13812 réponses à ce sujet

[billy the squid]

Considering that, CDproject announced that they had sold 400k in the first week alone, so yes Vg chartz appears to be way off the mark in that respect. It is a sizable number for a developer which had to learn as it went whilst creating the predecessor.

Consider, The Pc version is fairly cheap, I got it for £25, which is a steal when one looks at the content which is included. Combined with the removal of DRM, GOG is likely to have seen a lot of custom in digital downloads when it was announced that this copy would have no DRM, so they did not have to pay distribution fees on this etc.

Although VGchartz is inaccurate, it does show that TW2 seemed to have a lot more pull in Europe than the US, which I thought was interesting, so we will see how this pans out, but hopefully they won't try to simplify things in future instalments.

Modifié par billy the squid, 17 juillet 2011 - 12:19 .

[slimgrin]

The wait for the patch is killing me.

[billy the squid]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I'm impressed.

I made a few comments on my views on the Scoia'Tel. ( I believe them murderers and terrorists ) and some guy decided that he would dislike most of my LP videos and then make a user on Youtube specifically just to call me a racist in my videos.

LOLZ

It is unfortunate that some people are complete morons. But, I think that the the developers achieved what they set out to do with Iorveth, creating a character, dependant on point of view who is considered a murderer or an uncomprimising warrior for his race, which inevitably creates differing views in individuals.

Personally, I see him as a desperate somewhat tragic figure, he fights even when he knows he is likely to loose. After being betrayed by Nilfgaard in the second conflict with the North, I can see why his mistrust and hate of the dh'oine is such, but I think it blinds him to the realities of the conflict and the acts which he perpetuates. His comments on the other non humans living in Flotsam I find rather telling, I think he considers them to be collateral damage in the conflict, a very callous, if uncompomising attitude.

I try not to look at him from a modern perspective, rather from a more medieval European line, where killing civilians, burning towns and executing prisoners was more common place, so doesn't carry the modern stigmatism of terrorist or murderer. Rather, such actions as unwholesome as they were a part of medieval European conflicts. England's invasion of France in the 100 years had a lot of this going on, the battle of Agincourt etc. saw some brutal tactics used by the English, which fits well with the dark, realistic world of TW2

Modifié par billy the squid, 17 juillet 2011 - 01:14 .

[blothulfur]

I can see your point in likening the chevauchee (small quick incursions that weakened enemy infrastructure) that us english indulged in in the hundred years war to Iorveths actions what with france being at that point a continental superpower and england not having the men or resources to face her in open battle except when the place and time suited our small professional armies such as at Crecy and Poitiers but that conflict I would more equate to what Aedirn should be doing to halt Henselts land grab.

Iorveth is quite clearly racist and somewhat nihilistic in my view, the fact that he advocates a struggle to the death when his people are fading away smacks of a callous disregard for their future because even if an independant state is formed in the pontar valley how is it going to maintain independance in the face of a land hungry expanding human race and the warlike battle kings who as you state seem to resemble the power hungry nobility of the medieval period especially when it harbours known terrorists such as Iorveth and straddles some of the richest lands in the north.

If he wanted to help his people why is he not leading them to one of the two elven enclaves in the world and lending his strength to forge a strong independant nation in lands that are not contested by rival thrones instead of throwing his weight behind a human/dragon catspaw of the sorceresses who's engaged in a war she cannot win in the long term. If I were a freedom fighter in his position I would be leading every elf I could find to Dol Blathanna or the blue mountains so that a strong and legitimate nation could arise to face the human nations on their own level, not burning down peasants hovels and shooting farmers in the back as it achieves nothing but the alienation of a populous and warlike race.

It does seem that witcher world elves delight in their victim mentality when compared to the adaptable and industrious dwarves, maybe they have experience of a race being hunted to extinction such as Roche alludes to with the disappearence of the Vran.

[Costin_Razvan]

If I were a freedom fighter in his position I would be leading every elf I could find to Dol Blathanna or the blue mountains so that a strong and legitimate nation could arise to face the human nations on their own level, not burning down peasants hovels and shooting farmers in the back as it achieves nothing but the alienation of a populous and warlike race.

He would be hanged by the Elven Queen if he entered Dol Blathanna, or so it is alluded to in the game. Big surprise that the elven queen decided to distance herself from extremists like him.

Racial Tensions cannot be combated by the sword, it will only worsen them in fact. This is why Martin Luther King Jr. was a bloody genius.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 17 juillet 2011 - 02:30 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Blue Mountains are not really an option:
"Today only two enclaves of the race remain: the Blue Mountains, where elves suffer privation and are dying out"

A mountain is no suitable place for a nation to be established. As for the Valley of Flowers, it's a puppet of Nilfgaard, and Findabair was the one who betrayed the Scoia'Tael, which Iorveth is probably paranoid about at this point. He might have been able to orchestrate a coup d'Etat, but I doubt the 2000 elves there are going to support him, and I doubt that Nilfgaard would not have retaliated.

Also, and there is some validity to this point, maybe Iorveth realized that Elves could no longer live isolated. They will always be weak, due to lack of numbers and apparently inability to cultivate land, so them having their own nation is no longer an option. The only option is to integrate with humans and dwarves in a multi-cultural society, where no one is persecuted. Of course his past as a terrorist and his views of racial war would make that difficult if not paradoxical, but I do think Iorveth changes over time, because he sees hope. He has very high ambitions, virtually impractical even, but it's virtually the only option he and the elves have.

Which is why, like Billy, I see Iorveth as a tragic figure. And I think he is both a mass murderer and terrorist, and an uncompromising warrior to his race. Unlike Yaevinn, Iorveth fights his racial war because he sees no hope (whether true or not is debatable). He would not care about collateral damage because in his eyes, it's a war between races, and he's not completely wrong (though like most tragic figures, it might also be the result of self-fulfilling prophecy, at least partially).

That said, he evolves from that, because of Saskia. As overly ambition and in large part naive his plans are, I think they change the man from a desperate terrorist to a fighter for a cause that rallies under it elves, humans and dwarves. A cause that seeks equality and justice for all regardless of race. That's one reason why Iorveth intrigues me. Many stories are about a person's devolution into a terrorist (see Anders). But the reverse, the evolution of a desperate racist terrorist into a fighter for a just cause, is something I've never encountered before personally. Out of all TW2 characters, I think Iorveth had the most development. Did he grow past his hatred of humans? No. Like Cedric says, Iorveth is too old to grow past it imo, it's like he is wired to hate them after all they've been through. But was he able to put aside his hatred for now and fight with humans for a common cause? Yes, and I think that's development of his character.

And ultimately, what does Iorveth want? As his dream showed, he just wants to sit at a full table, smoke a pipe and smile (while maybe waiting for a date). I think he is tired of fighting and wants to drop it all and live a normal life free of persecution. And I think he believes supporting Saskia is the only way to create such a society where he can live normally. Had it been Yaevinn's dream, we probably would have seen him ruling over a restored Elven Empire that ends up massacring humans (speculation on my part). That's the difference, imo, between the two.

And that's in large part why I like Iorveth more as a character. And why I really really like him in general. He is a terrorist mass murderer, but he has depth.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 juillet 2011 - 02:50 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Racial Tensions cannot be combated by the sword, it will only worsen them in fact. This is why Martin Luther King Jr. was a bloody genius.

He lived in an entirely different context however. Had Martin Luther King been in the Medieval era, he would have been slaughtered faster than he can pronounce his full name.

If Vivaldi's experience is any indication, humans are taking over non-human businesses also. In addition, we see this in Flotsam when a human approaches the Dwarven smith and essentially pressures him to join the guild. I also see this as humans taking over non-human business.

There comes a time, when no method is sufficient to change the inevitable. I think that's why Iorveth is desperate and sees no options other than just fighting a war he and the elves are doomed to lose. Before he met Saskia. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

And a pic to show my appreciation of Iorveth!



And he is badass.
Him beating Roche in that little skirmish if Geralt gives him his sword, despite being taken by surprise, shows that Iorveth is a tactical genius. His presence is literally the only thing that changes the outcome of the skirmish.

I mean you have to be pretty badass if Letho himself says you're a cunning fox and fears that you'll eventually catch on to him.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 juillet 2011 - 02:58 .

[Costin_Razvan]

There comes a time, when no method is sufficient to change the inevitable. I think that's why Iorveth is desperate and sees no options other than just fighting a war he and the elves are doomed to lose. Before he met Saskia.

Yet the Elven nation will survive in Dol Blathanna. That is the future for the elves despite what Iorveth might say, but while those like him live it will never be so.

[blothulfur]

I agree the elves cannot afford any more battles of honour or great struggles what i'm saying is they need to consolidate and focus on rebuilding themselves apart from humanity in one of their two homelands so that they can forge a place in the world independant of humanity but with the quiet assurance that they have the strength to defend themselves as strong nations.

I can't really speak for Mr King as I know little of the bloke and his struggle seems a little too contemporary for this conflict i'd liken it more to the jewish ghettoes of the medieval period which were scapegoated by monarchs seeking to redirect public anger or forfeit on large loans held by jewish bankers.

The outsider in any society will always be targeted just as any pack animal (which i'd say we still are despite our advancements) will hate and fear the lone wolf especially when the rule of law is in its infancy and ultimate authority derives from the divine right of kings which is a posh way of saying might makes right.

And if this might makes right philosophy holds water a citizen of a strong nation will be more respected than a ghetto dweller who is weak and lives subject to the will of a foreign king, basically my arguments is approach humanity on a more level playing field because as landless outsiders in a medieval world the elves are going to suffer every time someone needs a new enemy to blame atrocities on and if terrorists like Iorveth continue with their "freedom fighting" kings and potentates will have all the ammunition they need to combat the threat in any way they see fit.

I can see integration eventually succeeding if the rule of law is upheld and elves stop with playing the victim and get busy with making themselves useful like the dwarves but as I said outsiders always present such a juicy target to fear mongerers and those who appeal to the basest instincts and the lowest common denominator.

Agreed that Iorveth is one of the more fascinating characters in a very strong cast list though.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

There comes a time, when no method is sufficient to change the inevitable. I think that's why Iorveth is desperate and sees no options other than just fighting a war he and the elves are doomed to lose. Before he met Saskia.

Yet the Elven nation will survive in Dol Blathanna. That is the future for the elves despite what Iorveth might say, but while those like him live it will never be so.

Will it? From what I remember him saying, it has 2000 elves, most of which are sterile seniles, and that in 5 years, only a few elves were born. I am not sure that's a viable future, at all.
And even if it does survive, it will remain a weak puppet of Nilfgaard, who will not think twice before sacrificing it should they need to.

I'd find the propect of a free multi-racial Pontar to be much more attractive than this.

[KnightofPhoenix]

blothulfur wrote...

I agree the elves cannot afford any more battles of honour or great struggles what i'm saying is they need to consolidate and focus on rebuilding themselves apart from humanity in one of their two homelands so that they can forge a place in the world independant of humanity but with the quiet assurance that they have the strength to defend themselves as strong nations.

But that's not possible at the moment. The Blue Mountains are unsuitable to building a strong independent nation. Neither is the Valley of Flowers which is dependent on a human empire already.  Elves lack the numbers to build a strong nation on their own.

I do agree hwoever that a lot of the problem is the elven attitude itself. They are fighting old wars with their victim mentality that it's not going to take them anywhere. But I am not sure they can be as useful as dwarves. Apaprently they don't know agriculture, are not as good in blacksmithing, or mines....etc. Not sure they have any business sense. So I am nto sure how useful they can be other than elite archers.

But I agree that it is in large part self-fullfilling prophecy, and that's tragic sometimes. 

[Costin_Razvan]

Will it? From what I remember him saying, it has 2000 elves, most of which are sterile seniles, and that in 5 years, only a few elves were born. I am not sure that's a viable future, at all.
And even if it does survive, it will remain a weak puppet of Nilfgaard, who will not think twice before sacrificing it should they need to.

I'd find the propect of a free multi-racial Pontar to be much more attractive than this.

If there is a lesson to be learned from the likes Eilheart and Sile, it's this:

Francesca's no one's puppet.

Iorveth may think differently, but Iorveth would also be a fool that was manipulated twice. Francesca helped write the treaty that made her Queen ( yes the Lodge was the one that wrote that peace treaty, secretly of course ). She is considered one of the most powerful if not the most powerful among mages and I think we both can agree that in her place we would have taken the same measures against the Scoia'tel, as in execute them.

The problem is people like Iorveth and Yaevinn draw to them the elven youth to fight...and perhaps not so surprisingly the remaining young elves don't want to fight ( I can tell you this for a fact, not many people would want to leave their home regions, no matter how ****ty the situation is ), but nor do many of them want to make the long journey to Dol Blathanna. So the low birth and population are also because of things not related to her own decisions..

Iorveth is also biased. I believe in that dream of his, what also believe is that is somewhat selfish, he doesn't just want elves to have their own nation or such, but HE wants to live in peace and not die for the cause ( even if him dying would solve quite a few issues ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 17 juillet 2011 - 03:23 .

[blothulfur]

Well humans have thrived in worse conditions and with survivors like Iorveth who must know centuries of survival tricks with living as a wolfshead for so long they could surely learn the skills needed but I agree that the prospects on their present course seem doomed, and the king of the wild hunts offers must seem very tempting in the face of such tragedy.

Be interesting to learn why elves became so unused to the rigours of life, almost seems like the citizens of the modern worlds more affluent nations.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Costin
Findabair being a powerful sorceress is completely irrelevent. It was Nilfgaard that created the state and it cannot remain in existence without Nilfgaardian assistance (they can't even have agriculture). In such a power relation, it can't be anything but a dependent puppet, even if its ruler may not be. And I doubt Emhyr is going to allow Findabiar to think she is her own Queen. The other alternative is being dependent on another human nation, and I doubt the Northern Kingdoms would oblige.

Convincing elves to make a mass exodus to the Valley of Flowers sounds even harder to pull off than helping Saskia. And if the Valley faced famine with a such low population, I dread to think what will happen if they are over-flooded with elves.  I see very little propsect for that pseudo-nation personally. Not that I think the Free Pontar's chance for success are that high, but I'd go with the latter were I in this desperate position. Integration with other races sounds more like a viable option for the future than trying to build a nation fro mscratch with such low numbers and little skills.

And of course, were I in Emhyr or Findabair's position, I would have exeucted all Scoia'Tael. And were I in Iorveth's position, I would have preferred the Saskia option.

I do partially agree that Iorveth being alive may be more detrimental to the elven cause as he might think. At the same time however, he is the only one who can unite all the Scoia'Tael into one cohesive force. Which imo, would be invaluable, if they stop acting like terrorists and focus their efforts in more efficient methods.

And now I gtg. Cheers!

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 juillet 2011 - 03:31 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Do recall that in that book the elves can't farm due to the fact they don't have farmland ( it's not a matter of what they can or not do, they are hiding in caves in that situation! ).

And I doubt Emhyr is going to allow Findabiar to think she is her own Queen

The valley isn't even bordered by Nilfgaard but by Lyria and Aedirn. Francessca is also a shrewd politician, if Phillipa is anything to go by, thinking that she can controlled would be a gross mistake.

Why does it seem to me Iorveth is only willing to change because is madly in love....with a Dragon of all people!

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 17 juillet 2011 - 03:36 .

[Vandergrift]

Fragments from vol 4 of saga.


"-Do you know, witcher, what is the biggest con of long lifespan?
-No.
-Sex.
-What?
-You heard right. Sex. After 100 years it is bacame boring."

"-And what it is happening? Elves man bored with bored elven woman starting with always ready and willing human women. Bored elven womans follow they perversion curiosity and do it with vigorous and enthusiastic human males. Then happens something that no one can explain: elven woman who ovulate once per ten years have ovulation after any stronger orgasm..."

It is also mentioned that only young elves can have children, most of young elves are Scoia'Tael now. Blue mountain is land with no food for many more elves, it have problem with providing food to elves that are already there.
Nilfgaard in pact with Northen Kingdoms  forced Valley of Flowers to cut ties Scoia'Tael, they not allowed to enter. Also even if they can with they population and low birth rate they can stand independent. Valley of Flowers cant exist in peace with Northen Kingdoms without Nilfgaard political support, also it have problem with food supplies for more elves.
Iorveth is realisitc despite all his hatred.
Luxorek with his better English can explain it better.

My favorite from the witcher
Iorveth: You are first human that i like.
Geralt: I am not a human.
I: Good my hatred for this kind might lose it strenght
Or something like that, i dont have englis game version.

Modifié par Vandergrift, 17 juillet 2011 - 05:18 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Is it said in the books AFTER the peace treaty that the Valley of Flowers can't grow it's own food?

Yes I know that in one book BEFORE the war they couldn't...but they only had a few caves to hide in back then.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 17 juillet 2011 - 05:14 .

[Vandergrift]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Is it said in the books AFTER the peace treaty that the Valley of Flowers can't grow it's own food?

Yes I know that in one book BEFORE the war they couldn't...but they only had a few caves to hide in back then.

Food is no good without young elvs that can have children. Most of young elves were misleded by Nilfgaard and become Scoia'Tael and Enter the Valley of Flowers, no future for this place.

[Costin_Razvan]

Food is no good without young elvs that can have children. Most of young elves were misleded by Nilfgaard and become Scoia'Tael and Enter the Valley of Flowers, no future for this place.

Yet we meet a lot of young elves in the game that didn't become Scoia'Tel, so yes there is a future for it.

The problem...well people like Iorveth must die first. The Pontar Valley is a longshot, a very BIG one.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 17 juillet 2011 - 05:29 .

[Vandergrift]

You dont know how old they are. But more important is why they don't want to go to Valley of Flowers.
Valley of Flowers is Nilfgaard and Nilfgaard don't have goal them to live, something opposite.
In long term Emhyr want kill older Races and what use will be existence of Valley of Flowers after kicking Nordlings ass.

PS: I like discussing things with You. It is hard and i must refresh my knowledge about the lore. With you avoiding argument ad persona it is relay fun.
s*** we lured out dev once  
And for you All, many of you is from USA and Canada so we have difference in time. It helped me survive 3 weeks of night shift, in work I checked forum by cell phone and follow discussion. Greets from Poland.

Modifié par Vandergrift, 17 juillet 2011 - 06:31 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I don't know many of them seemed quite young to me I suppose, they may not be moving since many people wouldn't want to abandon their homes no matter how ****ty they are ( as I mentioned ) and have to start over.

I am interested in hearing where Emhyr wants to commit genocide though. Yes he killed the leaders of the Scoia'Tel, so what of it?

[billy the squid]

It is rather interesting that Emhyr pops up in these discussions, he seems to have an effect far beyond the territorial limits of the Nilfgaardian Empire via diplomatic and political cunning as much as through military prowess. It does intrigue me, so I would like to know more about him as a character, in the coming conflict.

With refrence to Findabiar, I don't believe Emhyr would need to make it obvious to Findabiar that her position as Queen is dependant on Nilfgaard's continued support and recognition of Dol Blathanna. If Findabiar is a politically shrewd ruler, then one could assume that she would take steps to keep Emhyr's support. Which I think she seems to be, considering that she sided with Nilfgaard in the second war, if one looks at the course of the war and the scale of the invasion, The smart money appeard to be on Nilfgaard, so to speak.

It also makes it a potential bonus for Emhyr, as any attack on the Dol Blathanna by the Northern Kingdoms, provides him with a perfect excuse for re invading the North to "defend his allies" which is possibly why Findabair would be reluctant to disassociate herself with Nilfgaard as the loss of political protection, I see, as too tempting a target for one of the other Northern Kingdoms. Yet, should Dol Blathanna remain as a puppet kingdom of Nilfgaard, I'm unsure that any individual king would dare attack for risk of ending up in a one on one war with the Nilfgaardian Empire.

She could quite likely try to break ties with Nilfgaard and establish an alliance with one of the Neighbouring powers, but considering that Emhyr's actions potentially crippled the lodge of sorceressess, damaged the ability of the North to fight a war against Nilfgaard, and Emhyr doesn't seem to be hampered by internal disputes, with the nobles attempting to assassinate him in the middle of a conflict. I don't know how effective it would be.

With this in mind, I don't think Findabiar should be underestimated as a weak willed puppet, but Emhyr seems to be just as adept and cunning at removing or mitigating potential threats, so I don't believe he has underestimated her, but she doesn't seem to be in a position to risk openly defying Emhyr, particularly if the viper school becomes re established, but used as a tool of political domination by the Empire.

But, a lot of what I have babbled on about is mainly supossition, but its fun none the less.

Modifié par billy the squid, 17 juillet 2011 - 06:18 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Do recall that in that book the elves can't farm due to the fact they don't have farmland ( it's not a matter of what they can or not do, they are hiding in caves in that situation! ).

And does the valley have fertile land?
The Pontar Valley is known to be rich with natural resources on the otherhand.

The valley isn't even bordered by Nilfgaard but by Lyria and Aedirn. Francessca is also a shrewd politician, if Phillipa is anything to go by, thinking that she can controlled would be a gross mistake.

Why does it seem to me Iorveth is only willing to change because is madly in love....with a Dragon of all people!

It doesn't have to be bordered by Nilfgaard. We saw that Nilgaard is quite capable of having La Valettes under their protection. Shilard demonstrated that Nilfgaard can project its power in the North.

Francessca might be shrewd, but she would be nothing compared to Emhyr from what I've heard and seen so far. Also, Radovid played Philippa with relative ease, and Letho was able to fool them. If they can't be used, they can certainly be manipulated. Also like Billy said, it's not in Findabair's interests to defy Nilfgaard, especially not now when it virtually brought the North to its knees. 

I doubt it's that simple when it comes to Iorveth. If Iorveth is in love, it's imo, mostly because Saskia represents his dream. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 juillet 2011 - 07:29 .

[xkg]

This is going to be Off-Topic.

Just to show how SELECTIVE moderation can be.

TW2 is alowed to have only single thread. All other TW2 threads are being closed.
Lets look at the first OFF TOPIC forum page now.

3 almost exactly same Deus EX threads - 2 of them made by the same guy - and no one cares.
Sweet




Of course that dude couldn't ask "how long this game is" in his already running thread. big LOL

Modifié par xkg, 17 juillet 2011 - 10:31 .