13812 réponses à ce sujet

[HoonDing]

RageGT wrote...

Well, here's one for him:




The Witcher 2 - Teaching Yahtzee How to Play!

At least in the Fallout games one could kill annoying children.

[Bejos_]

virumor wrote...

RageGT wrote...

Well, here's one for him:




The Witcher 2 - Teaching Yahtzee How to Play!

At least in the Fallout games one could kill annoying children.

Oh man, don't get me start on invulnerable children ... Fallout 3 has them run away ... Skyrim will have them be impervious (!) to damage ... D; Bad design! Bad design!
I don't notice it in story-focused games like this, but in sandbox games? Yeesh ...

I should drink coffee before I visit BSN. Get ornery without me caffeine.

[Anathemic]

Bejos_ wrote...
What nobody's brought up yet-- and I'm anticipating flames -- is that the story isn't very well told. Whatever the merits of the story, they really aren't highlighted sufficiently. This is a long game, and few people are going to get through it in a week, let alone one sitting. Cf the info-dump that happens in the epilogue. That's a very big faux pas in the literary genre. Even if you disregard conventions, it's still sloppily done. Staring at [Spoiler!]'s face for 20 minutes while he explains what the entirety of TW2 was about is a very heavy-handed, tiresome way to round up loose threads.

So like many other's stated before, the only real gripe you have in TW2's story/storytelling is the Epilogue? I'm sorry but if this the only real main gripe, then your claim that "the story isn't very well told" is null and void, because you completely ignored 95% (at the very least) of the game's storytelling.

Have you read Agatha Christie's books? Particualarly the one of Twelve Dancing Indians or some sort. The book is highly critically acclaimed, despire what you called a "literary faux" of having an info dump in the end.

Now don't get me wrong, the Epilogue isn't some masterpeice constructed by Tolkien, but it's not weak/bland either.

Modifié par Anathemic, 09 juin 2011 - 09:19 .

[Bejos_]

Anathemic wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...
What nobody's brought up yet-- and I'm anticipating flames -- is that the story isn't very well told. Whatever the merits of the story, they really aren't highlighted sufficiently. This is a long game, and few people are going to get through it in a week, let alone one sitting. Cf the info-dump that happens in the epilogue. That's a very big faux pas in the literary genre. Even if you disregard conventions, it's still sloppily done. Staring at [Spoiler!]'s face for 20 minutes while he explains what the entirety of TW2 was about is a very heavy-handed, tiresome way to round up loose threads.

So like many other's stated before, the only real gripe you have in TW2's story/storytelling is the Epilogue? I'm sorry but if this the only real main gripe, then your claim that "the story isn't very well told" is null and void, because you completely ignored 95% (at the very least) of the game's storytelling.

Have you read Agatha Christie's books? Particualarly the one of Twelve Dancing Indians or some sort. The book is highly critically acclaimed, despire what you called a "literary faux" of having an info dump in the end.

Now don't get me wrong, the Epilogue isn't some masterpeice constructed by Tolkien, but it's not weak/bland either.

Anathemic, the murder mystery genre is entirely removed from other genres in what it requires to tell a story: It absolutely relies on the twist at the end. Other genres do not. Movies like The Usual Suspects or the Sixth Sense also rely on this convention to do their stories justice.

TW2's story doesn't rely on this end-of-game reveal to make its story enjoyable. Take away the mystery, and you've still got a decent (for gaming) story. Also, consider that a game is, by definition, interactive: The writers don't have to rely on gimmicks to engage the player, because they're already engaged.

All that considered, the epilogue is bad, yes: The player has to sit on his couch/lie on his bed/stand on his head, staring at a face for an entire 20 minutes, in order to have threads tied up.
The fact that that must happen in order for the entire thing to make sense, is a testament to how badly the rest of the story does at explaining things. So it's not just a critique of the epilogue: The very fact that the epilogue was done the way it was, is evidence that the rest of the story wasn't that well done, either.

Again, I'm pointing out the flaw in the storytelling, not the story. And I'm not saying it's some of the worst storytelling I've ever come across. I'm merely saying it's inexpertly done. And considering the medium, is that really a surprise?

Modifié par Bejos_, 09 juin 2011 - 09:38 .

[Aldandil]

Anathemic wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...
What nobody's brought up yet-- and I'm anticipating flames -- is that the story isn't very well told. Whatever the merits of the story, they really aren't highlighted sufficiently. This is a long game, and few people are going to get through it in a week, let alone one sitting. Cf the info-dump that happens in the epilogue. That's a very big faux pas in the literary genre. Even if you disregard conventions, it's still sloppily done. Staring at [Spoiler!]'s face for 20 minutes while he explains what the entirety of TW2 was about is a very heavy-handed, tiresome way to round up loose threads.

Now don't get me wrong, the Epilogue isn't some masterpeice constructed by Tolkien, but it's not weak/bland either.

Tolkien himself is, ironically enough, a perfect example of a bunch "literary fauxs" stacked in a single volume. I think it's fair to say that the info-dump in the end certainly isn't a good example of story-telling in an RPG, but I don't think that means that the entire game suffers from bad story telling.

[Darklaguna]

Ok so Yahtzee didn't play the game and got some facts wrong.But who cares??He said the game was challenging and compared the story to Game of Thrones,isn't that the biggest compliment you can make an rpg?

[Corto81]

Bejos_ wrote...

All that considered, the epilogue is bad, yes: The player has to sit on his couch/lie on his bed/stand on his head, staring at a face for an entire 20 minutes, in order to have threads tied up.
The fact that that must happen in order for the entire thing to make sense, is a testament to how badly the rest of the story does at explaining things. So it's not just a critique of the epilogue: The very fact that the epilogue was done the way it was, is evidence that the rest of the story wasn't that well done, either.

I don't agree, though I think you have a point.

IMO the story telling was very well done. And the story was very well done.
For 2 Acts.

Then comes Act 3, 10x shorter than the other two, and all-of-a-sudden you're at the end.
And you have to listen to ****** for 10 minutes. Not because the story telling was bad, it was very good, like I said...
But because, suddenly, the story telling stopped and decided - time to end the game... And that was bad.

Along with some minor annoyances (save game format, rotating mini-map), the sudden ending - or Act 3 in total - is what bring this game from 9.5/10 to 8.5/10 for me.

If only they worked on that Act 3 for a wee bit more...

[wolfsite]

I love how if someone has an opinion that differs from everyone else you just assume he is wrong and an idiot or didn't play the game properly.


He made one good point in his favour.... he wasn't having fun and if you are not having fun why commit hours on hours to play the game.


Now I'll leave so you can say how much of an idiot I am for pointing out something that someone else you think is an idiot for having a different opinion (wchich last time I checked you are aloud to have one).



Note: also just FYI by making fun of him and his opinion you are justyfing the "Elitism" comments he was making.

[DragonRageGT]

wolfsite wrote...

He made one good point in his favour.... he wasn't having fun and if you are not having fun why commit hours on hours to play the game.

Huh... to write a review?

[slimgrin]

Look, I'm just saying Yahtzee didn't so a very good review. Doesn't mean I think anyone critical of the game is an idiot.

[Dragoonlordz]

Shirosaki17 wrote...

YohkoOhno wrote...

-snip-

That's not to say I didn't enjoy the game, but I also recognize its flaws.  Don't think for one second CDPJ is looking just at the PC gamers.  They're actually going to need that XBOX money to turn a profit on this.  If the XBOX port tanks, I have a feeling you may not see a TW3.

This is just so stupid on so many levels. If you want to know what happened in the first game go read the wikipedia synopsis, or play Witcher 1. If you can't figure the controls out then read the manual. That's what it's there for. This kind of rhetoric is the reason why gaming is so ****ty these days. No tutorial, what do I do? People are becoming so stupid, lacking any kind of critical thinking skills to solve their problems. It ruins it for the rest of us who rarely get a challenging game and enjoy a challenge.

You realize that even with Demon's Souls "good tutorial" that Yahtzee still didn't beat it and gave up after dying a lot. Shortly after the first boss.. He's actually making up crap about Witcher 2 to complain about. A lot of it isn't true or a lot of it could have been figured out if he wasn't such an idiot and read the manual.

People like him complaining about games being difficult is the reason why we get such easy crap to play. I mean how many challenging games do we get every year compared to easy crap you could play on the hardest difficulty without knowing what you're doing? People shouldn't have to apologize or be sorry for wanting a challenging game when we get so few. If you can't play it, then it's just not your game and you should keep moving. Go beat DA2 on nightmare or ME2 on Insanity if you want to feel good about yourself.

All games should be self-contained and treat the user as it is potentially his or her first game. Companies that ignore that will end up suffering. Even sequels do this.

Do you feel the same way about RPGs? Do you think we should all sit through a 30 min. to 1 hour tutorial explaining what all the stats do and how they help your character and how RPG mechanics work in general? I don't.

Also you don't know what they are doing for the 360. They might release Witcher 1 along with it or perhaps they will do something similar to ME2 for PS3. You don't know.

They've also already sold about half a million copies and the budget for developing the game was about $10 million. They're on track to sell a million on the PC alone within the next year. So you saying they need to sell on the Xbox just to turn a profit is wrong. I don't know why you're making that up.

The criticism about the tutorial may be valid, but if you needed help with signs or combat like Yahtzee did, then you'd just have to look in the manual to get all the info for the magic and combat. The rest of it is just BS you're making up to complain about.

100% agree with Shirosaki17 as I have stated elsewhere for the love of god people stop moaning about not knowing every single detail prior to playing or through playing. Every game will have questions about "What does that mean" or "How do I do this and that" and most people have enough common sense to read the manual if stuck or don't understand something they also have enough intelligence to go read up on google if there is something they want to know. In two weeks they have sold (over) half a million copies on PC alone if people honestly think the 360 version will fail they are diluding themselves.

It's selling far more than DA2 and even ME2 with regard to the one format its currently on which is PC compared to the PC versions of those games and the console version will do exactly the same. There are no console owners I know who do not wish to buy this game for console if they own a 360 and if their PC was not high enough to run it. Seriously Yahtzee is a cry baby and always has been but puts it across in a amusing way that is all, if couldn't be bothered to read the fecking manual which explains the signs and more in very good detail then deserves no credit for incompetence.

Like I said combat is not that hard imho if do what most normal gamers do (including myself) which is read the manual if die then look at what did wrong and do something different or practice and get timing right on for example rolls and blocks etc. The tutorial was fine as introduction to the game and it did not have to visually tell you how to do signs because it's already listed in manual what they do so yes I will say it stop being so bloody lazy and read it. I can't be called PC elitist because doesn't matter which format I play on and I own and play all major consoles and PC and always read controls and abilities in manuals because unlike some I'm not so lazy.

P.s. YohkoOhno it's CDPR not CDPJ if you can't even get the name right you lose credability on knowing what your talking about from the offset, imho was no typo your end because J is too far away from R on the keyboard; you just didn't know name by looks of it of who made the game.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 juin 2011 - 01:09 .

[Zcorck]

Bejos_ wrote...

Hm. They've missed one or two things. Their compaints are valid, though.

-Insufficient tutorial: If you want to have a minimal tutorial, that's fine. But then you really should, in big, bold letters, tell the player that if they press J they can go to their journal to read up on all of instructions again. A lot of people missed that part because they were busy battling when that information was on the screen.

-Bad UI: This isn't debatable. The UI is cumbersome. There is no reason to have so many different screens for your actions. Whenever you prioritise appearance, or mood, or in-game logic for out-of-game logic and ease-of-use, that's bad design. The meditation screen also has a lot of lengthy animations; which might be justifiable, except that when you use things like oils in the inventory screen, there are no animations for those actions.

-Messy controls: It's not just people who can't play the game that have trouble with the controls. And sure, you can get around the animation-lag of combat encounters, but you shouldn't be required to do so. It could have been done better. Was it atrocious? No. It's serviceable. But it could have been done better.

What nobody's brought up yet-- and I'm anticipating flames -- is that the story isn't very well told. Whatever the merits of the story, they really aren't highlighted sufficiently. This is a long game, and few people are going to get through it in a week, let alone one sitting. Cf the info-dump that happens in the epilogue. That's a very big faux pas in the literary genre. Even if you disregard conventions, it's still sloppily done. Staring at [Spoiler!]'s face for 20 minutes while he explains what the entirety of TW2 was about is a very heavy-handed, tiresome way to round up loose threads.

There are one or two other niggles, but those are the major factors against it. Just four things. On balance, it's a very solid game.

Addendum: As for it being an RPG classic ... That's subjective. I suspect for a lot of people it won't be. I like it well enough that it's in my ... top 5, maybe. Is anyone reminded of the Heretic franchise when they play this?
That's what it reminds me of: Heretic + Quest for Glory 4.

They've improved on the tutorial though. Although from 1.0 I can understand the lack of it being a not too good thing for newcomers.

UI was a tad consolized, bad for PC but decent for consoles ^^. Didn't like having too many different screens either but it was a minor annoyance though, same with the meditation for me at least.

They've improved on the clunkiness and responsiveness at least from what I seem to gather from playing it.
Never had combat lag unless I had maxed settings with Uber. So can't really say anything about that. =/

I thought the story was pretty well told, although like many others I think that Chapter 3 could use some more 'meat'.
It felt a bit rushed, but in an approprate-ish way I suppose because you know everything is gonna go down there.
I liked that TW2 was a story in itself but with sequel possibility instead of being made solely so there could be a sequel for TW2 itself.

Xbox'ers will probably have a more refined version due to the criticisms ppl in general have addressed methinks, especially considering how good CDPR have been in addressing the issues with the game.
Still the improvements made from TW1 to TW2 kinda reminds me of the jump from BG1 to BG2.
Hope they keep up the good work!

I'd put TW2 in my top 5 too! Although not sure where to put it amongst those 5 ranks.

[Dragoonlordz]

wolfsite wrote...
Note: also just FYI by making fun of him and his opinion you are justyfing the "Elitism" comments he was making.

He is an idiot, complaining about things that are listed in the manual, here's a thought "learn to read" even children know how to read how about he puts it into practice. Open that mysterious little thing with writing inside and turn to section 3.3.1 on page 16 and read, it's not hard but he is too lazy.

He is the equivilant equivalent of Egorapter "awesome" series but opposite. Blowing things out of proporation and exageration for giggles. Hes a funny guy but his reviews are to be taken with pinch of salt.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 juin 2011 - 01:38 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Yahtzee's clip was pretty funny. It's sad that his problems mostly stem from an inability to do basic things like read the manual, or use the in-game help, but hey it was funny and some of his concerns regarding the tutorial are somewhat valid. Not necessarily the combat, but the lack of in-depth help. The small size of the pop-up windows probably didn't help. I believe one of the fat intrusive, game pausing help menus would've been much better.

Redding teh mannal is teh uber hard these days, so developers should keep that in mind. Making the pop-up menus pause the game and big, perhaps with mini movie demonstrations would not kill CDPR, nor would kill hardcore gamers if the game's difficulty and gameplay is challenging enough. But it would do wonders for people new to the game, series or genre. Then, if such a tutorial pop-up becomes optional, then everyone is happy. Hardcore gamers can just disable it and move on with the game, and for those who don't want to read, they aren't left out in the cold either.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 09 juin 2011 - 01:29 .

[_Aine_]

mrcrusty wrote...

Yahtzee's clip was pretty funny. It's sad that his problems mostly stem from an inability to do basic things like read the manual, or use the in-game help, but hey it was funny and some of his concerns regarding the tutorial are somewhat valid. Not necessarily the combat, but the lack of in-depth help. The small size of the pop-up windows probably didn't help. I believe one of the fat intrusive, game pausing help menus would've been much better.

Redding teh mannal is teh uber hard these days, so developers should keep that in mind. Making the pop-up menus, perhaps with mini movie demonstrations would not kill CDPR, nor would kill hardcore gamers if the game's difficulty and gameplay is challenging enough. But it would do wonders for people new to the game, series or genre.

Yeah but saying "I think we could have used a better tutorial here" would take about 3 seconds tops and wouldn't have been as dramatic, and you know, since reality TV, the truth isn't the truth (aka entertainment)  unless it makes someone cry.  

They could have used earlier on in the prologue to both give the skinny on the world and history ( so people new to the game could learn it) plus teach the controls a bit better for those with an aversion to manuals ) I actually *like* manuals, but with digital downloads, pdf manuals are a bit of a drag....admittedly... 

My thing is that after the FIRST time he tried the game, you would think he would have read the manual before coming back and having a freak out yelling " omg I still don't know intuitively what to do, you know, like the last time I didn't know intuitively what to do!!" 

Why does everything have to be so easy? Well, it doesn't.  But developers should make it easy to *learn* what isn't easy to just *know*.  It doesn't involve a single button combat mode, it involves better, more immersive and detailed tutorials that are still fun.  

Is this really news to people who design games?    *ponders* 

[YohkoOhno]

Dragoonlordz wrote...


100% agree with Shirosaki17 as I have stated elsewhere for the love of god people stop moaning about not knowing every single detail prior to playing or through playing. Every game will have questions about "What does that mean" or "How do I do this and that" and most people have enough common sense to read the manual if stuck or don't understand something they also have enough intelligence to go read up on google if there is something they want to know. In two weeks they have sold (over) half a million copies on PC alone if people honestly think the 360 version will fail they are diluding themselves.

 

It's not a question about "moaning".  I am pointing out that a tutorial is important in today's day and age, and they need to be better about that.  Most games today won't even come with manuals.  Yahtzee was right when he mentioned that people are using this games' lack of accessibility as an excuse to rub in an "I'm superior" attitude.  I expect he's going to write an Extra Punctuation column just to address with it.  

P.s. YohkoOhno it's CDPR not CDPJ if you can't even get the name right you lose credability on knowing what your talking about from the offset, imho was no typo your end because J is too far away from R on the keyboard; you just didn't know name by looks of it of who made the game.

Sadly, you now attack people for having a different opinion--that's pretty much an ad hominem attack.  I lose credibility because I don't want to write out "CD Projeckt" (or however it's spelled)?  That doesn't make sense.  I suppose if I point out you mispelled "Deluding" with "diluding" you'd take offense, not to mention the lack of proper grammar in many of your postings.  

You really need to accept that there are some valid concerns and critiques about the game.  I enjoyed the game, but I see the critics and reviewers points about these flaws.  

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 09 juin 2011 - 01:46 .

[Bejos_]

shantisands wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

Yahtzee's clip was pretty funny. It's sad that his problems mostly stem from an inability to do basic things like read the manual, or use the in-game help, but hey it was funny and some of his concerns regarding the tutorial are somewhat valid. Not necessarily the combat, but the lack of in-depth help. The small size of the pop-up windows probably didn't help. I believe one of the fat intrusive, game pausing help menus would've been much better.

[...]

Yeah but saying "I think we could have used a better tutorial here" would take about 3 seconds tops and wouldn't have been as dramatic, and you know, since reality TV, the truth isn't the truth (aka entertainment)  unless it makes someone cry.  

They could have used earlier on in the prologue to both give the skinny on the world and history ( so people new to the game could learn it) plus teach the controls a bit better for those with an aversion to manuals ) I actually *like* manuals, but with digital downloads, pdf manuals are a bit of a drag....admittedly... 

My thing is that after the FIRST time he tried the game, you would think he would have read the manual before coming back and having a freak out yelling " omg I still don't know intuitively what to do, you know, like the last time I didn't know intuitively what to do!!" 

Why does everything have to be so easy? Well, it doesn't.  But developers should make it easy to *learn* what isn't easy to just *know*.  It doesn't involve a single button combat mode, it involves better, more immersive and detailed tutorials that are still fun.  

Is this really news to people who design games?    *ponders*

I admit to not reading the manual. Like I said, I googled.

I repeat: It didn't sound like Yahtzee had much to complain about. The game left him cold, from what I can tell. So he picked easy topics to **** about. T'was a bit of a lazy review, I thought.

There is a really easy solution to the tutorial problems: Pause the screen for 3 seconds, and in fluorescent font, tell the player, "If you're ever lost as to what to do, just press J to go to your journal. Everything is explained there." (Although that didn't explain mutagens very well ...)

[Dragoonlordz]

YohkoOhno wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...


100% agree with Shirosaki17 as I have stated elsewhere for the love of god people stop moaning about not knowing every single detail prior to playing or through playing. Every game will have questions about "What does that mean" or "How do I do this and that" and most people have enough common sense to read the manual if stuck or don't understand something they also have enough intelligence to go read up on google if there is something they want to know. In two weeks they have sold (over) half a million copies on PC alone if people honestly think the 360 version will fail they are diluding themselves.

 

It's not a question about "moaning".  I am pointing out that a tutorial is important in today's day and age, and they need to be better about that.  Most games today won't even come with manuals.  Yahtzee was right when he mentioned that people are using this games' lack of accessibility as an excuse to rub in an "I'm superior" attitude.  I expect he's going to write an Extra Punctuation column just to address with it.  

P.s. YohkoOhno it's CDPR not CDPJ if you can't even get the name right you lose credability on knowing what your talking about from the offset, imho was no typo your end because J is too far away from R on the keyboard; you just didn't know name by looks of it of who made the game.

Sadly, you now attack people for having a different opinion--that's pretty much an ad hominem attack.  I lose credibility because I don't want to write out "CD Projeckt" (or however it's spelled)?  That doesn't make sense.  I suppose if I point out you mispelled "Deluding" with "diluding" you'd take offense, not to mention the lack of proper grammar in many of your postings.  

You really need to accept that there are some valid concerns and critiques about the game.  I enjoyed the game, but I see the critics and reviewers points about these flaws.  

This is not one of those valid concerns, the tutorial can always be longer the same could be said for every tutorial in every game including portal but does not mean it needs too as for the TW2 did a good job on the tutorial IF you also read the manual which is what it's there for. Most games come with manuals and theres a reason for it which is to cover anything not covered in the tutorial and if you cant be bothered to read it like Yahtzee then it's your fault and not the games. Your getting name wrong shows a lack of information and makes your point's less valid because can't be relied on. It's CDPR the R stands for Red aka CD Projekt Red, thats who made it not CDPJ.

Whats hilarious to me is the fact you moan about how you shouldn't be called lazy then go on and say ~

"I lose credibility because I don't want to write out "CD Projeckt" (or however it's spelled)"

I love irony.

P.s. I didn't attack you for having a different opinion in the part you highlighted in reply too, I corrected your mistake and pointed out the flaw in making such mistakes. Then pointed out the flaw in this argument that everyone throws around these days for EVERY game that seems to come out "It was too hard to understand" or "It didn't cover enough lore, backstory, controls yadda yadda yadda". Google is your best friend if there's something you don't understand about the lore and the manual is your best friend with regards to controls.

The only criticism that is valid regarding the tutorial was it didn't have a box pop up and tell those who lack common sense to read the controls in manual prior to playing and the fact it didn't pause the game when a box popped up but that is all to be honest.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 juin 2011 - 02:07 .

[YohkoOhno]

First off, you are thinking I did not "understand" the game. I did. I am thinking simply in terms of how games are made today, and I am taking into account how games should be made today, according to many industry experts, articles on gamasutra, etc. I am not "Lazy", because I did read it.

However, in this day and age, it is inexcusable to not do adequate tutorials, and I feel they should be called out on it. The fact that you don't agree and appear to demean anybody who makes these points just shows that you seem to have a problem with criticism.   I'm just glad I see others are getting the points made here.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 09 juin 2011 - 02:08 .

[_Aine_]

Bejos_ wrote...

I admit to not reading the manual. Like I said, I googled.

I repeat: It didn't sound like Yahtzee had much to complain about. The game left him cold, from what I can tell. So he picked easy topics to **** about. T'was a bit of a lazy review, I thought.

There is a really easy solution to the tutorial problems: Pause the screen for 3 seconds, and in fluorescent font, tell the player, "If you're ever lost as to what to do, just press J to go to your journal. Everything is explained there." (Although that didn't explain mutagens very well ...)

Yeah, I used google too. Faster than CTRL+F in a .pdf doc      And I agree about your first point about review itself. 

[Dragoonlordz]

YohkoOhno wrote...

First off, you are thinking I did not "understand" the game. I did. I am thinking simply in terms of how games are made today, and I am taking into account how games should be made today, according to many industry experts, articles on gamasutra, etc. I am not "Lazy", because I did read it.

However, in this day and age, it is inexcusable to not do adequate tutorials, and I feel they should be called out on it. The fact that you don't agree and appear to demean anybody who makes these points just shows that you seem to have a problem with criticism.

The difference is the tutorial was adequate if you have common sense and the ability to read what came with the game in the box or even if download comes with manual which you can download too. My criticism is people crying over their own flaws of not reading the manual and too lazy to google when get stuck. No tutorial will ever please everyone because people (like) you will always moan and cry over it could of been longer, better or more in depth when in reality it's their own fault for not looking in the manuals in first place.

[YohkoOhno]

Of course, will Google help people who got it on Day One? You can't search for articles that don't exist yet. And they didn't help matters by deleting their official forums (and not getting them back, apparently).

[KnightofPhoenix]

YohkoOhno wrote...
However, in this day and age, it is inexcusable to not do adequate tutorials, and I feel they should be called out on it. The fact that you don't agree and appear to demean anybody who makes these points just shows that you seem to have a problem with criticism.   I'm just glad I see others are getting the points made here.

While it is a valid criticism, I do not see it as game breaking (nor "inexcusable"), for all it requires is a bit of reading and thinking. In otherwords, making a 5 min video to complain about mostly this is not what I call a criticism, but rather a rant (and one that ends up revealing either idiocy or extreme laziness). Nor do I think it's worth keep posting about, we get it, most gamers this day and age are lazy and need their hand held all the way through.

There are more important things in TW2 to criticize, that do not depend on gamer laziness.

[KnightofPhoenix]

YohkoOhno wrote...

Of course, will Google help people who got it on Day One? You can't search for articles that don't exist yet. And they didn't help matters by deleting their official forums (and not getting them back, apparently).

Then they can stop crying and wait for a few days, if they suck this much.

I really find it mind boggling that people would be this bad on lower difficulties.

[hangmans tree]

Oh for crying out loud. Why do you keep bringing up the tutorial? Its a hardcore RPG damnit!!! For ****s sake, use journal its ALL(most) there! I dont know if young people are able to run Morrowind and find the quest markers anymore - only mentioned/described in THE JOURNAL! no glowing **** floating about, only words...

...what are you reading? Words, words, words...

My perspective on survivability of human race solidifies bit by bit - we wont survive another millenium.