13812 réponses à ce sujet

[android654]

Addai67 wrote...

android654 wrote...
I think in order for it to be rape there must be force and no semblance of choice or decision.

Coercion= force.  I can't believe we're even discussing this.  Next topic.

The way I understand the scenario was it was a quid pro quo. You give me sex, I set you free. Force would mean that there is no choice at all. In a less serious situation it would be like a teacher or a boss propositioning a subordinate or student in order to get a promotion or a passing grade. It's ridiculously slimy and evil, but by definition I'm sure it's not rape but harassment or sexual extortion.

[Addai]

There's no argument. If you really think "you do this and I won't kill you and/or your friends" is not rape, you need your head examined Costin. Or some other part of your psyche.

I think it'd have been more satisfying to have Roche castrate him but leave him alive. Unfortunately that would leave him squealing.

[Costin_Razvan]

Right because I have an issue with people putting wrong labels on stuff, sure. Excuse me if I have a goddamn issue with your logic when real rape victims have suffer a hell lot worse then Ves does and who does deserve getting killed. 

What happened to slaves, and is happening nowadays, now that's rape, and I know quite a damned bit about the subject seeing where I live. Excuse me if I don't feel the same way towards what happens to Ves as a spy ( regardless of what Roche says there is no way anyone in Henselt's position would view her otherwise ) as I do towards women, girls even who are kidnapped from their homes or tricked into leaving their country to work in others then they end up as slave workers. It happens a lot in my country.

Feel free to hate what Henselt does, I don't agree with it by any means, but don't ****ing compare it to some of the real suffering people endure.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 mars 2012 - 07:05 .

[Addai]

Whether she "deserved" it or not- what is that even?- or suffered more than this or that person is totally irrelevant. It's still rape.

Look, I don't need to like Henselt just because you do. I didn't like him before this. He's a pig. And I already said if I was actually playing Roche's game for real, I'd probably go back and make Geralt stop Roche from killing him. You were obviously eager to jump down my throat for being "emotional" and not playing the game exactly as you do. Killing Henselt is a decision that Roche makes, not Geralt. The fact that they give the player choice on it is kind of cheap, since it's not Geralt wielding the knife. My mentality was more "do what you want" rather than "he has to die."

[Dave of Canada]

Isn't it implied that it's suspicious that Ves survived and that she might've betrayed her unit?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 28 mars 2012 - 07:09 .

[Augustei]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Henselt is a bastard and he is awesome nonetheless.

And I'll be blunt, I think killing Henselt is stupid.

In my first playthrough I thought about it due to his conspiring with Nilfgaard in the last war, and how he was in talks with their ambassador in TW2 which I then discovered he was made an offer and rejected it. But yeah decided to spare him since his death would weaken the North to greatly and idc about how he had the blue stripes killed to much, I mean he is justified since he thought they were part of the conspiricy since their leader was.

But yeah he is pretty awesome, No Radovid but still awesome

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
He took it like a man as far as I am concerned.
And at the end, he knew Roche would kill him and told him to get on with it.

Roche: Look me in the eyes when I...
Henselt: Go on! Do it!
Roche: *Stabs*
Henselt: A Flea, has bitten a lion!
Something like that anyway, was an intereresting scene

[Costin_Razvan]

Oh and saying people have mental issues is perfectly fine because they disagree with you eh? I've called people many things, and gotten back the same ( and I don't expect anything else ), but don't expect me to be fine after what you've just said. Ves was a spy, and I find it very hard to find any compasion for her in the situation she in when a lot more people suffer a hell lot worse.

I always jump down the throat of anyone who makes illogical decisions based on emotions, why the hell do you think I argued against so many who killed Loghain?

 Isn't it implied that it's suspicious that Ves survived and that she might've betrayed her unit?

That's a good question. We don't really find out though.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 mars 2012 - 07:15 .

[Luxorek]

Yay, it's almost like politics. Conflict and agreement, which is reached when one side starts to pretend that it buys the "truth" of the other party. So let jump in...

Yep, Ves was raped. In exchange for the lives of her comrades, she offered herself to Henselt. As we know, Henselt didn't keep his word. He lied. Now, I do not know to what kind of definion of rape you adhere to nor would I want to know, but here is the thing. Sexual assault/rape is defined in almost every single Criminal Code of this world - and most of them agree to one thing that it is a "sexual intercourse, of any kind, with a person of the opposite sex or of the same sex, by coercion of this person or by taking advantage of the person’s inability to defend him/herself...".

If by any chance you don't know what coercion is, and never bothered to check after playing Dragon Age I suggest to do it now. Now we can drop this topic. Forever prefferably.

[Augustei]

Wouldn't be so bad if Nilfgaard won and conquered the north would it? or is that just me?

[Augustei]

Luxorek wrote...
If by any chance you don't know what coercion is, and never bothered to check after playing Dragon Age I suggest to do it now. Now we can drop this topic. Forever prefferably.

I take it you didn't know what it meant until you played Dragon Age? =P

[Costin_Razvan]

No it wouldn't be I think, of course the anti-imperialists would disagree from the very start.

Now we can drop this topic. Forever prefferably.

Because people are uncomfortable talking about it and would just rather avoid it? Right, nice logic, we might as well all the issues regarding the problem then as well right? See that's my issue with it, but thank you very much about saying I don't know what coercion is.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 mars 2012 - 07:21 .

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Oh and saying people have mental issues is perfectly fine because they disagree with you eh? Sure go ahead. Ves was a spy, and I find it very hard to find any compasion for her in the situation she in when a lot more people suffer a hell lot worse.

I always jump down the throat of anyone who makes illogical decisions based on emotions, why the hell do you I think so many people who kill Loghain?

Compassion has nothing to do with it.

And like I said, it's Roche making the decision to kill Henselt.  I prefer to let NPCs have some leeway, part of preferring that they are individuals and not overly influenced by the PC.  Like I said, I saw it as Geralt staying out of it rather than him deciding whether or not Henselt dies.

If you're supporting Nilfgaard, why did you stop him?

[Costin_Razvan]

If you're supporting Nilfgaard, why did you stop him?

I did it for Roche's sake actually from the very start. At the time I didn't really like Henselt that much since I felt the writers had just taken a cheap route with what happened with the Blue Stripes and had made him a villain. ( I actually liked Dethmold a lot more then Henselt, and still do ). I also "romanced" or well had sex with Ves from the very start.

As for Nilfgaard winning. I'd like to be given the option sure, but I won't take it unless I have reason to.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 mars 2012 - 07:24 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Wouldn't be so bad if Nilfgaard won and conquered the north would it? or is that just me?

Not the end of the world no.
It's very rare for a game to make me like almost every faction involved.

I will give my final opinion when I see the empire in person and how it is structured. But as of now, Emhyr Var Emreis intrigues me.

And kudos to you for liking Radovid, you understand.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 mars 2012 - 07:29 .

[Costin_Razvan]

How did you get that picture Knight? Always curios about that.

But yeah it's conflicting for me since I read the books, or read about Emhyr, He's a nice character.

[Dave of Canada]

Luxorek wrote...

Yep, Ves was raped. In exchange for the lives of her comrades, she offered herself to Henselt. As we know, Henselt didn't keep his word. He lied.

That depends on who you're really believing.

I seem to recall it's implied Ves might've betrayed her unit, which puts the entire scenario into another perspective. She's lying to Roche, the rape scene is only mentioned by her and you're listening to her side of the story. Now, not that I'm saying that Henselt isn't capable of rape, but this certainly would make Roche bloodthirsty and not think of anything else.

Which prompts Ves to say to not go after Henselt, he's surrounded by an army and it's suicide. She's placing the blame on somebody who's untouchable, at least in her eyes, from Roche. Roche would have to accept his unit's death, Ves would've gained what she got from her part of the deal and nobody would be the wiser.

That is, until Geralt and Roche surround Henselt and confront him about it. Now, once again I'm not saying Henselt is incapable of rape, though he suggests that she wanted it. This might be simply to provoke Roche but Henselt has no reason to lie, he believes himself untouchable even during that situation because he's monarch to both Kaedwen and Aedirn and he's surrounded by his army.

[Costin_Razvan]

There's also that, besides how one can interpret the scene there's what Geralt says: "I can't believe Henselt would just let her go."

Actually why did Henselt let her go? If he had really raped her then why spare her? Just to ****** off Roche? I guess it's a possibility but I'd rather not look at it like that since it would make Henselt a pathetic villain who would be worse then Loredo ( and Loredo despite being written brilliantly is scum, but not really a villain ).

Another reason why one might want to spare Henselt: Well I just spent the entire goddamn game trying to clear Geralt's name for being a supposed Kingslayer, the last thing I want is for him to actually become one.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 mars 2012 - 07:31 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

How did you get that picture Knight? Always curios about that.

Dona made it for me.

[Costin_Razvan]

Ah I see.

Hmm, you have any thoughts on Henselt yourself or?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

There's also that, besides how one can interpret the scene there's what Geralt says: "I can't believe Henselt would just let her go."

Actually why did Henselt let her go? If he had really raped her then why spare her? Just to ****** off Roche? I guess it's a possibility but I'd rather not look at it like that since it would make Henselt a pathetic villain who would be worse then Loredo ( and Loredo despite being written brilliantly is scum ).

I see Henselt doing it as a cruel joke. In his mind, he kept a promise that Vess misunderstood.
Vess understood that if she slept with Henselt, he'd spare her and her unit. As it turns out, Henselt only meant her.

I do not agree with Dave's interpretation, I do not see Vess as the kind that owuld betray her unit to save her own skin.
The reason she didn't mention the deal (her lying as Geralt said it) is because she feels incredibly guilty for what happened. Survivor's guilt.

[Addai]

No reason for Henselt to lie about Ves "wanting it" except that a man with that sized ego believes everyone wants it.

I don't see any reason to buy that scenario. There's nothing concrete that supports it, just the circumstantial fact that Ves is the only one that makes it out alive. That's also consistent with Henselt being an ass- he wants someone to bear the tale as warning.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 mars 2012 - 07:35 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Ah I see.

Hmm, you have any thoughts on Henselt yourself or?

For me Henselt is a great character whether he raped her or not. A bastard (though the sad reality is thatsomething like that was considered to be the norm back in the day), who happens to be a good king.

[Costin_Razvan]

Addai: Fair enough then, Henselt certainly is an ass I won't dispute that. I'd hope though we get some clarification on the matter in EE though. We'll see.

I always view him as King Robet, but a King Robet who actually knows **** about politics.

Knight: I think there are very few good rulers throughout history that where not ****s, even if they were loved by their people.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 mars 2012 - 07:39 .

[Addai]

I don't see how Henselt is such a great king. The political trailer even says that he only preserves his rule through fear. No one in his camp respects him currently (they talk about him as being one of the guys in the past). In one scenario he loses to Saskia's ragtag army, and on Roche's path half his men are conspiring to get rid of him, both nobles and the common soldier.

[Costin_Razvan]

His men don't like Nilfgaard's presence in the camp, but they still respect him. Zivik is also very loyal to him, so I'd hardly say that everyone doesn't like him, a number certainly but many? Doubt it.

As for half his army, that just the nobles Roche bought who have men following their orders not Henselt's. In medieval times the men followed their lord for the most part, not their king directly.

As for him ruling through fear, we never see Henselt actually suppresing non-humans, hell we have that dwarf in the camp, yes we have that Scoia'Tel ready to be executed...but Scoia'Tel are terrorists. As for him being a good politician, he managed to kidnap Anais and force Radovid to split Temeria between them.

In regards to losing at Vergen, yes and? Just because one lost a battle doesn't make him a bad ruler, because almost everyone who ever fought multiple wars lost a battle at one point or another. ( Even the famed Alexander ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 mars 2012 - 07:46 .