at me for pointing out that if the Maker created the Blight to punish mankind, then to try to end the Blight would be defying his will.

What are the dialogues disagreeing with her views? I haven't played in awhile but I seem to recall them not being rationally posed but rather mindless 'You're wrong Leliana. The Chantry says X.' Why is it hypocritical to say that she's annoyed with the way the sisters never took her alternate views seriously...and then get annoyed at you for doing the exact same thing in pretty much the exact same way?

I'd rather she didn't pester Morrigan either but it seems like she really can't comprehend how Morrigan could not believe in anything at all. The Dalish don't worship the Maker (though they seem to believe in him since they blame him for destroying their home) and the dwarves don't seem to care one way or another but at least they have their own system of belief. Morrigan claims that she doesn't believe in any of that and Leliana both doesn't really get that and wants her to concede that the Maker is real. It's annoying but since all she wants Morrigan to do is believe in the Maker but isn't trying to dictate how she'll go about that belief or what other things she's supposed to think beyond the Maker being real, I don't see that as hypocritical.

And it is certainly not hypocritical for her to want others to respect her beliefs and then to have your character basically trolling her with a "Hey! Hey! If you're so religious, then why do you want to stop the Blight, huh? Don't you know that your beloved Maker wants us all to die horrible, painfuld deaths? You should gladly turn yourself over to the darkspawn to be raped and tortured so you can become a broodmother and help carry out the Maker's great plans to wipe us all out." Since Leliana doesn't accept EVERY Chantry teaching - which is more openminded than some of the religious people around there - for all we know she doesn't believe their official story on where darkspawn came from.

...Torture? Doesn't Leliana specifically say she rather manipulate than torture?

She does but I've always gotten the impression that she has tortured in the past although she'd "prefer" to use other methods since she never claimed that she didn't torture people.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 13 novembre 2010 - 02:55 .

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 She does but I've always gotten the impression that she has tortured in the past although she'd "prefer" to use other methods since she never claimed that she didn't torture people.

Well I'd say that's pretty much saying she doesn't like to torture people but if she has too she would. So there is no enjoyment of torturing people with her.

Actually I'm looking in the toolset and she says "She did what she had to do." its very cold and matter of fact. I'm getting the sense that she didn't enjoy it.

Yup a few lines later we get this gem: "I don't like hurting others and even back in Orlais, I would try to use non-violent means to achieve my ends."

And this: "Some bards rely on torture to get what they want. It works effectively, as many will bend under the threat of bodily harm."

VO Notes: Talks like this is normal, like going to the store. Which should cause people to think "What the hell?" since she's talking about torture.

She is rather cold and efficent. If her head was on her shoulders a bit more she's remind me of Miranda but as it is...

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 novembre 2010 - 03:10 .

[TJPags]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 She does but I've always gotten the impression that she has tortured in the past although she'd "prefer" to use other methods since she never claimed that she didn't torture people.

Well I'd say that's pretty much saying she doesn't like to torture people but if she has too she would. So there is no enjoyment of torturing people with her.

Actually I'm looking in the toolset and she says "She did what she had to do." its very cold and matter of fact. I'm getting the sense that she didn't enjoy it.

Yup a few lines later we get this gem: "I don't like hurting others and even back in Orlais, I would try to use non-violent means to achieve my ends."

And this: "Some bards rely on torture to get what they want. It works effectively, as many will bend under the threat of bodily harm."

VO Notes: Talks like this is normal, like going to the store. Which should cause people to think "What the hell?" since she's talking about torture.

She is rather cold and efficent. If her head was on her shoulders a bit more she's remind me of Miranda but as it is...

When talking about something in the abstract, it's easy to be detached.  And some people do feel that torture is an effective means of interrogation.  I do.

Now, would I want to be tortured?  Hell no.  Would I want to torture someone?  Probably not.   Do I still think it's effective?  Yup.

I don't see a contradiction in that, so I don't see a contradiction in her saying those things.  Now, if she said she enjoyed doing it, but thought it was wrong or ineffective, THAT would bother me.

[Ryzaki]

TJPags wrote...


When talking about something in the abstract, it's easy to be detached.  And some people do feel that torture is an effective means of interrogation.  I do.

Now, would I want to be tortured?  Hell no.  Would I want to torture someone?  Probably not.   Do I still think it's effective?  Yup.

I don't see a contradiction in that, so I don't see a contradiction in her saying those things.  Now, if she said she enjoyed doing it, but thought it was wrong or ineffective, THAT would bother me.

I never thought torture to be effective. (Then again I grew up with extreme liar siblings who would lie and lie no matter how much hurt and pressure I put on them the snakes). So for her to see it as such makes her character not really inclined to be more than a friend to my PCs.

She enjoys manipulating people. I'd say that's a pretty damning mark on her character. Now I like the woman but she has some extreme flaws. She's extremely manipulative and too quick to let others make her decisions for her (as well as being weak willed enough to off herself because the Warden dies) . I like her *inspite* of those flaws.

...Though I don't think my PCs will romance her anymore it seems to resemble "the game" Leliana plays too much.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 novembre 2010 - 03:42 .

[ejoslin]

Leliana didn't enjoy torturing people, and far preferred using sex and manipulation to get the information she needed, and only murdered and tortured when she had to -- but this was a life she went into willingly as well. Even Zevran wouldn't agree with her that they had much in common until she said she at least TRIED to give her marks a clean kill.

Bards do some really heinous things...

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 novembre 2010 - 03:43 .

[Ryzaki]

I thought she became a bard because lady cecile had practically molded her into one? That's not much of a choice.

Then again she did choose to go to Marjoline...I wonder how job prospects are in Orlais for someone who had Lelian's skills. I doubt she learned how to fight until she was actually a bard.

Uh...no one in that game is innocent of fault. (Well maybe the PC might be) but they've all done some pretty terrible things. (or expressed the willingness too).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 novembre 2010 - 03:52 .

[Wulfram]

Which is why she is so big on redemption

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

I thought she became a bard because lady cecile had practically molded her into one? That's not much of a choice.

We know that Lady Cecile taught her how to play an instrument and sing, yes, but it's never outright said that she expected her to be a bard. You can interpret Leliana's upbringing as Lady Cecile seeing the opportunity to turn the child of her dead servant into her own personal bard in exchange for raising her but it's not like she couldn't have taken her talents and just been the travelling minstrel she claimed to be.

[ejoslin]

She was not a slave -- she was a woman in love. BIG difference.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

She was not a slave -- she was a woman in love. BIG difference.

Ah true but one could say she was a slave to love. :innocent: 

Though yes I see your point.

Though that doesn't change the fact that they *all* could've avoided killing people they just didn't.

We know that Lady Cecile taught her how to play an instrument and sing,
yes, but it's never outright said that she expected her to be a bard.
You can interpret Leliana's upbringing as Lady Cecile seeing the
opportunity to turn the child of her dead servant into her own
personal bard in exchange for raising her but it's not like she couldn't
have taken her talents and just been the travelling minstrel she
claimed to be.

True it isn't. Leliana could've chosen to be an actual minstrel she went into the bard order of her own will. But I wonder if she knew everything that would occur? Before she fell in love with Marjorline anyways people will do some scary things for love.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 novembre 2010 - 04:00 .

[Wulfram]

Leliana says it was Marjolaine who taught her the bardic arts, not Cecile. I don't think we know how they met - though I think Leliana must have been pretty young when they did.

[Ryzaki]

Wulfram wrote...

Leliana says it was Marjolaine who taught her the bardic arts, not Cecile. I don't think we know how they met - though I think Leliana must have been pretty young when they did.

Ick.

...Please tell me she was at least 16.


How old is Marjoline anyways?

And one of these days I'm going to have a run with just my PC, dog and (forced) Alistair.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 novembre 2010 - 04:01 .

[Wulfram]

Ryzaki wrote...

How old is Marjoline anyways?

Old enough to have supposedly retired after inheriting her dead husbands wealth

[Sarah1281]

Do bards necessarily have to have long careers, though? And if she started young she could be, say, 25 when she retired and still have had plenty of time to build up her skills and reputation. Besides, being a 'retired' bard would be a lot more convenient than being an active one.

[ejoslin]

Toolset has Marjolaine as 37, though toolset ages are not always accurate.

Edit: For contrast, toolset has Leliana's age at 26.  

Alistair is the only companion's whose age was confirmed to be incorrect.

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 novembre 2010 - 04:19 .