75 réponses à ce sujet

[lazuli]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I think instead of mandatory, or guaranteed checks for living/dying they should have put it up to chance.
Got someones loyaty? Push it to say 60/40
Got upgrades for their weapons? Add some points to each.

Instead of for sure things there should have been random checks with a chance for failure that start to claim people's live in the end.

Respectfully, this is a terrible idea.  If you want a perfect playthrough, you would just have to reload until it happens.

I would prefer completely scripted deaths.  No matter what, X character dies.  To give players more choice, they could have emulated Virmire.  I would have been fine with that appearing again.  I hope that in ME3 there are scripted deaths.  I want to see the squadmates I have grown to love die in tragically heroic ways.

[Ragnarok521]

Midnight_Thirty wrote...

Why not make it much more difficult to obtain their loyalty?

Give us very difficult choices during their loyalty mission that can effect loyalty, and more Miranda vs. Jack type situations. You could even bring in multiple decisions during each mission that would kind of create a "tiered loyalty" system. The more loyal the person, the more likely they would survive the "checks" in the suicide mission.

Honestly though, the first two times I played through the suicide mission I lost a person. I also lost the entire crew because I was off doing other missions just to make sure I completed everything before the end. I really think they did a good job of making it difficult to come out clean the first playthrough.

The suicide mission is much easier with hindsight, so I suggest everyone think back to their first playthrough before saying that "Virmire was much more of a suicide mission than the actual SM"

The influence system of KOTOR II comes to mind.

[esigma444]

I agree with Moiaussi. I have no problem with making it so everyone can survive. The whole reason it is called a "Suicide Mission" is because they know nothing about the enemy. In fact they don't even know who the enemy is, just theories. Then you find out it is the Collectors, a super advanced race, who happen to be the only ones who can travel through the Omega 4 Relay. Finally learning that it is easy to assume you are not going to survive being as no one has ever return from the Omega 4 Relay.

[Stokely]

I hate it when games pull the "here comes the tragedy and you can't do ANYTHING about it" line on me. "It was impossible, but we did it" is much better and fulfilling when done right. It should have been harder, maybe, but having nobody left behind makes a nice conclusion to the game. Shepard has alredy lost people (a lot of them, in fact, on Ruthless/Sole survivor background)
And for darkness, despair and ultimate sacrifice we have Dragon Age.

Modifié par Stokely, 10 novembre 2010 - 05:32 .

[ScooterPie88]

I tend to agree Stokely. I know in the real world even if you do everything right people still get killed. But I play games to escape reality and live in a fictional world. I want to be rewarded for doing stuff right. I don't need a scripted death to make me care more about a story. If I'm playing a game more than once chances are it is because of the story more than the gameplay (most times) so I'm already engaged/connected to the story. I didn't mind it in ME1 because I just didn't like Kaiden that much so losing him wasn't a deal breaker for me. I'm not saying that I like every ME2 squadmate either (though the only one I don't really have a strong connection to is Jacob). I still want to get everyone out in one piece. They are my squad, they have stayed with me through thick and thin, I want to see them make it out and live out their lives.

[Lunatic LK47]

ScooterPie88 wrote...

I tend to agree Stokely. I know in the real world even if you do everything right people still get killed. But I play games to escape reality and live in a fictional world. I want to be rewarded for doing stuff right. I don't need a scripted death to make me care more about a story. If I'm playing a game more than once chances are it is because of the story more than the gameplay (most times) so I'm already engaged/connected to the story. I didn't mind it in ME1 because I just didn't like Kaiden that much so losing him wasn't a deal breaker for me. I'm not saying that I like every ME2 squadmate either (though the only one I don't really have a strong connection to is Jacob). I still want to get everyone out in one piece. They are my squad, they have stayed with me through thick and thin, I want to see them make it out and live out their lives.

This. 24 already pulled this crap to death too many times, especially for a franchise that went eight seasons, one mediocre game, and one mediocre TV movie. I'm already sick of it. It's times like these I actually prefer ME2 to almost everything else. Hell, I even hated Fallout 3 after I hit my 110th hour and having only stopped after Dad's death, and not having finished half the sidequests after looking at all of the missions I did so far.

[GodWood]

ScooterPie88 wrote...
I tend to agree Stokely. I know in the real world even if you do everything right people still get killed. But I play games to escape reality and live in a fictional world. I want to be rewarded for doing stuff right. I don't need a scripted death to make me care more about a story. If I'm playing a game more than once chances are it is because of the story more than the gameplay (most times) so I'm already engaged/connected to the story. I didn't mind it in ME1 because I just didn't like Kaiden that much so losing him wasn't a deal breaker for me. I'm not saying that I like every ME2 squadmate either (though the only one I don't really have a strong connection to is Jacob). I still want to get everyone out in one piece. They are my squad, they have stayed with me through thick and thin, I want to see them make it out and live out their lives.

All the more reason for some of them to have mandatory deaths.

[SDCrush]

Moiaussi wrote...

Obi wan died in Star Wars.. who EXACTLY died in Empire Strikes Back?

Gandalf seemed to die to the Balrog in Fellowship of the Ring.  Boromir dies at the start of The Two Towers, but
Gandalf returns, not dead after all. And Boromir's betrayal had happened in Fellowship rather than Two Towers as well.

I think you need to find better examples

Empire Strikes Back:
rebel base on Hoth destroyed
rebel forces thinned considerably
Lando - coerced to betray his friends.
Han - frozen in Carbonite.
Luke - loses a hand and is sunk in depression

Two Towers:
Boromir - dies
Sarumon - betrays humankind (could be argued he did so in Fellowship, but he never did anything more than hold Gandalf, so...)
Helm's Deep - yeah, they won.  How many died?  And not even fighting Sauron, either....
Frodo - poisoned, loses ring (to Sam), captured deep behind enemy lines

If you're looking strictly at main character death, you might not be finding much.  Keep in mind that a trilogy of books can afford to do things differently here; ending a video game, even the middle of a trilogy, on a depressing pseudo-cliffhanger like either of those books would cause riots.  End with a victory over Collectors/Harbinger, though, and it's just a story of triumph and perseverence and kittens and rainbows.  The whole atmosphere of this game is darker and grittier than ME1, obviously, but IMO the developers didn't go far enough.


On a more relevant note:

Big stupid jellyfish wrote

If I could re-make the suicide mission I guess I would've played with
loyalities more. At least that's the first thing that comes to my mind.

If there had been one major change I would have loved to see this.  It just makes so much sense.  I know it would have been a lot more work for scripting/implementing but it could have added so much.

Modifié par SDCrush, 10 novembre 2010 - 08:28 .

[RiouHotaru]

GodWood wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...
I tend to agree Stokely. I know in the real world even if you do everything right people still get killed. But I play games to escape reality and live in a fictional world. I want to be rewarded for doing stuff right. I don't need a scripted death to make me care more about a story. If I'm playing a game more than once chances are it is because of the story more than the gameplay (most times) so I'm already engaged/connected to the story. I didn't mind it in ME1 because I just didn't like Kaiden that much so losing him wasn't a deal breaker for me. I'm not saying that I like every ME2 squadmate either (though the only one I don't really have a strong connection to is Jacob). I still want to get everyone out in one piece. They are my squad, they have stayed with me through thick and thin, I want to see them make it out and live out their lives.

All the more reason for some of them to have mandatory deaths.

Except that, if squadmates are handled in ME3 in a manner that some folks have predicted, then their mandatory deaths were a complete waste, whose only real purpose was to remove whatever content could be associated with them to make room for new squaddies.

Which is pointless.

[Stokely]

Plot-wise, I think character deaths in a middle of a trilogy work well in two cases:

- As a natural result of them losing their motivation/hope/will to fight - like, when Tali gets depressed about you destroying the name of her father or when Jack sees that you don't care about her problems and won't help her. That's what loyalty missions are for.
- As an accident or the result of your own mistakes. Suddenly, you squadmate gets impaled or hit by a rocket or carried away by the seeker swarms - just because not everything went perfect. Well, sometimes it happens.

Such deaths are pretty much possible and you are welcome to make them happen, If you feel that they will make your experience more meaningful, or something like that. As for overly-dramatic, absolutely inevitable and maybe actually deep and meaningful deaths, I just don't think that the second part is a good place for them. It's in the middle of a game, you know that your fight is not over yet, and most of these characters was only recently introduced to the plot. Such things simply look better in the very beginning (to show you that the things are actually getting serious) or in the very end (as a part of an epic conclusion). Still, I would like to keep my squad alive against the impossible odds in ME3 as well. It's not like these series were realistic in the first place.

Modifié par Stokely, 10 novembre 2010 - 11:02 .

[Jenova65]

See, I actually like it the way it is, we are talking about Shepard, the person chosen because they beat impossible odds and defy the concept of suicide mission. Losing Ashley still haunts me as a gamer, it was an amazing moment the first time I played Mass Effect and I had to put my controller down for a minute to compose myself, it made me genuinely sad and made me cry. I still leave her behind every time as a Kaidan fan, but I really like her and it is never easy, it is always hanging over me as Virmire looms... To be honest, I would have preferred the opportunity to leave another squad mate behind who I wasn't bothered about (will remain nameless as I do not wish to be lynched) but BioWare made us make this choice and it hurt but it is a great moment in gaming as is the first time you do the suicide run. You are never ever going to recreate what something felt like the first time, but you still have the memory of how moving it was every time you replay it.
If you want to lose squad mates or you want to to not be sure you can get them all out alive it is easy just to not do, say 3 or 4 loyalty missions and then see if you can still get them all out. You can tinker with your choices each time you play, changing which people you do not gain loyalty with to see how it affects things. I watched someone on a first play do the suicide run with a couple of unloyal people and it was nerve shattering waiting to see if they made it through based on 'Shepard's', choices. So given that the suicide run is easy to manipulate either way, I see no reason to put in either mandatory deaths OR tougher decisions because it is a game, an escape, there is enough tragedy in real life, I want to be a hero in the game, a super woman, an unstoppable force. In real life we're helpless in most life and death situations and it sucks, trust me! I play for fun, for escapism and I think BioWare had the right level consequence in the suicide run, so that if you want to play it 'that', way you can kill off quite a few people, lol! I want forward planning and best man for the job to pay off in a game, not for it to bite me in the *ss anyway ;-)

Modifié par Jenova65, 10 novembre 2010 - 12:03 .

[hong]

A mandatory death should be the immediate result of a clear decision on Shepard's part, made in the knowledge that the person on the other end (and only that person) will die. Hiding the death behind layers of subtlety and hinting, or having it occur only several stages later in the mission, or having it occur to someone else not referenced in the dialogue, will only serve to make the player feel cheated.

Also fully agree that making the death a random die roll only leads to save-and-reload.

Modifié par hong, 10 novembre 2010 - 11:11 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Technically, we already have a mandatory death. Her name is Lilith, the colonist from Horizon. She dies right in front of Shepard's eyes no matter what you do. But I can see why she doesn't count.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 10 novembre 2010 - 11:11 .

[GodWood]

hong wrote...
Hiding the death behind layers of subtlety and hinting, or having it occur only several stages later in the mission, or having it occur to someone else not referenced in the dialogue, will only serve to make the player feel cheated.

If thats the case then said player is childish and needs to understand in mature forms of media not everything is sunshine and lollypops.

Also fully agree that making the death a random die roll only leads to save-and-reload.

Indeed, hence why the deaths would have to be scripted and unavoidable.

Modifié par GodWood, 10 novembre 2010 - 11:15 .

[hong]

GodWood wrote...

hong wrote...
Hiding the death behind layers of subtlety and hinting, or having it occur only several stages later in the mission, or having it occur to someone else not referenced in the dialogue, will only serve to make the player feel cheated.

If thats the case then said player is childish and needs to understand in mature forms of media not everything is sunshine and lollypops.

Of course. I understand that Mass Effect is about mature space marines shooting mature rayguns and killing mature bug-eyed aliens.

I also understand that there are nuances to storytelling that tend to lead to certain conventions being followed, if the desire is to evoke certain reactions.

[Collider]

I agree with hong. If the game barely recognizes the deaths at all, it feels meaningless, or an attempt at being "dark and gritty." ME1 did the Ashley and Kaidan choice well in that it has story consequence and the death was not contained on it's own island - it was certainly referenced and recognized by other characters. It remains to be seen how ME2 will deal with the deaths. As it is, they just get sad music.

[Jenova65]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Technically, we already have a mandatory death. Her name is Lilith, the colonist from Horizon. She dies right in front of Shepard's eyes no matter what you do. But I can see why she doesn't count.

Ooooh, very good point, well made! 

[Fiery Phoenix]

Speaking of music, I actually liked how there are three songs for each situation: all survivors, dead squadmates, and dead Shepard.

[Jenova65]

I've only heard one of those pieces of music!

''Ohana means family and family means no one gets left behind'' ;-)

[MrFob]

I think the music for Jokers last Normandy scene (if Shep dies) is great. Great transition from sad to epic.

Modifié par MrFob, 10 novembre 2010 - 12:18 .

[Kurt M.]

Don't know if that has been already said, but it would have been nice if lack of loyalty from certain members could lead to disastrous results due to the nature of their missions.

The perfect example of that idea is Legion: if you don't do his loyalty mission before going to the Collector base, the result should have been him being reprogrammed to accept the Heretics view in the middle of the Suicide Mission, then going hostile (if you take him with you), forcing you to fight a Boss-level enemy (or at least a Harbinger-level enemy) in the middle of the combat against the Collectors. Or killing one or two of your squadmates before someone takes him down, if you sent him to the vents or didn't took him, losing 2-3 squadmates (Legion+ 1 or 2 more) at the same time. If Legion had lost loyalty when having to decide between him and Tali, the argument could be that the Geth reached a Consensus regarding that you were not to be trusted by them, with identical results.

Some other squadmates could've been the same, like Jack and Grunt. That'd have added some additional difficulty, but being it story-wise.

Modifié par Gladiador2, 10 novembre 2010 - 12:32 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Reminder, people. This isn't a thread to debate the merits of mandatory deaths or not. This is how to make mandatory deaths work well.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 10 novembre 2010 - 01:21 .

[Jenova65]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Reminder, people. This isn't a thread to debate the merits of mandatory deaths or not. This is how to make mandatory deaths work well.

I think you misunderstand the quibbling nature of BioWare fans, lol! 

With regards to making mandatory deaths working well, Virmire was it! It left the player feeling totally responsible and with no desire to have to make that kind of choice again (unless Tali is on the table  lol)
It would be OK if Shepard had total control over who gets sent on a real suicide mission and not just a skill specific one, where you can only choose say, Thane or Garrus because that would just be something that would avoid upsetting Tali fans or Garrus fans *for example*  Certain squad mates would be untouchable, making the whole thing pointless, iyswim?

[Midnight_Thirty]

I honestly think mandatory would work and feel better if Shepard didn't have to decide between letting A die vs. B die........leave out the choices and have it be a result of powerful storytelling.

[Jenova65]

Midnight_Thirty wrote...

I honestly think mandatory would work and feel better if Shepard didn't have to decide between letting A die vs. B die........leave out the choices and have it be a result of powerful storytelling.

It would except that they can't kill of any of the potential LI's because that would p*ss off fans who had invested hours of gaming into nurturing that relationship, so that leaves out - Miranda, Jack, Tali, Garrus, Jacob and Thane. Also they couldn't sacrifice Zaeed or Kasumi since not everyone gets them. Well, let's just say things don't look good for Mordin, Grunt, Legion and Samara/Morinth............