325 réponses à ce sujet

[Leonia]

The original post he made:

True, but since you've got to sell Gaider on the idea, you'll need to do a hell of a lot better with him than you've been doing with us.

How can that be disproven. Fact: If you want half-elves to be retconned, you gotta talk to the guy who decided they won't exist in Thedas and provide one hell of a convincing argument. There is no way around that, regardless if you think half-elves would make sense or not.

Of course AlanC9 thinks he is right. Because he is absolutely right.

Modifié par leonia42, 11 novembre 2010 - 04:53 .

[Aermas]

AlanC9 wrote...

Revan312 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

there is pretty much like 5 people in here anyways, 2 against 3 is hardly a consesus

True, but since you've got to sell Gaider on the idea, you'll need to do a hell of a lot better with him than you've been doing with us.

Ahh, the arrogance of AlanC9, a sight to behold it is..

It's an occupational hazard of being right all the time, I'm afraid.

Even if it was about technical limitations, that doesn't matter anymore. You'd still have to sell the retcon even if they went away,

It is this post I have issue with. Exclusively the first sentence

[Daerog]

Eveangaline wrote...

Exactly how human are human/elf children? I mean, sure on the outside they look human, but as far as internal biology, maybe it's more elvin? Maybe they have elvin blood types, or elvin lack-of-appendix or something.

Maybe if something happened that gave elves back their long lives, half elves would be effected as well?

I think it was said that they are completely human. However, if that was the case then, they could always change that as it has never really been nailed on the head in the books or game. Could say they have like a single elven chromosome or whatever, but they completely pass for human in society.

[AlanC9]

Aermas wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Revan312 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

there is pretty much like 5 people in here anyways, 2 against 3 is hardly a consesus

True, but since you've got to sell Gaider on the idea, you'll need to do a hell of a lot better with him than you've been doing with us.

Ahh, the arrogance of AlanC9, a sight to behold it is..

It's an occupational hazard of being right all the time, I'm afraid.

Even if it was about technical limitations, that doesn't matter anymore. You'd still have to sell the retcon even if they went away,

It is this post I have issue with. Exclusively the first sentence

Did you really think that was serious? This isn't the first time you've seemed to misinterpret irony. Or do you just not like irony?

[Aermas]

When I read it, it came off as arrogant, sorry. I tend to read these posts matter-o-factly.

[ladydesire]

Revan312 wrote...

ladydesire wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Exactly how human are human/elf children? I mean, sure on the outside they look human, but as far as internal biology, maybe it's more elvin? Maybe they have elvin blood types, or elvin lack-of-appendix or something.

Maybe if something happened that gave elves back their long lives, half elves would be effected as well?

In every story that I know of where there are half-elves, the main indication they are different is that they live longer than normal humans, but are not immortal. They may look like either humans or elves, but the lifespan is what sets them apart.

Play Arcanum, all the races were visually distinguishable, including the half-breeds.  Half elves were in between elves and humans on ear length, build etc and they just didn't feel right to either race from a physical standpoint, something off about them.

Which is how half-elves were portrayed in D&D as well; I think Bioware was trying to get away from that influence and took inspiration from LotR, since the kings of Gondor were decended from half-elves.

And with the elves in DA:O being far smaller than the humans I don't see the physical blend as being hard to distinguish, if they indeed made a pure blend visually of the two races.

I'm sure if Bioware had wanted them to stand out, they would have done so; I don't buy the "there were technical issues, so they didn't try" line of reasoning that others seem to think is the case.

[Tiax Rules All]

ladydesire wrote...

Which is how half-elves were portrayed in D&D as well; I think Bioware was trying to get away from that influence and took inspiration from LotR, since the kings of Gondor were decended from half-elves.

I think some even Gaider might have thought to continue the look but making it work in the 3d engine would have taken too much work to be worth it.

I'm sure if Bioware had wanted them to stand out, they would have done so; I don't buy the "there were technical issues, so they didn't try" line of reasoning that others seem to think is the case.

Please read this text from Gaider about Half-breeds and tell me what you think. To me the first paragraph states that Half-breeds were considered but with their rescources would not have been able to be fleshed out fully, instead opted for a way to make the lore reflect something where they wouldn't HAVE to make half-breeds.

Read please...

David Gaider wrote...

Without getting into the "why" behind the elves-and-humans-produce-humans thing (which I've talked about before), I will talk about why we didn't deal with it in the game. Primarily it's because we didn't have room. There's a lot of things that exist in the Thedas world that we weren't able to get into in Origins -- part of it is due to limited resources, but part of it is also because to properly address it we'd need to do it justice. We were already introducing the races and their situations, and adding on the complexity of explaining something that does need explanation would... get us what, exactly? You can't play one of the "elf-blooded" (this is what humans with mixed parentage are generally referred to, though I imagine "half-elf" could also be used in a slanderous fashion), and trying to explain the presence of a small number of humans in the alienage (as a for-instance) would have diluted the story we were already going for. Trying to fit everything that exists into the world in one story, after all, isn't really feasible.

I'd like to get into it. I think it's a possibility that has the potential for good drama, and even allowing the player to be elf-blooded might be cool in the future. But like I said, I'd want to do it justice. If your view on it is that you wanted half-elves to be there, and their omission is a fault -- then so be it. I can't really argue with that except to say that we don't think they're required. As some people have mentioned, it's not a widespread thing. Many elves resist having human children for cultural reasons, and many elf-blooded children will live amongst humans as full humans simply because they can get away with it and hiding their heritage means not having to suffer for it -- from humans as well as elves. Some few might be public about their identity, and unwilling to leave their parents behind, but like I said that belongs in another story.

Incidentally, for half-dwarves the situation is a bit different. Dwarves aren't a very fertile race to begin with, and far less so when it comes to mating with humans and elves. In fact, it would be considered rare... rare enough that it's considered more of an oddity than a group of its own. The result is also less stigmatized... primarily because it's also less noticeable. You end up with what would appear to be a tall dwarf or a short human. That calls for a new model -- which we weren't going to get, even if we wanted to address such a rare case. Again, it's certainly something we could do in the future, though such a character would still be considered unusual.

I imagine for those who really like their half-elves that's not a very satisfactory answer, but I hope it offers some light on the why's and wherefore's.

Now it implies that there wont be any Half-Elves as I want to see them. but certainly doesn't mean it cant be done. retcon-ing or changing something that was not really explained in game and BARELY explained in the forums would not be that big of a deal.  When Gaider wrote this post Half-breeds were not worth thier time and they "couldn't do it justice" with thier resources. but Gaider has expressed the "potential for good drama" there. I hope one day they will find the benefit to adding that type of character will outwiegh the cost of implementing it.

[upsettingshorts]

Tiax Rules All wrote...
When Gaider wrote this post Half-breeds were not worth thier time and they "couldn't do it justice" with thier resources. but Gaider has expressed the "potential for good drama" there. I hope one day they will find the benefit to adding that type of character will outwiegh the cost of implementing it.

Far be it for me to tell Mr. Gaider how to write, but he could construct the same drama without relying on the sympathetic crutch of a mixed-race character. 

THAT'S RIGHT TIAX IM BACK TO RUIN YOUR THREAD!

Just kidding.  I'm just messing around.  Good find with the dev post, interesting to read it was a development decision first not a writing one.  

[Nighteye2]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...
When Gaider wrote this post Half-breeds were not worth thier time and they "couldn't do it justice" with thier resources. but Gaider has expressed the "potential for good drama" there. I hope one day they will find the benefit to adding that type of character will outwiegh the cost of implementing it.

Far be it for me to tell Mr. Gaider how to write, but he could construct the same drama without relying on the sympathetic crutch of a mixed-race character. 

THAT'S RIGHT TIAX IM BACK TO RUIN YOUR THREAD!

Just kidding.  I'm just messing around.  Good find with the dev post, interesting to read it was a development decision first not a writing one.  

Actually, going by earlier posts in 2007 and 2008, I would say it *was* a writing decision, they way elven genes work. The development decision was not to explain how those genes work in-game, at least not in great detail. Another development decision was not to prominently feature Half-Dwarves, which do exist but are rare.

[Asepsis]

It would be interesting if half-Elves could inherit other traits from their Elven family, perhaps Elven only allergies(If those exist), eye color, etc. Things you wouldn't right away pick out as Elven specifically, but are.

[blothulfur]

A talent for poverty?

[Asepsis]

blothulfur wrote...

A talent for poverty?

Ouch!

[Tiax Rules All]

blothulfur wrote...

A talent for poverty?

Thats where you find the best thieves, Duncan knew this...

[blothulfur]

Stens wisdom is contagious.

[Revan312]

leonia42 wrote...

The original post he made:

True, but since you've got to sell Gaider on the idea, you'll need to do a hell of a lot better with him than you've been doing with us.

How can that be disproven. Fact: If you want half-elves to be retconned, you gotta talk to the guy who decided they won't exist in Thedas and provide one hell of a convincing argument. There is no way around that, regardless if you think half-elves would make sense or not.

And again, from the posts from Gaider, it seemingly was that they didn't have the resources or time to implement it.. I really doubt it will be implemented anytime within the franchise of DA but nonetheless, it's not a matter of convincing him to create them, it's a matter of putting sufficient need on the concept of them so he would feel they should be created. He already stated he likes the idea but wants to do it justice and the time frame of the games and the priorities of the writing team dictate he wouldn't be able to. Elf blooded, to me, is essentially the same as a half-elf traditionally speaking and those are in the lore and wouldn't be a retcon if explored in depth.

Of course AlanC9 thinks he is right. Because he is absolutely right.

Even though he's not right because Gaider isn't here to comment, he will be right when Gaider enters the thread and says "you'll have to do a hell of a lot better than that!" Yet he isn't here, so AlanC9's post reeks of pure egotism and bias on the subject, and the same goes for you.. Especially since neither of you are privy on the development of future DA games, so, in a nutshell, just stop, as your just making yourselves look like complete tools..

And although that might be considered harsh, at this moment in time, it's precisely how I feel as the discussion has moved from debating the subject and it's merits to shooting down the concept in totality based on it's implementation's potential for being a retcon, one of which is hardly set in stone whatsoever. If you wish to continue arguing about why the concept isn't needed, that's fine, but lines that consist of essentially "It'll never happen, your not convincing and you should give up" is about as arrogant as it gets and does a disservice to the original intent for discussion by Tiax.

/end rant

Modifié par Revan312, 12 novembre 2010 - 03:58 .

[Tiax Rules All]

Thanks Revan

I'm gonna try to get this back on track here so, why do you think we have not seen any Elves yet in any of the marketing or screenshots? Is it simply just a coincidence you think or do you think that the Elves are not ready to be shown (not done, going through changes) ? 

Of coure its just speculation but due to the way Hawke and family are human, not seeing them in video's or screenshots and just from the lack of thier apparent involvement in the story as we know, I feel like there will be less Elves in DA2 then in Origins. Im sure i will prob be wrong there but just with the info we have now a new person looking at it might not even know there was any...

[Razored1313]

lore says that all children of humans and elves are human

[Tiax Rules All]

thanks for that froogle we haven't talked about that at all before page 13 of this thread...
When I read this in my head you had the voice of Sandal.

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 12 novembre 2010 - 05:06 .

[Fortlowe]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Thanks Revan

I'm gonna try to get this back on track here so, why do you think we have not seen any Elves yet in any of the marketing or screenshots? Is it simply just a coincidence you think or do you think that the Elves are not ready to be shown (not done, going through changes) ? 

Of coure its just speculation but due to the way Hawke and family are human, not seeing them in video's or screenshots and just from the lack of thier apparent involvement in the story as we know, I feel like there will be less Elves in DA2 then in Origins. Im sure i will prob be wrong there but just with the info we have now a new person looking at it might not even know there was any...

It could be BW is particularly proud of how the Elves turned out, and they wanna save it for when we are champing at the bit for info (sorta like now). I mean the humans didn't get all the attention the Qunari got from us about thier redesign, but there was a significant improvment in how humans look over their DA:O counterparts. So it stands to reason thay the Elves got an upgrade, too.

[Absafraginlootly]

I always assumed that Dragon age had no half elves because the writer's didn't want half elves, it's not as if they HAD to write elf+human=human in the lore, they could of just said they were rare or not mentioned them at all and choose to decide about whether to have them in a later game.

That being said, I was thinking about how half elves could be implemented, or atleast how I would fit it into the current lore and had an entertaining thought. It's simple: the elves we see today, the Dalish, the City elves. Are the half elves, when humans came to thedas and met the elves, during that time before they went to war, a bunch of elves and a bunch of  humans interbreeded and half elves came into being. Shunned by both the rest of the humans and elves they sought eachothers company and started marrying and breeding with eachother. If they bred with either human or elf there offspring would be (in apperance atleast) human or elven, not that many of the "pure" elves would have been interested in that. When Arathlan was sunk into the ground and all the normal elves were killed, only the enslaved half elves and the humans remained. Since there is no reason to think that the empire would want to acknowledge the humaness of their slaves they were known as elves.

If this were true ("IF" being the operative word) how would anyone know any different? What with all that elven history lost.

Unless of course the protaginist were to find Arlathan and happen upon one of the original elves who could tell them?
 http://dragonage.wik..._Arl_Foreshadow


"Forest Fall: Truth and Legend in the Search for Arlathan
-Survivors? poppycock! "


This is all just abit of fun speculation on my part, though I think finding an ancient, rather more alien and elfier than thou, and kinda loopy for having been alone for so many years, elf would be neat.
 I'm not really suggesting that the dragon age team do this, it's just my explanation for how there could be half elves and still have it make sense for alistair to be human.

Though I suppose this mightent really work for your wants though since there wouldn't be much of an elven culture for them to be stuck between it and the human one and not many people would know anyway.

Modifié par Absafraginlootly, 12 novembre 2010 - 06:00 .

[Revan312]

Absafraginlootly wrote...
*snip*

That's actually really interesting and seems to work really well since the lore is so vague on the original elves of Arlathan.

That's a pretty entertaining idea indeed, I'd love to see that sort of, purer blooded elf concept realized.  As you said, make them a bit more alien and defined looking, most likely more powerful etc.

In fact that would be a great story for DA3.  Have it be the search for Arlathan and the discovery of what really happened between the original elves and the Tevinter. It would be a great opportunity to branch off and have an elven protagonist, that is if DA3 uses a fully voiced main char as well and is restricted to one race. I can imagine the world crushing realization for the main char that the elves of today are simply half breeds themselves and truly did lose immortality due to being the slaves of humans and breeding with them. Maybe some spirits of the long dead original elves are still lingering within ruins around Arlathan.
Really you could do a ton of things with that story, but anyway, great idea Absafraginlootly

[Aermas]

Tiax, the Lowtown used to be the slave-shacks of the Imperium, odds are it's going to be like the alienage & will be crawling with dagger-ears

[Absafraginlootly]

Revan312 wrote...

Absafraginlootly wrote...
*snip*

That's actually really interesting and seems to work really well since the lore is so vague on the original elves of Arlathan.

That's a pretty entertaining idea indeed, I'd love to see that sort of, purer blooded elf concept realized.  As you said, make them a bit more alien and defined looking, most likely more powerful etc.

In fact that would be a great story for DA3.  Have it be the search for Arlathan and the discovery of what really happened between the original elves and the Tevinter. It would be a great opportunity to branch off and have an elven protagonist, that is if DA3 uses a fully voiced main char as well and is restricted to one race. I can imagine the world crushing realization for the main char that the elves of today are simply half breeds themselves and truly did lose immortality due to being the slaves of humans and breeding with them. Maybe some spirits of the long dead original elves are still lingering within ruins around Arlathan.
Really you could do a ton of things with that story, but anyway, great idea Absafraginlootly

Thankyou

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Good find with the dev post, interesting to read it was a development decision first not a writing one.

The part about 'lacking resources' refers to the elf-blooded. That is, they didn't have enough time and resources to explore humans who have one elven parent.