13812 réponses à ce sujet

[YohkoOhno]

And one thing to keep in mind is that I do have all except A Polish Book of Monsters. When I argue, I try to think of what somebody would feel coming in "cold", I think a lot of people are playing TW2 without having any of this background, and I felt I would be very confused about somebody like Yennefer unless I actually read these.

The character has recovered his memory, but the player hasn't.  I wonder how many players would be shocked at thinking Triss is Geralts true love after reading "The Last Wish"

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 11 juin 2011 - 05:21 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Anathemic wrote...

Just a little side note. Time of Contempt was pushed back to 2012/2013.

Thanks didn't know that myself that was pushed back.

@ Yohko ~Let those who are coming in from the cold speak for themselves don't 'guess' what they want or need especially since your not in that category.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 11 juin 2011 - 05:24 .

[Anathemic]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Anathemic wrote...
Sure after the war Saskia's Pontar could do a complete 180 and implode on itself or get invaded from 3 different fronts. Not the point. My stance is right now selecting the best chances of surviving a Nilfgaard invasion, and I see that happening over a newly formed kingdom in the Pontar rather than a divided and/or conquered Temeria.

I think you vastly overestimate the Pontar's strength. They only managed to have a thousand men to defend their capital and they had defensive advantages (and many of them were just irregulars). On an open field, they'd be virtually useless. And guerilla warfare can only get you so far. I don't think the empire that can bring in hundreds of thousands is going to be intimidated by a few guerilla groups.

I'd much rather have a strong Kaedwen and a stabilized Temeria under Redenian influence and protection.

I admit my main focus is the Scoia'tael forces. I'm pretty sure we can all agree that not every single Scoia'tael band was present at Vergen.

Guerilla warfare can only get you so far yes, but this is where the Northern forces come into play, I don't see the Scoia'tael alone winning a war against an empire. Plus guerilla warfare specilaize in attacking key resources like supply routes or weakened spots in an enemy force.

As for having a Redanian-controlled Temeria, it all comes down to Radovid's competence. He is young and we don't know much about him. Can he lead his own country into war successfully, let alone 2?

[YohkoOhno]

@ Yohko ~Let those who are coming in from the cold speak for themselves don't 'guess' what they want or need especially since your not in that category.

Ah, but I was cold in "TW1".

Debating can be done without first hand knowledge of things. Part of my job is usability for software and I try to make sure I think about the novice when designing web interfaces for people.

I feel like you are telling me to "shut up" because you seem to be afraid people will "listen to me" and make changes, or you just don't want to hear contrary opinions. But at the end of the day, each person gets one vote, and it's up to the game developers to take all these opinions into account.  If I'm truly in the minority, then time will tell and you have nothing to worry about.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 11 juin 2011 - 05:31 .

[YohkoOhno]

Guerilla warfare can only get you so far yes, but this is where the Northern forces come into play, I don't see the Scoia'tael alone winning a war against an empire. Plus guerilla warfare specilaize in attacking key resources like supply routes or weakened spots in an enemy force.

One thing to consider too--and I don't know this--is the Valley advantageous geographically? That can make a difference. Look how hard (from a historical perspective) military forces have had where the land has advantages--think Afghanistan's historical wars with two superpowers.

[Dragoonlordz]

YohkoOhno wrote...

@ Yohko ~Let those who are coming in from the cold speak for themselves don't 'guess' what they want or need especially since your not in that category.

Ah, but I was cold in "TW1".

Debating can be done without first hand knowledge of things. Part of my job is usability for software and I try to make sure I think about the novice when designing web interfaces for people.

I feel like you are telling me to "shut up" because you seem to be afraid people will "listen to me" and make changes, or you just don't want to hear contrary opinions. But at the end of the day, each person gets one vote, and it's up to the game developers to take all these opinions into account.

No I'm telling you that your speaking for people who never asked you too and might not feel the same way you do in that regard you should stop assuming what they need or want. Speak for yourself and only yourself. "Ah but I was in TW1" has no relevance to TW2. By all means speak about how you came in from the cold in TW1 but do not speak about coming in from the cold in TW2 when you never did. Point is your speaking for not just one vote your making the claim your speaking for everyone else who comes in from the cold about what they need or want or more accurately what you 'think" they want or need.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 11 juin 2011 - 05:33 .

[Nerevar-as]

YohkoOhno wrote...

And one thing to keep in mind is that I do have all except A Polish Book of Monsters. When I argue, I try to think of what somebody would feel coming in "cold", I think a lot of people are playing TW2 without having any of this background, and I felt I would be very confused about somebody like Yennefer unless I actually read these.

The character has recovered his memory, but the player hasn't.  I wonder how many players would be shocked at thinking Triss is Geralts true love after reading "The Last Wish"

All the saga is translated to Spanish, which is probably more spread than east european languages in UK or USA.

About your second point, did you write Triss intentionally? She doesn´t appear in the books until Blood of Elves (besides the mention at the battle monument) and it´s pretty clear from the beginning her feelings for Geralt are one way only.

[slimgrin]

YohkoOhno wrote...

And one thing to keep in mind is that I do have all except A Polish Book of Monsters. When I argue, I try to think of what somebody would feel coming in "cold", I think a lot of people are playing TW2 without having any of this background, and I felt I would be very confused about somebody like Yennefer unless I actually read these.

The character has recovered his memory, but the player hasn't.  I wonder how many players would be shocked at thinking Triss is Geralts true love after reading "The Last Wish"

Obviously, it would involve a certain amount of compromise on their part to make the sequel a proper introductory experience for newcomers. But I'm guessing that's not in line with their philosphy as game makers. Just look at all the elements that could be made more accessible:

-Dialog. How many games go from shakespearean type dialog to "f*ck you c*nt" No doubt many people would like it toned down.

-Plot. It's hard to follow sometimes, especially if you don't read the journal. I'm sure many would like a story that's easier to follow.

-Mature content. Blowjobs, decapitation, sexual servitude, lesbianism, assasination, genital mutilation, drug use, racism. And that's not even a complete list. I'm sure many wish TW2 were more family friendly.

-Difficulty. It's a hard game that doesn't hold your hand. Lots want that changed. Most critics, in fact.


In the end, they made a game that isn't very accessible on a number of levels. And I'm personally happy they did.

Modifié par slimgrin, 11 juin 2011 - 05:41 .

[Anathemic]

YohkoOhno wrote...

Guerilla warfare can only get you so far yes, but this is where the Northern forces come into play, I don't see the Scoia'tael alone winning a war against an empire. Plus guerilla warfare specilaize in attacking key resources like supply routes or weakened spots in an enemy force.

One thing to consider too--and I don't know this--is the Valley advantageous geographically? That can make a difference. Look how hard (from a historical perspective) military forces have had where the land has advantages--think Afghanistan's historical wars with two superpowers.

Pretty sure it is, Ioverth's forces have been there a while and taken out settlements with relative ease (he held back on Flotsam) and at the same time remained hidden .

[Bejos_]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

YohkoOhno wrote...

@
Yohko ~Let those who are coming in from the cold speak for themselves don't 'guess' what they want or need especially since your not in that category.

Ah, but I was cold in "TW1".

Debating can be done without first hand knowledge of things. Part of my job is usability for software and I try to make sure I think about the novice when designing web interfaces for people.

I feel like you are telling me to "shut up" because you seem to be afraid people will "listen to me" and make changes, or you just don't want to hear contrary opinions. But at the end of the day, each person gets one vote, and it's up to the game developers to take all these opinions into account.

No I'm telling you that your speaking for people who never asked you too and might not feel the same way you do in that regard you should stop assuming what they need or want. Speak for yourself and only yourself.
"Ah but I was in TW1" has no relevance to TW2. By all means speak about how you came in from the cold in TW1 but do not speak about coming in from the cold in TW2 when you never did. Point is your speaking for not just one vote your making the claim your speaking for everyone else who comes in from the cold about what they need or want or more accurately what you 'think" they want or need.

I'm "coming in cold" and what Yohko says is right. I haven't played TW1, and couldn't bother with the books, so TW2 really should make more effort to familiarise people with its world.

This is different than something like the Batman world or the Spiderman world, which are essentially like ours are, politically and otherwise, except for a few stylistic differences (noir) or historical differences (speedy mutations).

I agree with Yohko, the world does need to be introduced in more breadth and depth than what it currently is. I've also stated that, OTOH, it's nice to not have everything laid befor you, so that the setting stays "fresh" for longer.

Go ahead and speak for me, Yohko.

Modifié par Bejos_, 11 juin 2011 - 05:38 .

[YohkoOhno]

I have every right to argue about the game in the abstract, how the game works mechanically, whether or not it fits the standards other games try to achieve, and to talk about design choices I think are good, bad, flawed, not flawed, etc.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Anathemic wrote...
I admit my main focus is the Scoia'tael forces. I'm pretty sure we can all agree that not every single Scoia'tael band was present at Vergen.

Guerilla warfare can only get you so far yes, but this is where the Northern forces come into play, I don't see the Scoia'tael alone winning a war against an empire. Plus guerilla warfare specilaize in attacking key resources like supply routes or weakened spots in an enemy force.

If their previous acts are any indication, the Scoia'tael at best were an annoyance to the northern kingdoms. Their guerilla tactics did not pose a major threat. The only semblance of that was Yaevinn's revolt, but we know that Jacques was secretly behind it.

Not saying they won't be of any help. I'm sure they would prove useful, if in coordination with the North. But I personally would rather take a stronger Kaedwen, Redenia and a stablized Temeria. The Northern forces would be weakened if Temeria is weakened, Kaedwen lost and Redenia didn't spread its sphere of influence.

Furthermore, the Scoia'Tael already hate Nilfgaard. While they may not be as united as with Iorveth, it's not impossible for them to fight with the North if persuaded to.

As for having a Redanian-controlled Temeria, it all comes down to Radovid's competence. He is young and we don't know much about him. Can he lead his own country into war successfully, let alone 2?

Yes, I think he can. So far, he's shown himself very competent and he did assist Foltest in bringing down the Order revolt (and ingeniously took them under his wing).

Not saying it's guaranteed that he is a master strategist, but I'd prefer taking my chances with him. Furthermore, we know that he's having a military build up.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 juin 2011 - 05:39 .

[Dragoonlordz]

slimgrin wrote...

In the end, they made a game that isn't very accessible on a number of levels. And I'm personally happy they did.

Ditto.

[slimgrin]

Bejos_ wrote...

I'm "coming in cold" and what Yohko says is right. I haven't played TW1, and couldn't bother with the books, so TW2 really should make more effort to familiarise people with its world.

I just can't agree with this. It's almost like asking a foreign filmmaker to make his movie more 'American'.

[KnightofPhoenix]

YohkoOhno wrote...

Guerilla warfare can only get you so far yes, but this is where the Northern forces come into play, I don't see the Scoia'tael alone winning a war against an empire. Plus guerilla warfare specilaize in attacking key resources like supply routes or weakened spots in an enemy force.

One thing to consider too--and I don't know this--is the Valley advantageous geographically? That can make a difference. Look how hard (from a historical perspective) military forces have had where the land has advantages--think Afghanistan's historical wars with two superpowers.

If Henselt can take Vergen with 5000 men (if Geralt doesn't interfere), I dont' see why Nilfgaard wouldnt' be able to do the same.

Vergen is a very defensible city, but the Pontar valley itself seems to be very vulnerable. All it takes is to control Flotsam, and you would block it off from all maritime trade.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 juin 2011 - 05:40 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Bejos_ wrote...

I'm "coming in cold" and what Yohko says is right. I haven't played TW1, and couldn't bother with the books, so TW2 really should make more effort to familiarise people with its world.

This is different than something like the Batman world or the Spiderman world, which are essentially like ours are, politically and otherwise, except for a few stylistic differences (noir) or historical differences (speedy mutations).

I agree with Yohko, the world does need to be introduced in more breadth and depth than what it currently is. I've also stated that, OTOH, it's nice to not have everything laid befor you, so that the setting stays "fresh" for longer.

Go ahead and speak for me, Yohko.

Then explain exactly what you did not understand in TW2 that specifically inhibits your understand of the world itself or more accurately stops you understanding the story. If your too lazy to search for any additional information that is not required to understand the story and progression in TW2 then thats your flaw not the games.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 11 juin 2011 - 05:39 .

[Dragoonlordz]

YohkoOhno wrote...

I have every right to argue about the game in the abstract, how the game works mechanically, whether or not it fits the standards other games try to achieve, and to talk about design choices I think are good, bad, flawed, not flawed, etc.

What you don't have is the right to claim you speak for what others want or need.

[Bejos_]

slimgrin wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

I'm "coming in cold" and what Yohko says is right. I haven't played TW1, and couldn't bother with the books, so TW2 really should make more effort to familiarise people with its world.

I just can't agree with this. It's almost like asking a foreign filmmaker to make his movie more 'American'.

It's nothing like that. It's like asking a director, who bases his movie on a book, to provide more of what's already in the book, because some people who watch the movie don't want to have to read the bad translation (I'm guessing; otherwise the writing isn't very good ...) of the books, but still want to experience what's so enchanting about them.

[Nerevar-as]

[quote]slimgrin wrote...

[/quote]

Obviously, it would involve a certain amount of compromise on their part to make the sequel a proper introductory experience for new comers. But I'm guessing that's not in line with their philosphy as game makers. Just look at all the elements that could be made more mains accessible:

-Dialog. How many games go from shakespearean type dialog to "f*ck you c*nt" No doubt many people would like it toned down.[/quote]

It´s funny how in games (and other media) even peasants speak perfect English, and never swear.

[quote]
-Plot. It's hard to follow sometimes, especially if you don't read the journal. I'm sure many would like a story that's easier to follow.[/quote]

Some also like it like that. At least they made the best journal I´ve come acroos in a game, making it Jaskier´s recolection of the events.

[YohkoOhno]

I just can't agree with this. It's almost like asking a foreign filmmaker to make his movie more 'American'.

But in part they are trying to market this to the RPG player and not just to Witcher fans. I'm sure part of the reason it is doing better in Europe is because of the familiarity of the subject there as opposed to here. But CDPJ wants a large audience as well--which is why they want to put it on XBOX.

You can make the game more accessible and introduce the characters easily without sacrificing things like the dynamic plot, difficulty levels, etc. With just a little more care the critics might give this a higher score and they might sell more units. Nothing I'm suggesting would or should compromise the story or the game as some people might fear.

And part of the reason why we should make these criticisms is for them to improve their work.  As a programmer I've learned you should never be the primary (or only) tester of your own work, because you may not see something a second pair of eyes does.  I'm not saying they need to do focus groups or anything, but you can blind yourself to your own flaws if you're not careful.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 11 juin 2011 - 05:45 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Bejos_ wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

I'm "coming in cold" and what Yohko says is right. I haven't played TW1, and couldn't bother with the books, so TW2 really should make more effort to familiarise people with its world.

I just can't agree with this. It's almost like asking a foreign filmmaker to make his movie more 'American'.

It's nothing like that. It's like asking a director, who bases his movie on a book, to provide more of what's already in the book, because some people who watch the movie don't want to have to read the bad translation (I'm guessing; otherwise the writing isn't very good ...) of the books, but still want to experience what's so enchanting about them.

In otherwords you want it all for free in everything produced. You want everything from the books in each game because your too lazy to read the books regardless of the fact they put by far enough information in the game to understand everything within that game thats required to progress the story and grasp what is going on and why. What's next do you want them to re-write the entire book series into a item in the game itself so you can read it there for free instead of getting off your arse and checking the books themselves. Would you also like TW1 to come free with TW2 and TW3 to incorporate TW1 and TW2 within the same box for free because you want to know everything but too lazy or cheap to invest any time or money in finding out yourself?

Yohko wants all that lore and information for every title by the looks of it and thats why I am even arguing with her narrow minded blaming the game for not covering everything that as 'subjective personal preference' she wants in every game. It has already been shown that the things she has mentioned has actually already been in the game and she merely missed it. She's playing devils advocate and speaking for others making claims of what they would want instead of just speaking for herself and only herself.

She's not just saying I want more lore in the game, she's claiming others want or need it on their behalf in order to make it sound like more people want that than in reality does.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 11 juin 2011 - 05:53 .

[slimgrin]

Bejos_ wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

I'm "coming in cold" and what Yohko says is right. I haven't played TW1, and couldn't bother with the books, so TW2 really should make more effort to familiarise people with its world.

I just can't agree with this. It's almost like asking a foreign filmmaker to make his movie more 'American'.

It's nothing like that. It's like asking a director, who bases his movie on a book, to provide more of what's already in the book, because some people who watch the movie don't want to have to read the bad translation (I'm guessing; otherwise the writing isn't very good ...) of the books, but still want to experience what's so enchanting about them.

Then you're denying me the journey of finding out on my own what The witcher is all about. I don't need everything encapsulated in the game.

@Nerevar-as. You are missing my point. I don't want them to make things more accessible.

Modifié par slimgrin, 11 juin 2011 - 05:48 .

[Nerevar-as]

Bejos_ wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

I'm "coming in cold" and what Yohko says is right. I haven't played TW1, and couldn't bother with the books, so TW2 really should make more effort to familiarise people with its world.

I just can't agree with this. It's almost like asking a foreign filmmaker to make his movie more 'American'.

It's nothing like that. It's like asking a director, who bases his movie on a book, to provide more of what's already in the book, because some people who watch the movie don't want to have to read the bad translation (I'm guessing; otherwise the writing isn't very good ...) of the books, but still want to experience what's so enchanting about them.

At least the Spanish translation has very good writing. You can see the translator took pains to adapt the way different peple speak. On the down side, he takes about 2+ years to translate one book. Still waiting for 2nd volume of the Husite Wars trilogy.

[hangmans tree]

Hey Slim. I think a better translation would be "I don't stir. I'm struggling against the material" or something very similar
And BTW, I agree

[Bejos_]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

I'm "coming in cold" and what Yohko says is right. I haven't played TW1, and couldn't bother with the books, so TW2 really should make more effort to familiarise people with its world.

Then explain exactly what you did not understand in TW2 that specifically inhibits your understand of the world itself or more accurately stops you understanding the story. If your too lazy to search for any additional information that is not required to understand the story and progression in TW2 then thats your flaw not the games.

Dragoonlordz, I'm not going to get into the specifics with you because, as previously evidenced, you'll boil my points down to "You didn't pay attention! It's all there!" or "You're too lazy to read the internetz!" or "You should spend more money and buy the books! They explain it all!" (I do admire your tactics, though. Keep repeating the same thing until the other person capitulates. Does it really feel like you've "won" just because the other person gives up a tiresome conversation?)

The point is, just like movies based on books, the game has to be able to stand on its own. Uhm ... imagine if the Spiderman movies didn't explain anything about MJ's and Peter's relationship, and just dropped us in the middle of it. Could we understand what was happening? Sure. Would we comprehend what was so important about the relationship, or how it came to be, or why it's falling apart or managing to hold itself together? No, not really.

Like I said, I enjoy that the world is described so sparsely, because this way it lasts longer. But I also know a lot of other people are just going to give up on it because it's too abstruse.