124 réponses à ce sujet

[Burningwolf]

Harbinger DID try to assume control of Shepard.Liara is the one who Matrix punched him though.



Liara had plot armor.Her hand couldnt be broken.

[Aurica]

Humanity is driven by conflicts. The only way we will ever be united is when something threatens our survival as a species. It will always be us vs them.

[Dean_the_Young]

ThunderSoul wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

ThunderSoul wrote...

My personal opinion is that I find people are usually on the extremes. Some hate humans and want them all gone. Some want humans to rule and enslave the rest. That's black and white. The world really is grey, and I like grey... some sort of balance... Humans to keep existing as equals in the galaxy to other species... That's my preferred standpoint... Not dead nor patriotic...

The desire for one's species/people group to advance in power is not unnatural. When all species are out for themselves and humans refuse to look out for their own interests, all of a sudden no one is looking out for human interests. Each species must take care of their own. That is how the world/universe has, does, and always will work.

I don't know... we can say that about humans... what other species does that? Just humans as far as I know... and we haven't met other races to be able to judge them relative to our attributes...

Monkies. Ants. Various pack species.

[Dean_the_Young]

ThunderSoul wrote...

it will equal the beauty of earth will live longer... i like that...

Any catastrophe that wipes most of humanity out is going to destroy the world's ecology far more than anything humans have ever done. It will not be pretty. The planet will not look nicer. And there's so much infrastructure around that blowing it up and taking the humans away would create it's own eco disasters with no one to fix.

Image if, right now,we blew up every oil tanker at sea, and every oil platform was left to cause the sort of disaster we saw in the gulf. And that's only two types of disasters.

[Dean_the_Young]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

Hell, I'd sign up to colonize Mars too fully aware I'd be buried on Mars. The fact is though, I'd be buried on freakin Mars! I would also LOVE to see a colony on mars, maybe, just maybe I'll be able to see that in my life time. If not I have no faith in the human race.

In the current consumer-driven Western culture, I don't see it happening. There is simply no financial benefit to sending a bunch of people too mars, and it would cost a ton of money. It's a damn shame imo.

Clearly we also didn't send a man to the moon, because there was no financial benefit. And no point of wiping out diseases like smallpox or rinderpest: you can make more money from therapies than cures. And wars: lord know we do them because they're profitable.

[Ieldra]

I'm a bit of a misanthrope myself, so for me the answer to the question "Does the human species deserve to survive?" is not a foregone conclusion. But I'm quite sure we don't deserve to be wiped out by some 50-million-year-old species of would-be techno-gods, and while the transformation into a collective mind, disregarding the methods, has a certain theoretical appeal for someone like me, who does indeed think that some kind of fundamental change in human nature might be necessary to survive, that kind of existence is altogether to impractical to seriously consider. Being an imposed fate doesn't make it more likeable. I'd rather imagine that humanity will experiment with different ways of changing itself through time. Should we ever leave our home system, I imagine that humanity will break-up into several sub-species, each with a separate vision of its future.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 novembre 2010 - 09:57 .

[CaptainZaysh]

You guys who are anti-wealth and pro-space exploration are just awesome. You got any idea how much space missions cost?

[Ieldra]

CaptainZaysh wrote...
You guys who are anti-wealth and pro-space exploration are just awesome. You got any idea how much space missions cost?

No one was anti-wealth. The complaint was about public opinion being against more space exploration because the money would be better spent elsewhere, for instance for lowering taxes. I hate that mindset.

[Nightwriter]

The title of this thread is hilarious.

[adam_grif]

Oh GOODIE, it's THIS THREAD again.

applehug wrote...

Am I the only one who was rooting for the collectors?

No, there are plenty of other people who just like you irrationally loathe their own species based on hasty generalizations and inconsistent ethics.

MuteSpeech wrote...

See, I can see the point to this though. Eventually we'll run out of
resources in the galaxy. Whether it takes a few hundred thousand years,
or it only takes a few thousand years, eventually there'd be just no
more room for life; it'd be a galactic-scale repeat of the drell's
situation.

Reapers truly ARE the galaxy's salvation by destruction.

That isn't salvation by any metric. Making resources "last longer" by killing everybody who would use them does not help the problem at all, rather it makes it worse because the constant warring will increase the wastage of materials. Maximum Entropy is so far away that it's not even worth worrying about (billions of trillions of years).

"Saving" people from running out of resources by killing them is self defeating and idiotic. If the reason you want to save the resources is so people can live longer, but you achieve the goal by killing the people, then you are ethically worse than you started out. Running out of resources isn't as bad as extinction.

The Reaper Line about "salvation through destruction" is so obviously about the reapers slaughtering billions of people to build more reapers that it isn't funny. Even then it's only "salvation" by their own stupid logic.

ThunderSoul wrote...

Why is it complete bull? Please elaborate and provide support to
your claim... otherwise it will be cast aside as just an opinion rather
than a scientific argument with weight and merit...

First of all, you haven't provided any evidence or support for those claims, it's just a random quote from Agent Smith. He certainly didn't! Entirely anecdotal. He's the one making the stupid claim, so the burden of proof is on him, not those wishing to reject it.

Secondly, multiplying until there aren't enough resources to go around is what every animal does. The lack of resources then results in animals starving until there is the right number of animals for those resources:



Basic demography mofo, do you speak it?

Animals that exploited their resources such that they ran out entirely (i.e. ate all of the prey and there were none left) are all dead because they had no more food left. If what Agent Smith was saying was true, and we were just exploiting all the resources until they ran out, then that's what would happen to us eventually too. The only difference is that we are in the process of going extinct (if that's the case), but have not got there yet.

Ergo, Agent Smith is an idiot who irrationally hates human.

Ieldra2 wrote...

and while the transformation into a collective mind, disregarding the
methods, has a certain theoretical appeal for someone like me, who does
indeed think that some kind of fundamental change in human nature might
be necessary to survive, that kind of existence is altogether to
impractical to seriously consider

Obviously, "you" don't survive when you become a reaper, because all of the reapers work WITH the reapers instead of just rebelling against the others as soon as it comes online to get revenge for wiping out their whole species.

The brain is liquified, the information is destroyed, "hive mind uploading" nonsesnse isn't happening. I'm not sure what started that meme, but it's wrong.

No one was anti-wealth. The complaint was about public opinion being
against more space exploration because the money would be better spent
elsewhere, for instance for lowering taxes. I hate that mindset.

Space travel is an esoteric pursuit that produces no obvious returns on investment. Any and all benefits are hard to define or quantify (vague things like "well it advanced our technology!") and pretty pictures of other planets aren't very exciting after the first 20 times.

Compare this with the real suffering of the poor, the homeless, the sick who can't afford their medical bills. Can you understand that, at least? Here's quote from Eisenhower:

“Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired
signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not
fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.”

Modifié par adam_grif, 09 novembre 2010 - 12:04 .

[AntiChri5]

adam, your post is at least 12, possibly even 15 different kinds of awesome.

AntiChri5 approves + 20

[Ieldra]

adam_grif wrote...
The brain is liquified, the information is destroyed, "hive mind uploading" nonsesnse isn't happening. I'm not sure what started that meme, but it's wrong.

That meme started because the explanation that the Reapers need only the genetic material of millions of humans to make their human Reaper makes no sense at all. They could've had that a lot easier.

“Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.”

Yeah, I've heard all that a thousand times before, which is why I react a bit cynically despite being in tacit agreement. The only problem is that space exploration and weapons aren't identical, so that analogy fails. Also, the original complaint was about the rich developed nations, who in fact, do have enough collective wealth to give everyone a reasonable lifestyle (if they bothered about a less grossly inequal distribution) *and* invest in space exploration.  

[adam_grif]

That meme started because the explanation that the Reapers need only the genetic material of millions of humans to make their human Reaper makes no sense at all. They could've had that a lot easier.

I think we can all agree here that the Reaper's motivations are unsalvageably idiotic as a whole, in addition to their reactions to changing events.



The apparent excuse for the genetic material rubbish is that they are allegedly "absorbing the essence" of a species. RIGHTO BIOWARE. WHATEVER YOU SAY SIR. Because vitalism is just what I want out of my science fiction!



Like I said, the idea that it's absorbing everybody's minds is essentially unsound. There's no reason for it. If some kind of central reaper mind is deciding what to do anyway then it doesn't really get anything out of bringing them along for the ride.



We see in ME2 that their genetics is apparently the important thing. Harbinger dismisses the Asari as being inferior because they are reliant on other species to breed, the Salarians as having too "fragile" a genetic code, the Turians as being "too primitive". Even if you make the blanket assersion that Turian minds are too primitive (no real evidence to suggest this but...), the Salarians and Asari would still make perfectly fine candidates for reaper upload. Arguably, the Asari should be the best because they have hundreds of years of experience under their belts in most cases!



EDI was the result of studying Reapers, which implies that their central intelligence is indeed an A.I. or collection of A.I.s. What we see in-universe is not consistent with what we should expect to see if mind-uploading was what they needed it for. They are turning people into paste and directly using their melted down bodies as a construction material, of all things...

The only problem is that space exploration and weapons aren't identical, so that analogy fails.

Whatever the expenditure, the principle remains the same. It's something that takes up significant resources and man-hours, even on the scale of wealthy nation-states. Wealth that could be spent elsewhere.

Also, the original complaint was about the rich developed nations, who in fact, do have enough collective wealth to give everyone a reasonable lifestyle (if they bothered about a less grossly inequal distribution) *and* invest in space exploration.

As you say, income is not distributed equally. I don't think it should be, but there ought to be a minimum standard of living that everybody gets. No homeless, no starving, etc. Not just in the first world, but globally. It's not quite right to say that the rich countries have nothing to spend the money on when there's 3 billion poor people who don't live in rich countries, whose governments simply cannot afford to feed and clothe and house them all. Space exploration should be an afterthought, with ensuring the welfare of all people being the priority.



This is the argument not just against space travel, but all non-essential spending (incl. ongoing wars etc).

[Nightwriter]

Isn't the whole space funding thing a little off topic? 

Anyhoo. Basically, life = good, death = bad. Anyone whose mind operates outside this system of thought is probably beyond my ability to deal with or help. I am a person of limited intelligence here, yet I somehow am able to scounge enough neurons together to comprehend that the complete destruction of the human race is not in my best interest.

[Computer_God91]

adam_grif wrote...
[insert posts here]

Did you miss my post about how we are a rock or a missle away from extinction? Because I think that is the biggest return from space travel and colonizing other worlds, we wont go extinct if one planet is utterly destroyed because we would have another world with humans on it. Personal wealth is meaningless when you face complete annihilation. Money should not be the issue if you are ten seconds away from extinction and the only way to save yourself is to spend a little green on making something that will save you or your species. nobody would say to you if you held a gun to there face "It'll cost to much money to stop you." unless they truly wanted to die.

[Ieldra]

@adam_grif:
This is going too far into politics for a thread like this. Let's say I don't agree with you, though it's mostly for practical reasons, and let's keep it at that.

I do agree about the Reaper's apparent motivations and the "science" behind it being complete nonsense. I hope for a retcon.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 novembre 2010 - 02:13 .

[Eski.Moe]

Well, in the most succinct way I can put it. Yes.
I seriously worry about some people though.

Modifié par Eski.Moe, 09 novembre 2010 - 02:17 .

[CaptainZaysh]

adam_grif wrote...
As you say, income is not distributed equally. I don't think it should be, but there ought to be a minimum standard of living that everybody gets. No homeless, no starving, etc. Not just in the first world, but globally. It's not quite right to say that the rich countries have nothing to spend the money on when there's 3 billion poor people who don't live in rich countries, whose governments simply cannot afford to feed and clothe and house them all. Space exploration should be an afterthought, with ensuring the welfare of all people being the priority.

This is the argument not just against space travel, but all non-essential spending (incl. ongoing wars etc).

If you divide the USA's entire GDP across the whole planet everybody gets $2215 each.  Good luck making sure nobody is homeless or starving with that.

EDITED for appalling maths

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 09 novembre 2010 - 02:19 .

[ScooterPie88]

Edit:
Thought I would make a point decided feeding the troll wasn't worth it..

Modifié par ScooterPie88, 09 novembre 2010 - 02:21 .

[Nightwriter]

Eski.Moe wrote...

Well, in the most succinct way I can put it. Yes.
I seriously worry about some people though.

You know, it would be interesting to encounter a Reaper cult in ME3 - a band of crazy ass humans who actually supported the Reaper invasion, like some nuts on these forums do.

It begs the question... these people are part of humanity, aren't they? You're fighting to save them too, aren't you? So should you waste time saving someone who doesn't want to be saved? Would you let a colony of Reaper cultists/zealots get sacrificed to save a colony of humans who wanted to live? I think I totally would.

[FuturePasTimeCE]

it'd be the quarians fault for making the geth, and the humans fault for being so stupid... caring about one GETH (legion).

[Nightwriter]

Your posts always enrich my life so, Future.

[Marzillius]

applehug wrote...

Am I the only one who was rooting for the collectors?

I was, humans are extremely destructive. Watch the documentary Home and you will see, it can be seen for free on YouTube (the makers of it had uploaded it, so it's not pirated or anything).

[Dean_the_Young]

By comparison, the Reapers are ecological-



What? Razing planets? Burning off the atmosphere? Complete ecological genocide?

[FuturePasTimeCE]

Nightwriter wrote...

Your posts always enrich my life so, Future.

 i'm a non-spamming troll... i make most of my posts out of boredom, not being serious most of time.

except about commander shepard being betrayed by his own crew and aliens.<_<

Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 09 novembre 2010 - 03:32 .