13812 réponses à ce sujet

[FlintlockJazz]

TheMufflon wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

And where do you draw the line between how much and how little is given within each title. Unless you have an answer then stop making up hypotheticals.

Why the answer is perfectly obvious: as much as is entertaining. How much that is depends, of course, on both of the quality of the information and the quality of the writing, a.k.a. how good the author is. As long as a work of fiction provides interesting information in an interesting way it is entertaining.

And how much is that then?  Varies from person to person, some get PO'd at being swamped with too much info, others desire it, some like it 'sleek', others find that shallow.  It's all relative.  Oh, and don't forget this isn't a book but a game we're talking about here, and so it has to fit in with the style of game as well and also be flexible enough to provide choice, etc. 

[Costin_Razvan]

Who is Triss? Why am I waking up next to her?

As someone who romanced someone else in the first game this is something I also want to know.

At what point did the last game end and this one begin?

Intro cinematic ( if you want to call it that ) states clearly the game begins one month after the last game ended.

The time the game begins is also stated there for your previous question.

Who is Vernon Roche, and why should I care?

Vernon Roche is not in the last game, and he introduces himself as commander of the Special Forces. So what the hell do you want here?

Why are these noble families warring with each other?

For the bastard children of Foltest, or did you miss an entire conversation he had with the ambassador?

Why have I chosen the side that I am on, and not the side that I am fighting?

Because you were hired by the king, I think that is made clear as day.

What exactly is the history of the Scoia'tael? Why are the so hateful of humans? Why are human so hateful of them?

Journal entries.

For **** sake not everything needs to be explained in dialogue.

 I only found one entry about them, and--here's another object I have an something DA:O does better--I object to having to spend gold just to find out lore about the world.  It's punishing people who want to learn more about the world.

Because the game offers you an unlimited source of cash? If you don't care about it making cash, then that's your problem. Some books can be found in the game world without buying anyway.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 09 juin 2011 - 10:37 .

[Bejos_]

Anathemic wrote...
Well you might want to reword your stance a bit better, judging from this quote of your orignal post "What nobody's brought up yet-- and I'm anticipating flames -- is that the story isn't very well told" It seemed you were speaking for the palyerbase of TW2 of a whole. So that's why my stance/wording came off as harsh.

Yes Geralt finds early in the game who the murder is, but he murder mystery evolves into another plot entirely IE finding out what happened to Yennefer and Letho's purpose in why he's killing monarchs. It is still a murder mystery, just finding out whose the pupeteer of the muderer (which we find out in the Epilogue, or atleast confirm it in the Epilogue).

How is the prison escape in the prologue badly handled? Sure the stealth system is a bit whacky but it's fairly interesting on what different paths you can take depending on what you did in the flashback sequences.

Act 2 battle? I've only have experienced Ioverth's side, and I say it was good. Not masterpiece, but good. Sometimes I wish I could just kick the damn ladders off the wall, but the dialogue in the battle was pretty good.

Why couldn't we tip the ladders over?! Argh, that was annoying.

I wasn't referring to that battle, though ... [Spoiler Alert! Don't read any more unless you've gotten some way into Act 2!] I had the impression that CDPR wanted some things to go unexplained, so that the Eternal Battle could be interpreted in any number of ways ... instead, the way it was told, it kind of just ... veered off into nowhere, re: the dead sorceress, for instance. I can understand leaving things open to interpretation (e.g. Nynaeve's initiation into the Aes Sedai, in The Wheel of Time series of books), but it requires a deft hand; and CDPR just isn't good enough at telling stories (yet-- hopefully they improve) to achieve it.

The escape wasn't well handled, again because of a lack of understanding, on the player's part, about the finer points of politics in the region. Without having more information to go on, you can understand what's going on with that other, female prisoner, but it doesn't quite have the impact it should have-- that it could have had, if you'd had more information on the political background in the North. In fact, for a game that focuses so strongly on politics, it gets very confusing very quickly into Act 2, and robs the machinations of a lot of their shock/ick/dramatic factor. By Yohko's posts, I gather she feels the same way-- so it's not just me. (But maybe we're both just stupid. Heh.)

And that poisoning ... the quests related to it just trickle away into meaninglessness. You never find out who was behind it all, and it doesn't really matter anyway. From what I can gather, its only worth is to contrive circumstances that further the rest of the plot.

So yeah, for me, the individual parts of the story aren't very original (no, I haven't explained why they're not original, but if I had to sit here and type out the cliches, it would take hours), and aren't very well done, but I manage to enjoy the game anyway. Atmosphere redeems a lot of it. Presentation (graphics, aesthetics, VAs, dialogue) also reduces many of the negatives.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Geralt says "I'm going after [Spoiler] in order to find out more about [Spoiler]-from-my-past" until the end of Act 2. And the "I want to find out why [Spoiler] is killing these kings" isn't one of the reasons we get to choose for our going after [Spoiler] in Act 2.

Actually, now that I think about it, "Assassins of Kings" was a misnomer It should have been called "GD Things Just Keep Getting Worse! Don't Expect It To Make Sense Until Act 3, And Then Only If You Don't Do Something Bad To [Spoiler]!" (That was tongue-in-cheek.)

[Dragoonlordz]

YohkoOhno wrote...

RageGT wrote...
So I'll say it too: "I think people to be honest are trying to pick on the only things they can, namely the smallest things and blow them up huge to belittle the quality of the game because they lack any massive thing they can tear it down with" is basically correct. Incuding some website's schmuck who wants to attract some attention.

And I think people should be more tolerant of other's opinions and not demonize others for having an opinion.

Interestingly, a better discussion about this can be found (yes, it's the Escapist again) here.

http://www.escapistm...efensive?page=1

Then don't praise Yahtzee's review where is rude towards anyone who disagree's with him in the actual clip itself. Then with you using the same term on here for people who disagree with you a few pages back.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 juin 2011 - 10:39 .

[Dragoonlordz]

@Costin_Razvan wrote...

Lol I liked those replies. Made me laugh. Forget wiki, come here for answers.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 juin 2011 - 10:38 .

[TheMufflon]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Quanity is not measured by quality. You can have a extremely high quality peice and you can also have two extremely high quality peices. Both within the same context and yet be seporate entities. So again, how much is enough?

You have obviously misunderstood something very important here, because that response is a complete non-sequitur. I suggest you go back and re-read my previous posts. If you then still do not grasp my point, please explain to me which part you are struggling with.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 09 juin 2011 - 10:40 .

[Dragoonlordz]

TheMufflon wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Quanity is not measured by quality. You can have a extremely high quality peice and you can also have two extremely high quality peices. Both within the same context and yet be seporate entities. So again, how much is enough?

You have obviously misunderstood something very important here, because that response is a complete non-sequiteur. I suggest you go back and re-read my previous posts. If you then still do not grasp my point, please explain to me whic h part you are struggeling with.

She is saying she wants to know it all I am saying it is all explained within each aspect, TW1 explains the world to a degree and the books do the same and TW2 explains what is currently going on in that world that is affecting the story of that game. How much will please some people is subjective and is personal taste, it is not a flaw in the game itself to not cover every single thing that is in the books and the first title.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 juin 2011 - 10:45 .

[DragonRageGT]

Lord Phoebus wrote...

I'm finally playing the game, decided to wait for a couple of patches and to finish my Witcher replay. I also managed to pick it up for $30. All in all I'm not sure what to make of it, although I've only played through the prologue and I guess about half-way through chapter 1.

Installation was easy, and I'm glad there is no DRM. However configuration was a pain, I had to text edit the user.ini file since the configuration utility was useless.

Gameplay-wise it seems a bit easier than the early chapters of TW 1, I'm playing on hard and I haven't had to use potions, bombs, traps or any sign other than Aard. Blocking seems a little pointless, since rolling around like a man on fire seems to be a better defensive strategy, as long as you're patient the enemies give you an opening to attack. I think I liked the rolling around and combos from the original a bit better. I'm not too sure how I feel about the QTEs either, why am I clicking my mouse to open a gate? The exposition could have been better in game, at the very least it would have been nice to set/check the keyboard bindings while playing instead of having to check the manual, which is a pdf so I have to Alt-Tab out of the game to check (But hey the game doesn't crash when I Alt-Tab which is pretty good). The mechanic for the mutagens could have been better too. The mini-games are better than the original with the exception of Dice-poker, I don't really see the point of making the player roll with his mouse.

The plot seems okay, I haven't gotten deep enough to really comment. From the first game it seems like the medallion should have started vibrating when Geralt encountered the assassin (like it did with Azar/Raymond), but I guess it was necessary for the plot. There was also the conveniently placed ballista that wasn't on the wall, but was placed by the rebel forces inside the keep pointed towards their own stronghold and couple other contrivances like that. But that's nitpicking, for the most part the gameworld is immersive, fast paced and it holds my interest.

Any way those are my first impressions.

Yeah, let's us know more aftger you played more. But you could have: Opened the Options/Input screen from the launcher and setup your preferences for keys, Read the Journal where all info is listed including which button does what, when you actually reached that part of the game that uses that button and a few more little things.

Dice poker is this way so people can throw dice out of the board in anger! I highly recommend you get the new board texture mod with some wonderful red head painted on it. Makes Dice Poker a favourite mini game! (name of the mod is: Hot Dices and Board _CONTAIN NUDITY_ Updated - I'm not linking it though.

[YohkoOhno]

So yeah, for me, the individual parts of the story aren't very original (no, I haven't explained why they're not original, but if I had to sit here and type out the cliches, it would take hours), and aren't very well done, but I manage to enjoy the game anyway. Atmosphere redeems a lot of it. Presentation (graphics, aesthetics, VAs, dialogue) also reduces many of the negatives.

True, I think in this case the atmosphere and the total of everything they do right is making up for several of these storytelling flaws. But ignoring the flaws doesn't mean they don't exist.

As far as cliche's go, I think archetypes and tropes are just as important as deconstructivism.  I'd rather have a well-done story that hits those archetypes/tropes and ends up being a wonderful experience than one that is "edgy" or "original", and fails to hit emotional levels.  Which is one of the reason why I think DA:O is still better in theme and story than TW2.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 09 juin 2011 - 10:46 .

[Dragoonlordz]

YohkoOhno wrote...

So yeah, for me, the individual parts of the story aren't very original (no, I haven't explained why they're not original, but if I had to sit here and type out the cliches, it would take hours), and aren't very well done, but I manage to enjoy the game anyway. Atmosphere redeems a lot of it. Presentation (graphics, aesthetics, VAs, dialogue) also reduces many of the negatives.

True, I think in this case the atmosphere and the total of everything they do right is making up for several of these storytelling flaws. But ignoring the flaws doesn't mean they don't exist.

As far as cliche's go, I think archetypes and tropes are just as important as deconstructivism.  I'd rather have a well-done story that hits those archetypes/tropes and ends up being a wonderful experience than one that is "edgy" or "original", and fails to hit emotional levels.  Which is one of the reason why I think DA:O is still better in theme and story than TW2.

The story was good in TW2, your personal preference of how you like your stories told and context of those stories again it's not a flaw in the game. It's personal taste.

We get it already you like DAO more than TW2 you have stated that over half a dozen times now.

People moan about how TW2 fans hijack DA2 threads and clearly your doing the same here imho.

[YohkoOhno]

The story was good in TW2, your personal preference of how you like your stories told and context of those stories again it's not a flaw in the game. It's personal taste.

Which is true. I don't see why you keep bringing that up.

People moan about how TW2 fans hijack DA2 threads and clearly your doing the same here imho.

This is not the "Witcher Fanboy" or the "only positive statements about The Witcher 2" thread, it is the one thread you are allowed to discuss TW2 which is pretty much off-topic on Bioware's forums. (You can always discuss it on GOG or elsewhere). Stop being offended by me having an opinion, and you don't have to always respond to my discussions with the others here. I am not going to "be quiet" just because you don't like what I have to say.  (In fact, I am being very polite, where you appear to be getting close to violating the rules of the forums)

Talk about cognative dissonance...

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 09 juin 2011 - 10:56 .

[TheMufflon]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

She is saying [...]

Ah, there's your problem. You are somehow under the misapprehension that I and YohkoOhno are making the same argument. We are not. In fact, our arguments are only tangentially related.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 09 juin 2011 - 11:08 .

[DragonRageGT]

YohkoOhno wrote...

RageGT wrote...
So I'll say it too: "I think people to be honest are trying to pick on the only things they can, namely the smallest things and blow them up huge to belittle the quality of the game because they lack any massive thing they can tear it down with" is basically correct. Incuding some website's schmuck who wants to attract some attention.

And I think people should be more tolerant of other's opinions and not demonize others for having an opinion.

Interestingly, a better discussion about this can be found (yes, it's the Escapist again) here.

http://www.escapistm...efensive?page=1

Yeah. The guy asks two questions. Here's one answer:

A) People says "manual" when in fact the IN GAME Journal (hotkey J) has all the info, beautifully written by Dandelion, the Bard of "Savior of Queens", which is a game that some "reviewers" would most certainly love:

THE BARD: Saviors of Queens

This game is an ultimate answer towards all the players that always wanted easy, short and fun adventure. There's no violence, no complex storyline and definitely no morality. It's a really short game (no more than 2 hours of gameplay with autoplay feature on the easiest difficulty setting) that will not burden you with anything gameplay-related.

Let desire, wine and music guide you!

Please scroll down to find out more about our brand new title - check out the official Announcement Trailer and the latest exclusive Developer's Diary. In case you would like to pre-order THE BARD: Saviors of Queens, we will do all our best to help you.

Thanks for visiting our new project's website.

CD Projekt RED Team

Watch the videos and drool!

http://www.saviors-o...com/index2.html

The game for the new generation of gamers! Autoplay feature makes me ROFLMAO!

--

Because it may result that, their bashing instead of trying using their brains (reading a fraking in-game Journal) and learning how to play a masterpiece, The Bard: Savior of Queen actually come to be!

Modifié par RageGT, 09 juin 2011 - 11:01 .

[Dragoonlordz]

YohkoOhno wrote...

-snip-

I brought it up because you did so. It was in reply to your comment and not a statement out of the blue. I haven't breached any forums rules and not even come close. We have a disagreement where you view flaws where I see nothing more than personal taste, where you quote a review which belittle's people of different opinion then get annoyed when I reply about that.

Tell you what I'll do, I'll let you rave on about how TW2 has 'flaws' because didn't match your personal taste as much as you like from here on out. But it won't change the fact your implying flaws where there was in reality no flaw instead merely your preferences.

[Lord Phoebus]

RageGT wrote...

Yeah, let's us know more aftger you played more. But you could have: Opened the Options/Input screen from the launcher and setup your preferences for keys, Read the Journal where all info is listed including which button does what, when you actually reached that part of the game that uses that button and a few more little things.

Yeah, the options screen messes up my video options, so that I have to reset them with a text editor.  While the info is there in the journal, it isn't really set up for quick reference (i.e. you can't see what all the keys do at once). 

[Dragoonlordz]

TheMufflon wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

She is saying [...]

Ah, there's your problem. You are somehow under the misapprehension that I and YohkoOhno are making the same argument. We are not. In fact, our arguments are only tangentially related.

And your original point was irrelevant as I already said. Quality is subjective with regard to story and even how it's approached or given to the audience. Some like one thing while others prefer other methods. You made a blanket statement and nothing more just hoping to spark a different debate.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 juin 2011 - 11:12 .

[YohkoOhno]

I brought it up because you did so. It was in reply to your comment and not a statement out of the blue. I haven't breached any forums rules and not even come close. We have a disagreement where you view flaws where I see nothing more than personal taste, where you quote a review which belittle's people of different opinion then get annoyed when I reply about that.

I didn't write a review, I simply posted a link to that and said that he had a few good points. In fact, the way you've been behaving here is sort of proving him right.  If I didn't know any better, I'd think you are simply wanting to get the last word in the argument, and I don't plan on letting you off the hook that easily.  

Tell you what I'll do, I'll let you rave on about how TW2 has 'flaws' because didn't match your personal taste as much as you like from here on out. But it won't change the fact your implying flaws where there was in reality no flaw instead merely your preferences.

What you seem to miss is that trying to prove that an opinion or a critics review of the game having flaws is an opinion similar to how a critic reviews movies. You seem to think that you're opinion of the game having no flaws is based on "fact", where mine is based on "opinion" without merit. Besides bringing up some flaws that certain others agree with, there's no real objective standard to that type of criteria.   If "everything's subjective", why is your opinion better than mine, it is your opinion.

I've been playing Devil's Advocate in part because I am a fan of the game but I wish it was better so it could sell more, for instance. It's weird that you can't understand that.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 09 juin 2011 - 11:14 .

[TheMufflon]

RageGT wrote...

Yeah. The guy asks two questions. Here's one answer:

No. He asked three questions. And while you failed to answer his first question, you clearly proved that it was a valid question.

[Anathemic]

Bejos_ wrote...

Why couldn't we tip the ladders over?! Argh, that was annoying.

I wasn't referring to that battle, though ... [Spoiler Alert! Don't read any more unless you've gotten some way into Act 2!] I had the impression that CDPR wanted some things to go unexplained, so that the Eternal Battle could be interpreted in any number of ways ... instead, the way it was told, it kind of just ... veered off into nowhere, re: the dead sorceress, for instance. I can understand leaving things open to interpretation (e.g. Nynaeve's initiation into the Aes Sedai, in The Wheel of Time series of books), but it requires a deft hand; and CDPR just isn't good enough at telling stories (yet-- hopefully they improve) to achieve it.

The escape wasn't well handled, again because of a lack of understanding, on the player's part, about the finer points of politics in the region. Without having more information to go on, you can understand what's going on with that other, female prisoner, but it doesn't quite have the impact it should have-- that it could have had, if you'd had more information on the political background in the North. In fact, for a game that focuses so strongly on politics, it gets very confusing very quickly into Act 2, and robs the machinations of a lot of their shock/ick/dramatic factor. By Yohko's posts, I gather she feels the same way-- so it's not just me. (But maybe we're both just stupid. Heh.)

And that poisoning ... the quests related to it just trickle away into meaninglessness. You never find out who was behind it all, and it doesn't really matter anyway. From what I can gather, its only worth is to contrive circumstances that further the rest of the plot.

So yeah, for me, the individual parts of the story aren't very original (no, I haven't explained why they're not original, but if I had to sit here and type out the cliches, it would take hours), and aren't very well done, but I manage to enjoy the game anyway. Atmosphere redeems a lot of it. Presentation (graphics, aesthetics, VAs, dialogue) also reduces many of the negatives.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Geralt says "I'm going after [Spoiler] in order to find out more about [Spoiler]-from-my-past" until the end of Act 2. And the "I want to find out why [Spoiler] is killing these kings" isn't one of the reasons we get to choose for our going after [Spoiler] in Act 2.

Actually, now that I think about it, "Assassins of Kings" was a misnomer It should have been called "GD Things Just Keep Getting Worse! Don't Expect It To Make Sense Until Act 3, And Then Only If You Don't Do Something Bad To [Spoiler]!" (That was tongue-in-cheek.)

Dead sorceress in meaning the cutscene where Shilard killed her? That sorceress was part of the Lodge, and the Lodge, put in simplest terms, in the game, is bad.

As for the escape, I think you mean Aryan's mother (whose name escapes me atm). I'm pretty sure that Foltest's monologue when you climb up the watchtower does a pretty good job in simplifying the problem (which caused the war) between him and the La Valettes/Nobles. So the impact is more or less the same depending if the player is paying attention.

The poisoning is generally agreed upon to be left in the open. However in Act 3 (if you let Stennis live in Act 2) it will initiate a cutscene sequence in Geralt calling him a "poisoner", this might jsut be Geralt's view, but still it's something to go on. But I agree, it's not one of the strong points, but interesting nonetheless.

Actually Geralt is looking for the kingslayer to figure out his past in the middle of Act 2 (talk to Dandelion).

[Dragoonlordz]

YohkoOhno wrote...

I didn't write a review, I simply posted a link to that and said that he had a few good points. In fact, the way you've been behaving here is sort of proving him right.

When you make statements that are baseless then expect a reply.

What you seem to miss is that trying to prove that an opinion or a critics review of the game having flaws is an opinion similar to how a critic reviews movies. You seem to think that you're opinion of the game having no flaws is based on "fact", where mine is based on "opinion" without merit. Besides bringing up some flaws that certain others agree with, there's no real objective standard to that type of criteria.

I've been playing Devil's Advocate in part because I am a fan of the game but I wish it was better so it could sell more, for instance. It's weird that you can't understand that.

No you have not been stating flaws within the game. You have been stating your personal tastes and then tried to implant that as a design flaw within the game. TW2 has sold more on it's released platform in the relative timeframe of comparrison than ME, ME2, DAO and DA2 each (platform of PC). It will do the same on the 360 when comes out. There will be a sequel it will stick to the roots of Witcher franchise and will sell even better.

Witcher 2 PC ~first 2 weeks not including digital sales = 293,977

Mass Effect PC same rules = 24,436
Mass Effect 2 PC again same rules = 59,531
Dragon Age Origins PC (A game you say is better) = 78,002
Dragon Age 2 PC same rules = 181,832

So thanks for your concern but they don't need your help.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 juin 2011 - 11:25 .

[TheMufflon]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Quality is subjective with regard to story and even how it's approached or given to the audience.

True objectivity is, in practice, wholly unnecessary while there is a wide reaching consensus. That is the axiom upon which all reviewing is based. And the overwhelming consensus is that telling a story through terse wikia entries is a terrible idea, because how information is conveyed matters. If a game has to rely on such means of conveying information, it is for all intents and purposes flawed.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 09 juin 2011 - 11:23 .

[YohkoOhno]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

No you have not been stating flaws within the game. You have been stating your personal tastes and then tried to implant that as a design flaw within the game. TW2 has sold more on it's released platform in the relative timeframe of comparrison than ME, ME2, DAO and DA2 each (platform of PC). It will do the same on the 360 when comes out. There will be a sequel it will stick to the roots of Witcher franchise and will sell even better.

I think I've made statements that just said the Tutorial just needs to be a little more immersive, etc.  An insufficient tutorial is a definate design flaw in this day and age.  You can disagree with me if you like.

But now we are getting into flaws with facts.  Where exactly are you getting THOSE sales figures from.  CDPJ has (from their own statements) sold Half a Million so far.  But according to VGChartz, it has sold this much.

http://gamrreview.vg...ssins-of-kings/

Now the Witcher people have said they've sold 500,000.  But since the people doing Digital Downloads are the hardcore fans, it is very unlikely sales will increase much from that front.  And those numbers for America are not very good.

The sales in the first few weeks are likely to be the highest they will ever be.  They never go up unless it's a holiday season.  

And I'm not sure why the first week matters--it will be the totals that count in the end.  But I'll make sure to remember this 10 weeks from now and see where the game's sales are.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 09 juin 2011 - 11:29 .

[Morroian]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

No you have not been stating flaws within the game. You have been stating your personal tastes and then tried to implant that as a design flaw within the game. 

More people than just Yohko have raised the same criticisms as a flaw in the game. IMHO its a flaw in the game. 

[Bejos_]

YohkoOhno wrote...

So yeah, for me, the individual parts of the story aren't very original (no, I haven't explained why they're not original, but if I had to sit here and type out the cliches, it would take hours), and aren't very well done, but I manage to enjoy the game anyway. Atmosphere redeems a lot of it. Presentation (graphics, aesthetics, VAs, dialogue) also reduces many of the negatives.

True, I think in this case the atmosphere and the total of everything they do right is making up for several of these storytelling flaws. But ignoring the flaws doesn't mean they don't exist.

As far as cliche's go, I think archetypes and tropes are just as important as deconstructivism.  I'd rather have a well-done story that hits those archetypes/tropes and ends up being a wonderful experience than one that is "edgy" or "original", and fails to hit emotional levels.  Which is one of the reason why I think DA:O is still better in theme and story than TW2.

I agree with your stance on archetypes. I'm against tropes, however. It seems like they're in every medium nowadays, though, so I can't really mark down for their inclusion.

There's also an important difference between archetypes and cliches. Archetypes tap deeper into the entertainee's psyche, which allows for him or her to be more invested in the story while simultaneously allowing a deeper understanding of it; whereas cliches prevent the entertainee's engagement, and prevent that kind of instinctual connection. DA:O largely has archetypes as characters, while TW2 largely has cliches as characters.

I think Foltest is a great example of an archetype, though. That's one of the characters that was really well done in TW. Addendum: Actually, the whole of the prologue is really well done, at least in terms of archetypes. (I, personally, actually enjoy everything about the prologue, at least up until the jail sequence.) The story does lose a bit of that joie de vivre by Act 1, some more in Act 2, and becomes quite limp by Act 3. I think the question to be taken from this is how to more adequately interweave story and gameplay elements. ME2 (despite all of its other flaws) does this fairly well, as does DA:O.

Further addendum: Possibly the best archetype I've ever experienced in a game is DA:O's Flemeth. The shortcomings of DA2's team (in regard to story and storytelling) are summed up perfectly in the way in which they presented Flemeth in the sequel. In DA:O she was an archetype. In DA2, she wasn't even a cliche. She was just ... nothing. She didn't mean anything. All the gravitas was gone.

Modifié par Bejos_, 09 juin 2011 - 11:46 .

[Dragoonlordz]

TheMufflon wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Quality is subjective with regard to story and even how it's approached or given to the audience.

True objectivity is, in practice, wholly unnecessary while there is a wide reaching consensus. That is the axiom upon which all reviewing is based. And the overwhelming consensus is that telling a story through terse wikia entries is a terrible idea, because how information is conveyed matters. If a game has to rely on such means of conveying information, it is for all intents and purposes flawed.

Didn't say it relies on it, I said as optional information you can obtain more via the internet whether thats wiki or you could obtain that information via the DVD free with copy you purchase or online again. You could obtain that information via playing the first title or even covers alot of it in the second title, also could obtain it via books too.

The fact is all that information is optional, all the information required to play and understand the game was in the game everything else you wish to know is personal taste which is why Yohko arguing about it being a design flaw is a fallacy as far as I am concerned.

It is her personal preference to have more information than is required to play and to understand the world in which the plot and story takes place. Do you need to know about NPC 163 from the first game in order to play the second ? No. Do you need to know whats happening in a kingdom you are neither present or taking part in? No. If you want that information it is available from other sources and it is not a flaw within the game to not supply what is already available elsewhere and more importantly not relevant to the progression of the story.