325 réponses à ce sujet

[Tiax Rules All]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I really don't see the cost-effectiveness reason for the exclusion of half-elves. If you're going to shake a stick at anything, shake it at Gaider in that case for lack of what you'd consider world-building skills.

To make one Half-Elf companion wouldnt be any more tasking then any other unique looking companion really.

If you were going to include more of them as a group or commoners outside of unique designs, you would need to make more models, thus more work.

[AlanC9]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I just don't see any positive reason to force half-elves into the setting

You might have said something similar if there were no qunari in DAo and now Sten was going to be a companion in DA2

That's ridiculous. There could be any number of undiscovered races in other parts of the world. Discovering a new one is completely unrelated to rewriting how the existing races are related.

I have no objection to new races. It's the retcon that I would loathe. (And no, art style doesn't count)

[Revan312]

leonia42 wrote...

Artistic redesign does not equal retcon.

Uh, yes it does, at least to me, I'm waaay more jarred by the art design being changed than I am about any tiny lore fact hidden in a novel 10 people bought and read..

It would be like making the trolls in WoW look like zombie birds.. I don't think people would accept it as just "art redesign" it's a freaking retcon..

[Leonia]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I
really don't see the cost-effectiveness reason for the exclusion of
half-elves. If you're going to shake a stick at anything, shake it at
Gaider in that case for lack of what you'd consider world-building
skills.

To make one Half-Elf companion wouldnt be any more tasking then any other unique looking companion really.

If
you were going to include more of them as a group or commoners outside
of unique designs, you would need to make more models, thus more
work.

But you couldn't make just one, could you? Not without changing the lore to accomodate that one single half-elf in the universe. Is that much effort really needed when you could just have a city-elf who pretty much acts human on some issues and elven on other issues instead?

Modifié par leonia42, 10 novembre 2010 - 07:19 .

[upsettingshorts]

Revan312 wrote...
That is maybe the MOST, shallow answer for an addition ever formulated.

Shallow? No.  Selfish?  Definitely.

Revan312 wrote...
That can be said about literally, literally anything they do with the game and it's world. Well if it removes my love of bad inventory systems than I don't want them to spend the time adding pigtails into the character creator..

Yes it can.  We're talking about my reasons for not wanting Bioware to add something I don't want to a game I'm interested in. 

From my point of view, if Bioware made a game based solely on my preferences, I'd be throwing out a lot of stuff other people like at the expensive of stuff want I put in.  Same thing.

Revan312 wrote...
I mean really, come on, that's mind numbingly preposterous..

Nope.  Not seeing how it is.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 10 novembre 2010 - 07:22 .

[Tiax Rules All]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...
Common, not true, DA2 makes this easier. All companions have unique models and clothes now so adding a Half-Elf companion wouldn't be any harder then adding the Pirate Isabela

Are you going to have this character be unvoiced? Not be integrated into the plot? Just exist and be half-elvish?

No your not getting me. Isabella doesn't look like every other Human. She has unique, body, voice, personality and possibly animations. Same stuff a Half-Elf would need done... same amount of work

[Leonia]

Revan312 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Artistic redesign does not equal retcon.

Uh, yes it does, at least to me, I'm waaay more jarred by the art design being changed than I am about any tiny lore fact hidden in a novel 10 people bought and read..

It would be like making the trolls in WoW look like zombie birds.. I don't think people would accept it as just "art redesign" it's a freaking retcon..

If the Zombie Birds had the same qualities (stats, mannerisms, aggro radius, etc.) as the Trolls aside from their looks, then they are still Trolls with a new name/look. They haven't been retconned, they haven't been changed or altered except cosmetically. New source material hasn't been introduced to redefine who they or what they are.

[upsettingshorts]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...
Common, not true, DA2 makes this easier. All companions have unique models and clothes now so adding a Half-Elf companion wouldn't be any harder then adding the Pirate Isabela

Are you going to have this character be unvoiced? Not be integrated into the plot? Just exist and be half-elvish?

No your not getting me. Isabella doesn't look like every other Human. She has unique, body, voice, personality and possibly animations. Same stuff a Half-Elf would need done... same amount of work

...and I'm reading this and thinking you're not getting me.  I don't think this is getting anywhere.

[Revan312]

Herr Uhl wrote...

It bloody well is. Having a race that slowly dies from out-breeding if mixed with others is in the core of the elven lore.

Well until that becomes a large part of the game and isn't just a fleeting convorsation you have with a keeper apprentice then I might see it as a major part of the story, plus that's mythical stories from the elves, there's no basis in fact for anything they talk about concerning the tale of the Dales.

But last time I checked, killing the archdemon and the lore surrounding the darkspawn was the core point of DA:O..

[AlanC9]

I'm with Herr Uhl. It's a lore matter, not an art design matter. They wouldn't have to make any commoner half-elves since human-elf pairings are very rare anyway.

[AlexXIV]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I really don't see the cost-effectiveness reason for the exclusion of half-elves. If you're going to shake a stick at anything, shake it at Gaider in that case for lack of what you'd consider world-building skills.

Well is it lack of skill if you have a different opinion? It actually makes sense in the lore that the elves for once lost their immortality by human presense, and also can only reproduce with their own kin. It keeps the two races from mingling. If you think about it, in most games/stories where there are half-elves it doesn't meake much sense. Why are there half elves and not quarter elves? Or Humans who had elven ancestors somewhere so they look like humans but age slower? In time 2 different races would mix up so much that you couldn't even name them anymore. Basically same like in the US where you have a melting pot of all races. Races would become irrelevant.

So the way it is in DA:O elves have to look after their children to marry only elves to preserve elven culture. The only thing I wonder and heard nothing of in DA:O is. If humans have the habit to rape elven females, then why don't any human children live with the dalish or in the alienage? Are they killed or given away? Strange ...

Modifié par AlexXIV, 10 novembre 2010 - 07:23 .

[Leonia]

The lore is the foundation of the franchise, this is the story about Thedas after all. If you start messing with the foundation, something else in the house is going to be effected later on. You can't just go retconning all willy-nilly and changing things just because people want a single character in the game who isn't sure if he's more elven or human (which again, can be totally done by a city elf caught between cultures). If you are going to make a significant change then you have to have a better argument than that to justify it or you get into George Lucas territory and start eliminating canon that other writers/developers have established their works on later on. And nobody wants that.



Also, for some more clarification on what a retcon is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon

[Revan312]

leonia42 wrote...


If the Zombie Birds had the same qualities (stats, mannerisms, aggro radius, etc.) as the Trolls aside from their looks, then they are still Trolls with a new name/look. They haven't been retconned, they haven't been changed or altered except cosmetically. New source material hasn't been introduced to redefine who they or what they are.

Wow, just.... Wow... So if my skin changed to green and I grew a non functioning foot out of my head, grew 5 inches and spewed blood out my eyes whn I talked, I wouldn't be changed significantly... Your something else..

Visual design is as much a part of a race or character as anything else, period.. If they made the dwarves 6 feet tall they would stop being dwarves to almost everyone, now they're just mountain dwelling humans.

[Tiax Rules All]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...
Common, not true, DA2 makes this easier. All companions have unique models and clothes now so adding a Half-Elf companion wouldn't be any harder then adding the Pirate Isabela

Are you going to have this character be unvoiced? Not be integrated into the plot? Just exist and be half-elvish?

No your not getting me. Isabella doesn't look like every other Human. She has unique, body, voice, personality and possibly animations. Same stuff a Half-Elf would need done... same amount of work

...and I'm reading this and thinking you're not getting me.  I don't think this is getting anywhere.

o kaay.. lets say I dont like pirates and Isabela's character instead was a half-Elf character like I want. The time to make my character wouldnt be any loger then the time to make Isabela. so, im trying to say that other things dont need to be sacrificed to implement my companion.

[Herr Uhl]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I really don't see the cost-effectiveness reason for the exclusion of half-elves. If you're going to shake a stick at anything, shake it at Gaider in that case for lack of what you'd consider world-building skills.

To make one Half-Elf companion wouldnt be any more tasking then any other unique looking companion really.

If you were going to include more of them as a group or commoners outside of unique designs, you would need to make more models, thus more work.

You believe that the decision was made due to cost restraints? Why?

And they used 5 models as a maximum for any race is Origins (Human had fat males). They could easily have gotten away with making 2 new models.

[maxernst]

AlanC9 wrote...

I'm with Herr Uhl. It's a lore matter, not an art design matter. They wouldn't have to make any commoner half-elves since human-elf pairings are very rare anyway.

I always thought it was funny how the half-elf became a standard of fantasy games, given that in Tolkien one was born about once every three thousand years.  Granted the difference in longevity in Tolkien made humans particularly unsuitable mates for elves, but social pressures do the same thing in DA:O. 

[Tiax Rules All]

Revan312 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

It bloody well is. Having a race that slowly dies from out-breeding if mixed with others is in the core of the elven lore.

Well until that becomes a large part of the game and isn't just a fleeting convorsation you have with a keeper apprentice then I might see it as a major part of the story, plus that's mythical stories from the elves, there's no basis in fact for anything they talk about concerning the tale of the Dales.

But last time I checked, killing the archdemon and the lore surrounding the darkspawn was the core point of DA:O..

Quote for mother f-ing truth

[Leonia]

AlexXIV wrote...
So the way it is in DA:O elves have to look after their children to marry only elves to preserve elven culture. The only thing I wonder and heard nothing of in DA:O is. If humans have the habit to rape elven females, then why don't any human children live with the dalish or in the alienage? Are they killed or given away? Strange ...

I think such children are raised by the Chantry, but I can't recall if that was said in a codex entry or if I'm just making it up.

[Ziggeh]

Revan312 wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Revan312 wrote...
Personally I see no problem with it and would really like to see some half-breeds including elves, the only thing that makes their exclusion sensible is the time/development constraints

A species in biology:

the major subdivision of a genus or
subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification,
composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to
breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of
another species.

Not that you can really hold it to that in a game in which "a wizard did it" is actually reasonable explanation, but still, it always bugs me.

But again, we're talking races here, not species.. Elves have males/females, are bipedal, have the same intelligence, have the same hair, have the same skin colors, have the same social structure/family structure, are nearly biologicly identical to humans minus some cosmetic differences such as height/weight and facial/ear structure, barring the "immortality" debate.

And ya, even if they are different species, this is a game with undead, magic, dragons etc.. so having halfbreeds doesn't really break my suspension

That would make it like dogs, physically distinct while remaining the same basic thing. I think that rather weakens the intent of the fantastic analogy.

Like I say, it's far more a personal point of pedantry (I actively encourage alliteration) than something I see as fundemental.

[upsettingshorts]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

o kaay.. lets say I dont like pirates and Isabela's character instead was a half-Elf character like I want. The time to make my character wouldnt be any loger then the time to make Isabela. so, im trying to say that other things dont need to be sacrificed to implement my companion.

Then see my "shallow" answer and substitute the fact I'd rather have Isabela than the half-elf.  I'd rather have almost any companion over the half-elf.  But you probably knew that.

I'll add that your position is pretty reasonable, and lore can be altered at any time.  Though I wouldn't be terribly impressed with a retcon or something, it wouldn't bother me that much.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 10 novembre 2010 - 07:30 .

[Tiax Rules All]

AlexXIV wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I really don't see the cost-effectiveness reason for the exclusion of half-elves. If you're going to shake a stick at anything, shake it at Gaider in that case for lack of what you'd consider world-building skills.

Well is it lack of skill if you have a different opinion? It actually makes sense in the lore that the elves for once lost their immortality by human presense, and also can only reproduce with their own kin. It keeps the two races from mingling. If you think about it, in most games/stories where there are half-elves it doesn't meake much sense. Why are there half elves and not quarter elves? Or Humans who had elven ancestors somewhere so they look like humans but age slower? In time 2 different races would mix up so much that you couldn't even name them anymore. Basically same like in the US where you have a melting pot of all races. Races would become irrelevant.

So the way it is in DA:O elves have to look after their children to marry only elves to preserve elven culture. The only thing I wonder and heard nothing of in DA:O is. If humans have the habit to rape elven females, then why don't any human children live with the dalish or in the alienage? Are they killed or given away? Strange ...

Races will still be races, the same way we have race. we are not all one big grey skinned, one toned master race. it doesnt happen like that in society

[maxernst]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...
Common, not true, DA2 makes this easier. All companions have unique models and clothes now so adding a Half-Elf companion wouldn't be any harder then adding the Pirate Isabela

Are you going to have this character be unvoiced? Not be integrated into the plot? Just exist and be half-elvish?

No your not getting me. Isabella doesn't look like every other Human. She has unique, body, voice, personality and possibly animations. Same stuff a Half-Elf would need done... same amount of work

...and I'm reading this and thinking you're not getting me.  I don't think this is getting anywhere.

o kaay.. lets say I dont like pirates and Isabela's character instead was a half-Elf character like I want. The time to make my character wouldnt be any loger then the time to make Isabela. so, im trying to say that other things dont need to be sacrificed to implement my companion.

So you think Bioware should cater to your unique preferences and devote all the time and resources spent on making Isabela to make a companion just for you? 

[AlanC9]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Revan312 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

It bloody well is. Having a race that slowly dies from out-breeding if mixed with others is in the core of the elven lore.

Well until that becomes a large part of the game and isn't just a fleeting convorsation you have with a keeper apprentice then I might see it as a major part of the story, plus that's mythical stories from the elves, there's no basis in fact for anything they talk about concerning the tale of the Dales.

But last time I checked, killing the archdemon and the lore surrounding the darkspawn was the core point of DA:O..

Quote for mother f-ing truth

You're q-f-t-ing something saying that elves are wrong about a basic fact of their own biology? Dude, I know Revan312 is all you've got for an ally, but really?

[Tiax Rules All]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

o kaay.. lets say I dont like pirates and Isabela's character instead was a half-Elf character like I want. The time to make my character wouldnt be any loger then the time to make Isabela. so, im trying to say that other things dont need to be sacrificed to implement my companion.

Then see my "shallow" answer and substitute the fact I'd rather have Isabela than the half-elf.  I'd rather have almost any companion over the half-elf.  But you probably knew that.

I suppose but you dont know that because you havent played them. They have only announced Isi and Varric, how do you know there isnt a character left who you would replace. If my character was well done whi is to say it couldn't be your favorite, you really cant deny that.

[Revan312]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

o kaay.. lets say I dont like pirates and Isabela's character instead was a half-Elf character like I want. The time to make my character wouldnt be any loger then the time to make Isabela. so, im trying to say that other things dont need to be sacrificed to implement my companion.

Then see my "shallow" answer and substitute the fact I'd rather have Isabela than the half-elf.  I'd rather have almost any companion over the half-elf.  But you probably knew that.

I'll add that your position is pretty reasonable, and lore can be altered at any time.  Though I wouldn't be terribly impressed with a retcon or something, it wouldn't bother me that much.

But that's the point isn't it, it's only about what we'd like to see, not what we have to see implemented. If they made one and you were poed, well, tough huh.. That's what everyone says about all the rest of the changes going around, if you don't like em, they didn't make them with your type of preferences in mind..

We're just saying we would like to see them implemented, not that they have to be.. If they don't that's fine, I won't cry over it, but if they did, I would be a little happier as long as they wrote it well..