13812 réponses à ce sujet

[Dragoonlordz]

YohkoOhno wrote...
-snip-

Already told you it did not include digital sales. What part of that did you not understand?

[YohkoOhno]

Digital sales are unlikely to rise. My guess is 90% of all digital sales will be done in the first week from pre-orders, especially with the GOG promotion. So I doubt that's going to make much of a dent after the first week, since all the hard-core got it that way--unless they want Geralt's bust figurine.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 09 juin 2011 - 11:37 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Still at it? What was the point of all this again?

[YohkoOhno]

Bejos_ wrote...
I agree with your stance on archetypes. I'm against tropes, however. It seems like they're in every medium nowadays, though, so I can't really mark down for their inclusion.

There's also an important difference between archetypes and cliches. Archetypes tap deeper into the entertainee's psychee, which allows for him or her to be more invested in the story while simultaneously allowing a deeper understanding of it; whereas cliches prevent the entertainee's engagement, and prevent that kind of instinctual connection. DA:O largely has archetypes as characters, while TW2 largely has cliches as characters.

I think Foltest is a great example of an archetype, though. That's one of the characters that was really well done in TW.

I agree with that second paragraph.  Of course, other people disagree, say "Bioware just does the same characters each game, etc".    

The big thing about Foltest though is that he was a character from a novel, so maybe that was more helpful on that front and prevented him from being a cliche.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 09 juin 2011 - 11:40 .

[Dragoonlordz]

YohkoOhno wrote...

Digital sales are unlikely to rise. My guess is 90% of all digital sales will be done in the first week from pre-orders, especially with the GOG promotion. So I doubt that's going to make much of a dent after the first week, since all the hard-core got it that way--unless they want Geralt's bust figurine.

Highlighted the reality part.

The sales will continue to go on at a reduced rate as with all games the difference is they started higher and are still going on higher rate than the other titles I mentioned. If stays true to that 'rate' it will sell more than all four I mentioned. But unlike you I don't rely on fortune cookies to make statements (over exaggerated you seem to like that as shown by your love of yahtzee) I base my opinion on what is happening right now and what the physical trend and rate is at the moment. As it is right now it's selling faster and better than all four I previously mentioned. I would be more surprised if it radically changed out of nowhere which is what your suggesting.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 juin 2011 - 11:44 .

[Dragoonlordz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Still at it? What was the point of all this again?

Trying to get across the difference between personal taste and preference compared to a actual design flaw with the game.

[KnightofPhoenix]

YohkoOhno wrote...
Let me give you a specific example. In TW1, there were several good books on the politics of various elements of the world. Those are more or less lacking in TW2. One thing that I felt could have been done better is letting people know more about Nilfgaard. They turned out to be the major antagonists, but it would have been nice to have seen a little more information on why that nation was so feared by the northern kingdoms.

Yea, I am sorry but this is not accurate at all. You have books in TW2 about all this. In Flotsam, the first discussion you have with companions is about politics.

And many NPCs talk about Nilfgaard, and the war with the North and you even have the opportunity to speak with its ambassador. We know as much about Nilfgaard, as Origins told us about Orlais. In fact, we know more about the war with Nilfgaard than Ferelden's war for independence.

I love Origins, but it is nothing compared to TW2 in terms of political intrigue. Neither in content nor presentation.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 juin 2011 - 11:45 .

[YohkoOhno]

First of all, I have gone to the VGChartz, and your comparisons are flawed because (a) in many cases, the PC sales aren't counted, or have incomplete data. Mass Effect 2 for instance, does not show sales on the PC for North America. So how can you compare the data effectively? You can't. Your logic is flawed there.

I suspect you want to believe this because you're afraid of not getting a sequel if it doesn't sell well enough. That's fine, but belief won't change reality. I would like this game to have a sequel but all my wishes won't make it reality.  (It's very possible, for instance, that Atari might drop it if it doesn't sell well enough here).  

I wouldn't want that to happen, but I won't let emotional attachements cloud my view of reality.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 09 juin 2011 - 11:48 .

[TheMufflon]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Didn't say it relies on it, I said [...]

You said a whole bunch of thing, most of which I don't particularly care about and only one of which I replied to. In case you have forgotten (unlikely as though it seems, since it's only been about an hour or two) allow me to reiterate:

YokhoOhno said 

You should never have to "go to the Internet" to find out Lore that should be in the game. Period.

To which you replied:

Yes you should, its simply personal taste how deep you want to go. Period.

That is the statement to which I replied and argued against.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 09 juin 2011 - 11:47 .

[Dragoonlordz]

TheMufflon wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Didn't say it relies on it, I said [...]

You said a whole bunch of thing, most of which I don't particularly care about and only one of which I replied to. In case you have forgotten (unlikely as though it seems, since it's only been about an hour or two) allow me to reiterate:

YokhoOhno said 

You should never have to "go to the Internet" to find out Lore that should be in the game. Period.

To which you replied:

Yes you should, its simply personal taste how deep you want to go. Period.

That is the statement to which I replied and argued against.

And what should be in the game is subjective with regard to background and lore. Which is where I have been arguing with her because she wants it all in game it appears, when in reailty that is niether viable or any reason why it should be dictated as an actual design flaw in the game because of something subjective. That is the crux of the whole point.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 juin 2011 - 11:55 .

[Dragoonlordz]

YohkoOhno wrote...

First of all, I have gone to the VGChartz, and your comparisons are flawed because (a) in many cases, the PC sales aren't counted, or have incomplete data. Mass Effect 2 for instance, does not show sales on the PC for North America. So how can you compare the data effectively? You can't. Your logic is flawed there.

I suspect you want to believe this because you're afraid of not getting a sequel if it doesn't sell well enough. That's fine, but belief won't change reality. I would like this game to have a sequel but all my wishes won't make it reality.  (It's very possible, for instance, that Atari might drop it if it doesn't sell well enough here).  

I wouldn't want that to happen, but I won't let emotional attachements cloud my view of reality.

And you would have to assume the USA only sales are triple that of the rest of the world which is what it would take in most of those cases in order to become higher than TW2 sales on PC.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 juin 2011 - 11:55 .

[YohkoOhno]

And your assuming the USA only sales are triple that of the rest of the world which is what it would take in most of those case in order to become higher than TW2 sales on PC.

I simply want better data. But if you look at other VGC for other games, US sales usually outdo European sales on most games. This can vary. Sometimes it's equal, other times it's 10x or more, depending on the type of game.

[Morroian]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Still at it? What was the point of all this again?

Trying to get across the difference between personal taste and preference compared to a actual design flaw with the game.

Yabbut you're wrong, at least IMHO (you do get that what constitutes a design flaw is itself an opinion not objective fact right), and getting increasingly shrill, your current avatar is most apt. 

[Bejos_]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Still at it? What was the point of all this again?

Erm, some of us like these discussions. We imagine they have a dress code of: Monocle mandatory.

It's just interesting to have serious discussions about the artier merits of a game because these discussions are so rare.

[Dragoonlordz]

YohkoOhno wrote...

And your assuming the USA only sales are triple that of the rest of the world which is what it would take in most of those case in order to become higher than TW2 sales on PC.

I simply want better data. But if you look at other VGC for other games, US sales usually outdo European sales on most games. This can vary. Sometimes it's equal, other times it's 10x or more, depending on the type of game.

And vice versa you can't assume it is triple the sales based on bias of your love of the titles. The reality of the only data we have to go on shows a higher selling rate to TW2 than others and that is the only data we have.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 juin 2011 - 11:59 .

[YohkoOhno]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yea, I am sorry but this is not accurate at all. You have books in TW2 about all this. In Flotsam, the first discussion you have with companions is about politics.
I love Origins, but it is nothing compared to TW2 in terms of political intrigue. Neither in content nor presentation. 

I did not find any books on that subject.  Granted, I didn't loot every chest in Floatsam either, but it was only late in Act 1 that I discovered you were allowed to loot people's homes without consequence.  (That's a stupid thing both DA and TW2 share).  I looked at my last game save (before I meet the Kingslayer for the last time) and didn't find an entry for that individual.

The conversations were very vague and talked about them being a threat, but there was no backstory.  At least with Orlais, there was at least a codex entry and some conversation with a primary companion about it.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 10 juin 2011 - 12:02 .

[YohkoOhno]

Dragoonlordz wrote...
And vice versa you can't assume it is triple the sales based on bias of your love of the titles. The reality of the only data we have to go on shows a higher selling rate to TW2 than others and that is the only data we have.

Again, that doesn't mean success.  I'm not biased based on "love of the titles", I am looking at chart figures for several games on the site.  There are some objectively predictable trends that we can assume apply to this game because they apply to others.  That's the fundemental point of statistics.

[Dragoonlordz]

Morroian wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Still at it? What was the point of all this again?

Trying to get across the difference between personal taste and preference compared to a actual design flaw with the game.

Yabbut you're wrong, at least IMHO (you do get that what constitutes a design flaw is itself an opinion not objective fact right), and getting increasingly shrill, your current avatar is most apt. 

This is not one of them. Lore which is presented via in game and outside, which has come to be noted she never even read all of what was in the game in the first place, does not constitiute a flaw. Not when everything you would need to know and more to progress the story and learn backgrounds of people within the plot is within the game itself. Any additional information is obtained as a preference and is available from many sources. They do not have to all be converged within every single title in a series.

Thats the whole reason I responded to her initial comment and why has gone on for so long because she cant see that and talking to her is like talking to a brick wall. She is using that preference as a flaw within the game when in reality if she actually wants all the lore of all media about a title within each title every time shes in for a world of dissapointment for the rest of her gaming life. That and she praised someone who belittled others.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 10 juin 2011 - 12:09 .

[Dragoonlordz]

YohkoOhno wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...
And vice versa you can't assume it is triple the sales based on bias of your love of the titles. The reality of the only data we have to go on shows a higher selling rate to TW2 than others and that is the only data we have.

Again, that doesn't mean success.  I'm not biased based on "love of the titles", I am looking at chart figures for several games on the site.  There are some objectively predictable trends that we can assume apply to this game because they apply to others.  That's the fundemental point of statistics.

Your doom and gloom based off assumptions is far, far less likley than the continued success it is currently having.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

YohkoOhno wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yea, I am sorry but this is not accurate at all. You have books in TW2 about all this. In Flotsam, the first discussion you have with companions is about politics.
I love Origins, but it is nothing compared to TW2 in terms of political intrigue. Neither in content nor presentation. 

I did not find any books on that subject.  Granted, I didn't loot every chest in Floatsam either, but it was only late in Act 1 that I discovered you were allowed to loot people's homes without consequence.  (That's a stupid thing both DA and TW2 share).  I looked at my last game save (before I meet the Kingslayer for the last time) and didn't find an entry for that individual.

The conversations were very vague and talked about them being a threat, but there was no backstory.  At least with Orlais, there was at least a codex entry and some conversation with a primary companion about it.

There are vendors that sell books in all major "hubs", a lot of them are about monsters but most of them are about backstory and lore.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 10 juin 2011 - 12:08 .

[YohkoOhno]

There are vendors that sell books in all major "hubs".

Ah, that's the other rub, I dislike the game having to charge you to learn lore, unless it's for a game-specific thing. I prefer the DA way of some papers you find lying around.

[KnightofPhoenix]

YohkoOhno wrote...
I did not find any books on that subject.  Granted, I didn't loot every chest in Floatsam either, but it was only late in Act 1 that I discovered you were allowed to loot people's homes without consequence.  (That's a stupid thing both DA and TW2 share).

The conversations were very vague and talked about them being a threat, but there was no backstory.  At least with Orlais, there was at least a codex entry and some conversation with a primary companion about it.

You can buy books.

There was a backstory, it's explained in Act 2 in regards to Brenna specifically. And is referenced in many conversations with major NPCs, including Ambassador Shilard. And we have several letters. And we found out about the Emperor's policies in regards to sorceresses and nobles...etc. Plus, Journal entries shed a lot of light. Finally Letho tells us quite a bit at the end. It's all there.

Furthermore, Nilfgaard is not integral to the plot until the revelation at the very end. The focus was the assassinations, the pontar valley, the invasion of Vergen and the conference at Loc Muinne. Putting too much focus on Nilfgaard would have exposed the plot twist.

The codex entry for Orlais was as vague as the convos we had, and what Leliana told us had nothing political about it save for "the game", which is more tied to her own story than the plot.

Origins almost completely failed to explain the Civil war and had one idiotic side quest for it. The Landsmeet is a joke compared to the Loc Muinne Conference. And finally, the bipolarity it has, which is shared by all Bioware games, has nothing overly complex or intriguing about it, and it's not how real politics work. Real politics involve a multitude of factions, all playing their own game and the TW2 pulled it off almost perfectly.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 juin 2011 - 12:13 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

YohkoOhno wrote...

There are vendors that sell books in all major "hubs".

Ah, that's the other rub, I dislike the game having to charge you to learn lore, unless it's for a game-specific thing. I prefer the DA way of some papers you find lying around.

First, they are dirt cheap. Second, you can find money easily. Thirdly, if you value knowledge, then you shouldn't be sad to spend 60 orens.

[Dragoonlordz]

YohkoOhno wrote...

There are vendors that sell books in all major "hubs".

Ah, that's the other rub, I dislike the game having to charge you to learn lore, unless it's for a game-specific thing. I prefer the DA way of some papers you find lying around.

And how many points did you mark the game down for that if I might ask?

I honestly get the impression nothing ever made will ever satisfy you, you are the kind of person who would nit pick at everything in this entire world and beyond from now to eternity.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 10 juin 2011 - 12:15 .

[YohkoOhno]

Dragoonlordz wrote...
And how many points did you mark the game down for that if I might ask?

Sigh--You now just seem to want to get the last word.  I am trying to give you an out by moving on to discuss things with others, but you keep on with bringing up what I talk about with others.  Just ignore me if you don't like what I have to say.  I'm not leaving the thread.   I don't think you realize that you're arguments are starting to annoy a few other people.

In any event, I doubt this reduces it significantly, but I still think keeping the lore in books that you have to purchase is a poor way to encourage reading about the lore of the game.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 10 juin 2011 - 12:16 .