117 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Hardly all of them. I can think of at least one base that is uncovered.

Bases: The most important or necessary part of something

Trivial Detail: Female, elven romancable follower for PC dalish elves who refuse to romance any other species.

[xODD7BALLx]

Luekas wrote...

That's really naive, you don't love someone just because you have sex with them, they are two separate things. Really, if you are not already in love than sex is pretty much meaningless, except for feeling good I guess.

 It just doesn't work that way, and trying to pretend that it does is just delusional.

call me a typical guy if you like, assume if you must, but though sex isnt like the key factor in a successful relationship, I dont think I could stay in a relationship or develop an undenying love for someone if the sex was sub-par, I'm not shallow I just dont think anyone should settle so, why put all the time and effort into something that will have a part of it lacking in the bedroom or shower or pool table ect lol

[Maria Caliban]

Luekas wrote...

That's really naive, you don't love someone just because you have sex with them, they are two separate things. Really, if you are not already in love than sex is pretty much meaningless, except for feeling good I guess.

 It just doesn't work that way, and trying to pretend that it does is just delusional.

Sex is not love *for you.* Having sex isn't emotionally intimate and intense *for you.*

Have fun RPing that if you wish. Thankfully, BioWare has given me what I find to be a much more satisfying option.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Hardly all of them. I can think of at least one base that is uncovered.

Bases: The most important or necessary part of something

Trivial Detail: Female, elven romancable follower for PC dalish elves who refuse to romance any other species.

Oh, please. Don't try to derail the thread. You know it's inevitable that I'm going to bite on that.

It's hardly a trivial detail and hardly as specific as you make it out to be.
Let's say that archdemons were spawned from dwarves and humans mating, instead of the current established lore. Now imagine that the game only offered romancable dwarves. "Love can bloom"? Yeah, right.

Sorta an extreme example, but anything to get the point across.

Maria Caliban wrote...
[...]

Have fun RPing that if you wish. Thankfully, BioWare has given me what I find to be a much more satisfying option.

But not those of us that want to RP elven convention. I'm happy that you're happy, but understand that not all of us are, and at least try to understand why.

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 26 octobre 2009 - 06:36 .

[Maria Caliban]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

It's hardly a trivial detail and hardly as specific as you make it out to be.
Let's say that archdemons were spawned from dwarves and humans mating, instead of the current established lore. Now imagine that the game only offered romancable dwarves. "Love can bloom"? Yeah, right.

Sorta an extreme example, but anything to get the point across.

Let's pretend wild hippopotamuses roamed the earth, devouring all the milk maids and little boy blue was the only one that could save us, but he was trapped beneath a pile of dwarven gold. Now imagine the game only allowed you to romance nugs and female pandas.

Your desire for a female elven romance would still not be one of the ‘bases.’

[JEBesh]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

It's hardly a trivial detail and hardly as specific as you make it out to be.
Let's say that archdemons were spawned from dwarves and humans mating, instead of the current established lore. Now imagine that the game only offered romancable dwarves. "Love can bloom"? Yeah, right.

Sorta an extreme example, but anything to get the point across.

Let's pretend wild hippopotamuses roamed the earth, devouring all the milk maids and little boy blue was the only one that could save us, but he was trapped beneath a pile of dwarven gold. Now imagine the game only allowed you to romance nugs and female pandas.

Your desire for a female elven romance would still not be one of the ‘bases.’

For the record, Maria; if it wasn't for my penis, I would have sex with you.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

It's hardly a trivial detail and hardly as specific as you make it out to be.
Let's say that archdemons were spawned from dwarves and humans mating, instead of the current established lore. Now imagine that the game only offered romancable dwarves. "Love can bloom"? Yeah, right.

Sorta an extreme example, but anything to get the point across.

Let's pretend wild hippopotamuses roamed the earth, devouring all the milk maids and little boy blue was the only one that could save us, but he was trapped beneath a pile of dwarven gold. Now imagine the game only allowed you to romance nugs and female pandas.

Your desire for a female elven romance would still not be one of the ‘bases.’

I will not be trolled by intellectual dwarves.
I will not be trolled by intellectual dwarves.
I will not be trolled by intellectual dwarves.
I will not be trolled by intellectual dwarves.
I will not be trolled by intellectual dwarves.
*deep breaths*

Pheeeeeew. Puu-aah.
No offense to actual dwarves.

[Luekas]

****, this is like trying to describe a painting to a blind person.

[xODD7BALLx]

Luekas wrote...

****, this is like trying to describe a painting to a blind person.

Calm down, just because someone on the "internet" doesn't  get or relate to the way you feel about boinking doesn't mean you cant still feel the way you do. I mean usually when someone says love is more important than sex they usually arent....... well none of my business man. j/k

[gethsemani87]

I can buy the "Roleplaying" aspect of the romances in game. But perhaps I am the only one who feels that "roleplaying" in a singleplayer RPG is quite pointless. You are confined to a few choices of dialogue (if you are lucky, you might get a consistent 6-7 alternatives), a few choices of NPCs and even fewer choices for romance. You can't make exactly the character you want, because no matter how you spin it, in the end you have to follow the mold set by Bioware. If they do good, you won't think much of the dialogue options. But if they screw up... Then you'll be sitting there and thinking "My character wouldn't say any of this!" At which point you might aswell say: "Good Game Immersion".



Now this problem travels on to the romances, as I touched upon earlier in this post. How can they not be thought of as "winning"? By making the right choices in various dialogues (and potentially sidequests) you get to see a short clip of your PC and a NPC getting it on. Chances are, as the OP fears, that there will be nothing after that but a few toss away lines here and there to indiciate the newfound love between "The Warden" and Alistair. Basically, you get a cutscene reward for completing the Romance-sidequest.



Am I being too harsh? Maybe. But I can't help myself, I consider Dragon Age a game. Not a medium for me to live out my roleplaying ideas, because it is simply too confined and streamlined for that. Let me clarify that I am not looking to bash those that will delve deep into the Roleplaying potential offered by Dragon Age.



I just want to point out that there are those of us who will actually *play* Dragon Age, not *roleplay* Dragon Age. And for us, the Romances might seem a bit tacked on if they go in the style of Mass Effect/Jade Empire (ie. finishes up just before the endgame) or doesn't offer any real sense of "love" after the cutscene. If it does that, it is just another sidequest, with a slightly diffrent kind of reward.

[xODD7BALLx]

So roleplaying in an MMO has a point? lol I'd hate to see two shut-ins playing WoW or Dark Age together while "romancing" each other. I think this topic is going too far honestly, I just like the gaps being crossed by game devs making games as mature as R rated movies, not like the people who grew up with gaming arent still playing in their 30s.

[gethsemani87]

Operative84 wrote...

So roleplaying in an MMO has a point? lol I'd hate to see two shut-ins playing WoW or Dark Age together while "romancing" each other. I think this topic is going too far honestly, I just like the gaps being crossed by game devs making games as mature as R rated movies, not like the people who grew up with gaming arent still playing in their 30s.

A point? Perhaps not. But it is a far better medium to do it in. If only because you are not confined to pre-defined choices and whoever you rp with won't go with pre-defined choices either. It makes the playing field larger so to speak. We could drag it even further and ask what the point is with roleplaying in a pen and paper enviroment...

I personally believe that roleplaying happens through interaction. And no interaction can ever be as good as that between people. That is why I think DA:O for me is a sub-par roleplaying enviroment whereas MMOs at least are decent and pen and paper/LARP is where it can really shine.

[hexaligned]

Well everything in the game is meaningless, other than entertainment value..so it depends on if you find "romancing" NPC's entertaining I guess. I was under the impression the higher your influence with a char the better bonuses they get. Seems to me you would get influence points for talking to and progressing relationships with those characters, If thats the case it would stand to reason that taking those relationships to the end of the script would max your influence..and get you the best bonuses.



But Ldyshana says otherwise and I trust him/her to know more about the actual game mechanics than I do.

[xODD7BALLx]

gethsemani87 wrote...

Operative84 wrote...

So roleplaying in an MMO has a point? lol I'd hate to see two shut-ins playing WoW or Dark Age together while "romancing" each other. I think this topic is going too far honestly, I just like the gaps being crossed by game devs making games as mature as R rated movies, not like the people who grew up with gaming arent still playing in their 30s.

A point? Perhaps not. But it is a far better medium to do it in. If only because you are not confined to pre-defined choices and whoever you rp with won't go with pre-defined choices either. It makes the playing field larger so to speak. We could drag it even further and ask what the point is with roleplaying in a pen and paper enviroment...

I personally believe that roleplaying happens through interaction. And no interaction can ever be as good as that between people. That is why I think DA:O for me is a sub-par roleplaying enviroment whereas MMOs at least are decent and pen and paper/LARP is where it can really shine.

Ok I get what you're saying now, you have to forgive me, I've a different point of view on RPG games like KOTOR, Jade, Mass Effect and DA: O, I view them more as interactive movies, whereas there's a main plot and variables that you can change and turn the tide so to speak. I've played MMO's before but I never got into the whole die hard all out "Role-Play" activity, I understand the concept of pen and paper, I've always looked at it as a way to let your imagination flow with others, I'm much to not private but what's the word, hell I dont know, I just never tried it so I'm in no way knockin it.

But I understand your views on the subject. I just never felt compelled to or immersed myself to that point.

[Mordaedil]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

But not those of us that want to RP elven convention. I'm happy that you're happy, but understand that not all of us are, and at least try to understand why.

What, Zevran isn't enough for you?

Then again, I'd roleplay my dalish elf as an asexual elitist ****, so I guess that's how my base is covered.

[Mordaedil]

gethsemani87 wrote...

I can buy the "Roleplaying" aspect of the romances in game. But perhaps I am the only one who feels that "roleplaying" in a singleplayer RPG is quite pointless. You are confined to a few choices of dialogue (if you are lucky, you might get a consistent 6-7 alternatives), a few choices of NPCs and even fewer choices for romance. You can't make exactly the character you want, because no matter how you spin it, in the end you have to follow the mold set by Bioware. If they do good, you won't think much of the dialogue options. But if they screw up... Then you'll be sitting there and thinking "My character wouldn't say any of this!" At which point you might aswell say: "Good Game Immersion".

Well yes. I've been a roleplayer since Neverwinter Nights came out, roleplaying a wide variety of roles since that time. While I feel your argument has merrit to it, I don't think it's something to accuse BioWare of. They do it pretty well all the time, ever since I started playing their games. The only exception is Mass Effect where they kinda threw roleplay out the window for "cinematic experiences".

Their other games really serve as a good guidance on how varied your experience can be. Sure, you only get a 6-7 alternative every time you get to interject, but in all honesty, even when roleplaying with people, you usually don't even get that many options.

Disagree if you wish on this, but there have been games where you really can fault the choices, because unlike how these games treat you, a lot of times in roleplaying you will end up in situations where one or more players undertakes god-modding and you can't defend yourself against it and it ruins everything.

In a single player game, only you are the star, and if you imagine it well enough, it shouldn't be a problem with roleplaying.

Also, roleplaying need not be interactive activity. Sometimes you do it on your own and it can be applied in situations where you're not entertaining anyone else. <_< Just because you don't make a habit of doing it...

[Hex of Hell]

Luekas wrote...

I have to say I have never felt more "connected" to someone after ****ing them . I hate to break this to you, but having sex with someone doesn't magically make you love them and want to be close to them, that kind of relationship takes years. 

Actually, there are a few chemicals released in mammalian brains during sexual intercourse which among other things, help to facilitate pair bonding. They make people feel good and want to be close to each other. It causes people to form something like an addiction their mate. There are valid biological reasons for the notion that sex and intimacy are interconnected.

When I'm gaming, I personally find it hard to roleplay a romance and find it believable if there is nothing sexual, even if it's only hinted at, to it at all. Sex and intimacy are related that way. It just wouldn't seem believable, and would feel like hitting a brick wall in the development of the relationship. However, when in some games after the event, the other person doesn't even aknowledge you or make eye contact with you, that doesn't really have the feel of intimacy either. Just the opposite. To have all of this great development of the relationship, getting to know them, spending time with them... and it culminates essentially with a hump-and-dump. You never speak of it again and from that point forward are just friends...horribly awkward friends... 

gethsemani87 wrote...

I personally believe that roleplaying happens through interaction. And no interaction can ever be as good as that between people.

I still consider games like DA:O to be an interaction between people. It's an interaction between myself and Bioware, and the characters we both have made.  But perfectly good roleplaying can occurr even inside the confines of your own head, which no one need ever see or know about. It doesn't require interaction at all.

Modifié par Captain Hex, 26 octobre 2009 - 08:11 .

[gethsemani87]

I am not faulting Bioware at all Mordaedil, if anything it is my imagination that is at fault. I love Biowares games, that is why I am here, 10 days before release, on a forum dedicated to one of their games.

I however, tend to take the stance that single player RPGs are more of a cinematic experience for me. I get to choose what the protagonist does, but the protagonist is not entirely whom I choose it to be. I get a set of choices when I create the protagonist and from there, I mold it into what could resemble a roleplaying character. Basically, I would say I am co-writing the protagonist with Bioware.



Bioware is doing the best they can with a medium that isn't inherently suited to what they want to do with it. Or rather, what I want from a "true" Roleplaying experience is something that a single player CRPG can't deliver and thus I content myself with the fact that it at least is one **** of a story I get to playthrough. But I never believe it to be anything else than that, me playing a game. There's no deep thought put into my characters actions or emotions (at least not to the same degree as in LARP, forum or P&P rpg) and that means Bioware has to strive harder to make the roleplaying elements worthwhile for me.

[Ekardt]

JEBesh wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...


And dwarven sexuality.

You are not prepared.

Interesting fact for the cloudheads: Dwarves have their anus in the front and there genitals betwixt their buttcheeks.

Picture how that works for a minute.

[Draconus Kahn]

At first, I was inclined to agree with the original poster on his opinion to make romance in game useful on a more practical level. But, after reading posts and pondering on my own thoughts, I have come to the conclusion BioWare does it right.

My reasoning is thus: Making romances just another part of the story enables personal choice rather than forcing the player to romance just for practicality's sake. Besides, can you really see your evil character romancing the good one for that killer buff? It would completely conflict with his archetype right? Unless, of course he was just in it for the sex lol.

Modifié par Draconus Kahn, 26 octobre 2009 - 08:32 .

[Draconus Kahn]

Another thing, please don't say we need pregnancy in this game...

Fable II's kids were annoying after the 5th one my character helped make. They don't ever shutup, they're never satisfied, and they're always in the way when you just want to get a present from your wife! (Note to self: don't have kids in real life either)

[minamber]

To me Bioware romances were always an interesting way to learn more about a character. Sure, they weren't perfect, but they certainly didn't need an artificial in-game reward, since learning more about Viconia's reasons for leaving the Underdark, for instance, was enough of a reward for me.



Interesting interactions with NPCs is one of the reasons I play RPGs like DA, and romances were always the ultimate interaction, since friendship paths were often lacking. Sex *should* feel like a natural part of the romance, thouth it's often badly done by making it the end and "reward" of the romance. I hope they haven't done that in this game, but there are always the friendship paths if they haven't.

[Nighteye2]

Maria Caliban wrote...

For those interested in RPing a PC for whom sex is emotionally akin to blowing their nose, there's the brothel. For those who want a meaningful experience, there are the follower romances. For those who aren’t interested in any of the above, the content is all optional.

BioWare has covered all the bases.

Yes, it's even possible to have a platonic romance with your followers, if you so desire. It doesn't end the romance if you politely refuse to have sex with them.

[Midvin]

There seem to be a lot of assumptions in the original post.

First, intimacy doesn't always equate to sex, both in a game and in real life. From Baldur's Gate through Neverwinter Nights 2, sex was never implicit, although it was occasionally implied.  It was only with Mass Effect and its brief and stylized imagery that we could be sure.

Second, a perfect example of a negative effect when the protagonist and a NPC become involved is if you have Aerie and Jaheira in the party and you're romancing them both in Baldur's Gate II.  Funny, because I've been replaying BG2 and this just happened to me. I sided with Aerie and Jaheira left the party.

Finally, the romances are, at their most basic level, character interaction between a NPC and the protagonist. They're no different than any other interactions in any other Bioware game in that they aren't meant to do anything more than enrich the story.

This is something that comes up in my Pen-and-Paper groups all the time. There's this weird dichotomy between role-playing (character interaction and playing a role) and "roll-playing" focusing more and how high you can get your stats or how uber you are or whatever. Not everything should give you a bonus. If it does, that's nice, but it shouldn't be required, particualrly in a RPG.

[soteria]

For what it's worth, Luekas, I do know a number of people who would agree with you that sex is just sex. I don't.