Aller au contenu

Photo

The Legendary "The Witcher 2" RPG.


13812 réponses à ce sujet

#7426
KnightofPhoenix

KnightofPhoenix
  • Members
  • 21 527 messages

Bejos_ wrote...

This has obvious analogies in RL history. France ... That worked out. [Ok, that depends on your perspective ;)] There was a lot of upheaval for a few hundred years, and then things became mostly ... peaceful-ish.

Edit: I haven't slept all night. That was a flawed analogy. What I was trying to say with that analogy is, once an idea catches on (and I don't think egalitarianism is an unappealing notion), it's hard to quell. How much it would catch on in the Witcher world is anybody's guess, though.


Yes, the analogy was flawed. France is not as vulnerable as the Pontar Valley geographically, for one. Even when France lost, it still managed to impose itself as a major player (Congress of Vienna).

In any case, rarely do ideas work if not backed by concrete policies and a strong framework, institutional or otherwise. I personally question Saskia's ability to pull it off, but who knows. She could have an heir who can.

#7427
KnightofPhoenix

KnightofPhoenix
  • Members
  • 21 527 messages

YohkoOhno wrote...
Other Charismatic movements include changes in religions, such as the rise of Protestant religions out of the Catholic dominated Wester World.  It probably depends if the principle is strong enough to survive on its own.  After all, Feudalism eventually died out in our world.


The protestant movement was supported and patronised by states. That's how it worked.

#7428
Bejos_

Bejos_
  • Members
  • 643 messages

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

YohkoOhno wrote...

Bejos is right, if you study history, it's a lot more nuanced that people think. Charismatic leaders can have a different effect based on culture and history. Chairman Mao's been dead for years yet China still has kept alive a lot of his principles--which was a very radical change from what came before.


Not really. In rethoric, yea they base themselves on Mao's symbol. But in regards to actual concret policies, it's based of Deng Xiaoping.

And I have studied history.


China has a long, empirical, dictatorial history, so people are used to doing what they're told in the name of the country. I don't know enough about the Witcher world to make the supposition that there's an analogy to be made, in this case. (Also, we should maybe keep away from modern-day political topics, seeing as forum rules require that of us.)

#7429
Bejos_

Bejos_
  • Members
  • 643 messages

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In any case, rarely do ideas work if not backed by concrete policies and a strong framework, institutional or otherwise. I personally question Saskia's ability to pull it off, but who knows. She could have an heir who can.


Ehhr-- she's conceivably been alive for a very long time. Enough time that she knows how humans, individuals and groups alike, work, and how to outmaneouvre them. I got the impression she was very politically savvy. That's just a difference of interpretation, though. Without canonical "facts" about her, it's difficult to say what the probability of her success is.

Modifié par Bejos_, 11 juin 2011 - 03:32 .


#7430
KnightofPhoenix

KnightofPhoenix
  • Members
  • 21 527 messages

Bejos_ wrote...
 I don't know enough about the Witcher world to make the supposition that there's an analogy to be made, in this case.


Well according to Philippa, royal families are genetically superior to the rest.
But Saskia does not have royal blood IIRC.

#7431
KnightofPhoenix

KnightofPhoenix
  • Members
  • 21 527 messages

Bejos_ wrote...
Ehhr-- she's conceivably been alive for a very long time. Enough time that she knows how humans, individuals and groups alike, work, and how to outmaneouvre them. I got the impression she was very politically savvy. That's just a difference of interpretation, though. Without canonical "facts" about her, it's difficult to say what the probability of her success is.


I am more inclined to believe that it's the sorceresses doing all the dirty work for her. Leading a peasant rebellion is quite different from leadign a state. Radically different. 

But like I said, I am not claiming Saskia is a completely useless figurehead or that she's dumb. But I do not share the optimism many seem to have. 

#7432
Bejos_

Bejos_
  • Members
  • 643 messages

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Leading a peasant rebellion is quite different from leadign a state. Radically different.


How so? People might want different things during a rebellion and during peace time, but they're always motivated by the same underlying impulses-- e.g. fear, pride, greed. People are people. If you know why someone is doing what he or she is doing, it's very easy to figure out how to get them to do what you want them to do.

Modifié par Bejos_, 11 juin 2011 - 03:52 .


#7433
erynnar

erynnar
  • Members
  • 3 010 messages

Bejos_ wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Leading a peasant rebellion is quite different from leadign a state. Radically different.


How so? People might want different things during a rebellion and during peace time, but they're always motivated by the same underlying impulses-- e.g. fear, pride, greed. People are people. If you know why someone is doing what he or she is doing, it's very easy to figure out how to get them to do what you want them to do.


You forgot lust or love in that list. Ask any cop. Money, or love/hate (two sides of the same coin). ;)

#7434
KnightofPhoenix

KnightofPhoenix
  • Members
  • 21 527 messages

Bejos_ wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Leading a peasant rebellion is quite different from leadign a state. Radically different.


How so? People might want different things during a rebellion and during peace time, but they're always motivated by the same underlying impulses-- e.g. fear, pride, greed. People are people. If you know why someone is doing what he or she is doing, it's very easy to figure out how to get them to do what you want them to do.


Different, because you have to worry about economy, trade routes, commerce, agriculture, institutions, infrastructure, dealing with nobility and elites, security both internal and external, diplomacy, education, clinging on to power...etc etc etc.
It's actually weird to imply that leading a state is the same as leading a mob. 

Politics is much more than knowing how to persuade and rally the rabble. That's probably the easiest thing to do.
Furthermore, in a state, you have to worry about dealign with a variety of people who all want different things, sometimes opposite things. That alone makes it much more difficult than leading a peasant revolt.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 juin 2011 - 04:00 .


#7435
Bejos_

Bejos_
  • Members
  • 643 messages

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Leading a peasant rebellion is quite different from leadign a state. Radically different.


How so? People might want different things during a rebellion and during peace time, but they're always motivated by the same underlying impulses-- e.g. fear, pride, greed. People are people. If you know why someone is doing what he or she is doing, it's very easy to figure out how to get them to do what you want them to do.


Different, because you have to worry about economy, trade routes, commerce, agriculture, institutions, infrastructure, dealing with nobility and elites, security both internal and external, diplomacy, education, clinging on to power...etc etc etc.
It's actually weird to imply that leading a state is the same as leading a mob. 

Politics is much more than knowing how to persuade and rally the rabble. That's probably the easiest thing to do.
Furthermore, in a state, you have to worry about dealign with a variety of people who all want different things, sometimes opposite things. That alone makes it much more difficult than leading a peasant revolt.


There's no reason to call my opinion weird :) It thought you were only referring to the leader/people dynamic.

Sure, the rest of the stuff is important, too. But it looks like Saskia has decent bureaucrats and strategists surrounding her. Also, people will go without a hell of a lot for even the mere promise of something they really cherish.

#7436
Bejos_

Bejos_
  • Members
  • 643 messages

erynnar wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Leading a peasant rebellion is quite different from leadign a state. Radically different.


How so? People might want different things during a rebellion and during peace time, but they're always motivated by the same underlying impulses-- e.g. fear, pride, greed. People are people. If you know why someone is doing what he or she is doing, it's very easy to figure out how to get them to do what you want them to do.


You forgot lust or love in that list. Ask any cop. Money, or love/hate (two sides of the same coin). ;)


Hahah, yes, but money taps into a deeper need for personal and tribal security; lust into the deeper need for genetic perpetuation; and love-- well, inspiring large groups of people merely by their love for you is a monumental task I wouldn't wish on anyone ;P

#7437
KnightofPhoenix

KnightofPhoenix
  • Members
  • 21 527 messages

Bejos_ wrote...
There's no reason to call my opinion weird :) It thought you were only referring to the leader/people dynamic.

Sure, the rest of the stuff is important, too. But it looks like Saskia has decent bureaucrats and strategists surrounding her. Also, people will go without a hell of a lot for even the mere promise of something they really cherish.


You're right, I apologize.

I am of the opinion, which I think can be empirically proven, that people will only rise up when their bellies are empty, and claim it's in the name of ideals (that they'd forget once their bellies are full).

But again, I am not saying it's impossible to have a functional state in the Pontar Valley. However, everything considered including geography and the geo-political context, It's going to be extremily difficult to maintain it.  

#7438
DragonRageGT

DragonRageGT
  • Members
  • 6 071 messages

YohkoOhno wrote...

RageGT wrote...

You're so right. I wonder why I went to live in London to learn it...


200-300 years ago, it would have been Britian who said that.  But when people in England call the US President "the most powerful man in the world", like I see on several of their shows (Dr. Who, for instance), I suspect the balance of power changed there.

Maybe in 100-200 years we'll all have to learn Chinese.


Hmm.. I think they said that because he can push a button and terminate life on this planet. That's far from being a dominant culture. You know that India and Nigeria (this one was a surprise to me too) produce more movies than Hollywood, right? And that the whole planet plays football with their feet while they insist in playing it with their hands in the US? Dominant military power, perhaps. And it hasn't been that long either. I can think of a few empires that lasted longer. But you're right about Chinese! =)

#7439
Zjarcal

Zjarcal
  • Members
  • 10 841 messages

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And I have studied history.


A more solid way to back up your statement would've been to point out that you're Geralt Pony. :P

#7440
DragonRageGT

DragonRageGT
  • Members
  • 6 071 messages

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And I have studied history.


A more solid way to back up your statement would've been to point out that you're Geralt Pony. :P


What? Isn't that Henselt's?

#7441
KnightofPhoenix

KnightofPhoenix
  • Members
  • 21 527 messages

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And I have studied history.


A more solid way to back up your statement would've been to point out that you're Geralt Pony. :P


That should have become self-evident by now.

Hmmm, a pony arguing about history....spectacular!

#7442
Bejos_

Bejos_
  • Members
  • 643 messages

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I am of the opinion, which I think can be empirically proven, that people will only rise up when their bellies are empty, and claim it's in the name of ideals (that they'd forget once their bellies are full).


This is true. We could carry on discussing the subtleties of the leader/people dynamic, but I'm pretty sure we're looking at the same coin, just different sides of it.

#7443
Dragoonlordz

Dragoonlordz
  • Members
  • 9 920 messages

YohkoOhno wrote...

I agree Bejos. I think because we've been the dominant culture for so long it leads to a level of arrogance on the part of many Americans. We don't learn the languages of other cultures but everybody else learns English.

Europe is probably going to be the savior of the traditional RPG, because Japan has their own take and North America seems to be having them evolve into a hybrid of action and more real time instead of turn based gaming.


Where do you think you learned English from... Oh that's right.. Us English, you know the place that you came from. The hint is in the name 'English'. The world does not speak American even Americans do not speak American, they speak English. Seems arrogance isn't just limited to culture for you Americans. <_<

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 11 juin 2011 - 04:29 .


#7444
addiction21

addiction21
  • Members
  • 6 066 messages

Dragoonlordz wrote...

YohkoOhno wrote...

I agree Bejos. I think because we've been the dominant culture for so long it leads to a level of arrogance on the part of many Americans. We don't learn the languages of other cultures but everybody else learns English.

Europe is probably going to be the savior of the traditional RPG, because Japan has their own take and North America seems to be having them evolve into a hybrid of action and more real time instead of turn based gaming.


Where do you think you learned English from... Oh that's right.. Us English, you know the place that you came from. The hint is in the name 'English'. The world does not speak American even Americans do not speak American, they speak English. Seems arrogance isn't just limited to culture for you Americans. <_<


It does not look like arrogance is limited to just Americans either... Posted Image

#7445
orbit991

orbit991
  • Members
  • 511 messages

Dragoonlordz wrote...

YohkoOhno wrote...

I agree Bejos. I think because we've been the dominant culture for so long it leads to a level of arrogance on the part of many Americans. We don't learn the languages of other cultures but everybody else learns English.

Europe is probably going to be the savior of the traditional RPG, because Japan has their own take and North America seems to be having them evolve into a hybrid of action and more real time instead of turn based gaming.


Where do you think you learned English from... Oh that's right.. Us English, you know the place that you came from. The hint is in the name 'English'. The world does not speak American even Americans do not speak American, they speak English. Seems arrogance isn't just limited to culture for you Americans. <_<


We came from England? Well thats news to most Americans, as most here are not of that origin. Not sure about this arogance bit BS, but something Euros cant get their heads around  is that we live in a country where many states are bigger then European countries, states that have their own laws, traditions and culture, further divided by enclaves of other smaller cultures. Those are our neighbors and of immediate concern rather then say Italy. In fact Europeans are just as ignorant regarding the US as they claim we are of them, especially judging by your arrogant self indulgent post.

#7446
Anathemic

Anathemic
  • Members
  • 2 361 messages

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I question the Pontar Kingdoms' ability to survive personally. I am not convinced that "those who control the Pontar control the North" thing necessarily, seeing how Aedirn controlled it for a long while and it's still the weakest of the four Northern kingdoms. Plus it's landlocked and anyone controlling Flotsam can block all maritime trade (hence the stroke of genius from Dethmold to bring Loredo under their banner).

Furthermore, if Act 2 is any indication, at best they were able to muster an army of a thousand men to protect their capital. Not what I would call impressive. Not when Nilfgaard can gather hundred of thousands.

And, I personally am skeptical of how this racial coexistence is supposed to work. For me, it all sounds like rhetoric, same as Saskia trying to play egalitarian between peasants and nobles. We hear Dwarves expressing concern over human encroachment. The crimes of the Scoia'tael are not gong to be forgotten or forgiven easily...etc. One the common enemy is gone, I question how long peace would last. I am willing to bet that **** would hit the fan, unless Saskia proves to be a formidable state woman and institution builder, which I personally doubt she will be.

Don't get me wrong, while I do find Saskia to be a bit foolish, I also find her interesting and to a certain extent, impressive. And she's definitely the only one who right now has a policy towards nonhumans that I'd respect, namely attracting them to join humans in a common cause, despite her apparent naivety and simplicity regarding the policy.

But I personally prefer strengthening Redenia and Kaedwen. And for me, giving Anais to Natalis is unwise.


I think the phrase "He who controls the Pontar Valley controls the North" just means whoever dominates it has the upperhand in both economy and as a buffer zone against any of the kingdoms, though I could be wrong.

Ar for Saskia and Pontar holding it's own against Nilfgaard, well that wouldn't happen, considering to reach Pontar you have to go through Lyria, Aedirn, or Temria (if I'm reading the map correctly), so before an assault on Pontar from Nilfgaard could begin, they would already be in conflict with the joint effort of the rest of the Northern Kingdoms.

And don't forget the Pontar has not only the assets of humans, but of dwarves and the Scoia'tael who are undisputably the best archers in the known world.

#7447
DragonRageGT

DragonRageGT
  • Members
  • 6 071 messages
LOL
Only now I really paid attention to this bonus video. Had watched it on April 1st but now I can see that it was made in Flotsam! Dandelion killing the Kayran!!!!!  ROFLMAO


Posted Image


THE BARD Saviors Of Queens - Autoplay Trailer (April fools) Posted Image

#7448
Anathemic

Anathemic
  • Members
  • 2 361 messages
So I just finished the Roche path [WARNING: SPOILERS OF BOTH PATHS INCOMING]
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
I let Roche kill Henselt
Killed Dethmold
Rescued Anais
Handed Anais to Radovid
Killed Sile
Killed Saskia
And finally killed Letho

So comparing both Ioverth and Roche paths, damn they are very different, I love this game. I agree that Roche's path (somebody in this thread stated before) that you are being tugged mercilessly by the hand of fate. Whereas in Ioverth's path you have more control in what to do (IE saving more).

I had to think in the end about killing Saskia or not. A shame really you can't rescue Saskia on Roche's path that you could in Iorveth's, but I guess that's the tradeoff. In Ioverth you can rescue Saskia and create a new kingdom in the Pontar Valley, and in Roche's path you can salvage the throne of Temeria by rescuing Anais.

But damn, I love both Roche and Ioverth now (man love), however in the end I will choose Ioverth for the sake off a more worthwhile bond in the end as I see it.

What interests me though is Boussy's death. Do we ever learn how he died, because I didn't. If we did can someone care to explain to me and how to find it in-game?

Anyways, there is a guarantee I will be replaying this game just for the sole sake of having multiple playthroughs to port into a future TW3.

So let's see here. Nilfgaard is still a douche, sorceresses (with the exception of Triss and Yennefer) are a bunch of retards. Roche and Ioverth are both baddasses. Henselt and Deathmold are both pricks that need to die. And Radovid seems to be the only king left that is trustworthy.

Modifié par Anathemic, 11 juin 2011 - 07:50 .


#7449
CalJones

CalJones
  • Members
  • 3 205 messages
I didn't find any reference to Boussy's death either. Seems a little sad, really.

I let Roche kill Henselt too, on his path. Perhaps it's a mistake, strategically, but after what he did, I couldn't let him live. My other decisions were the same, except that I saved Sile and didn't kill Letho. I think I may go back and replay that bit because watching her explode is much more fun. And after the insults, well, she had it coming.

Not killing Letho was pure laziness on my part. I couldn't be bothered with the fight (on either run, actually).

#7450
Costin_Razvan

Costin_Razvan
  • Members
  • 7 010 messages

I'd say Ioverth's path in creating a whole new multi-racial kingdom in the north is just as equal as saving the Temerian throne with Roche's path saving Anais, if not better (considering a possible Nilfgaardian invasion will happen really soon and Anais is not that capable in both mind and age to govern through that).


Anais is irrelevant. Giving her to Radovid however is as sure as hell not.

I want to see how this so called kingdom of yours will work. You think you just snap your fingers, make some laws and bam you have a multi-racial kingdom. then well frankly you know zero of politics or history.

You bring up and interesting point that the other kingdoms won't support Saskia's kingdom (let's call it the Pontar for simplicity in this conversation) in war. Well that's not the case. Last I recall, Pontar is not at the border of Nilfgaard, that's Lyria and Temeria (if I'm reading the map coorectly). So if Nilfgaard were to invade then the Northern Kingdoms would have to band together, just like they did at Sodden and Brenna.


Lyria and Aedirn are going to fall easily, just like they did last time around, this time even quicker since Lyria was weakened by the old war and Aedirn has no monarch.

The Imperials once reached the Pontar valley, where they only stopped because of a deal with Henselt, they can do so again, and even go beyond this time. Henselt might just launch his second invasion anyway, and if he brings a strong army, not just 2.000 if even less troops, then you can bet Saskia won't stand a chance....

The pro to the newly-formed Pontar is that the North now have the best archers in the known world, the Scoia'tael, not to mention any assets the dwarves can make. With Pontar the terrorist acts of Scoia'tael would be gone, sure there might be possible rogue bands, but not to the degree of full on guerilla war of the past.


England had the best archers in the Medieval world, and they still lost quite a few wars. The real reason it was never conquered it was because of it's Island nation status with no strong foes on the Island...as for the dwarves? What can do they do that is special?

You think 1.000 men is an army? Laughable, that's not an army and furthermore it's not organized. You think they would stand any chance in a pitched battle and not a castle assault?

That battle wasn't won because of Saskia's leadership skill, it was won because Roche had weakened the Kaedweni army with his plot and because Geralt, the badass, was there....why do you think Vergen falls when you fight on Henselt's side?

And to futher strengthen this foresight, Saskia must be pretty stupid if she doesn't aid the rest of the North against a Nilfgaard invasion. And judging from what we learend from Saskia, she's anything but that.


She is pretty stupid if she thinks racial tension can just be melted away just like that.

How exactly is she going to create an army? From what money ....having the richest province in the north doesn't mean anything if you don't have trade, and who is going to trade with her? Kaedwen? Redania ( Radovid would likely have invaded to bring Saskia down from her self proclaimed throne if not for him wanting to split Temeria in two with Henselt )? Aedirn...

She has no economy, no skill for running one, nor does she have the skill for the logistics related to running you army. What you are trying to say is that somehow Saskia's nation would survive because the north would need her help, what I am saying is that ( based on historical evidence ) every single medieval monarch would sooner have cut off his own hand before accepting a peasant on a throne.