13812 réponses à ce sujet

[Luxorek]

XxDeonxX wrote...
I take it you didn't know what it meant until you played Dragon Age? =P

No, I believe I first encountered the word "coerce" in a sentence "coerced abortion". Australian Jesuit education, 'nuff said.

Costin_Razvan...
Because people are uncomfortable talking about it and would just rather
avoid it? Right, nice logic, we might as well all the issues regarding
the problem then as well right?

No, not because of it. There was a doubt whether Ves has truly been raped. She has been. And I as hell am not going to touch the "deserved or not" territory. End of the story. If your only argument is that it doesn't fit your definition of rape, then again - for me, it is the end of the story. No point in discussing it.

Modifié par Luxorek, 28 mars 2012 - 07:46 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

I don't see how Henselt is such a great king. The political trailer even says that he only preserves his rule through fear. No one in his camp respects him currently (they talk about him as being one of the guys in the past). In one scenario he loses to Saskia's ragtag army, and on Roche's path half his men are conspiring to get rid of him, both nobles and the common soldier.

The political trailer is narrated by Shilard, who is not the most objective source. He claims that Henselt succumbed to Dethmold's influence when it's not really the case.

Zyvik respects and loves Henselt and the men we interact with are dissapointed precisely because they love him.

Henselt displayed a lack of strong leadership when about half his army quit the field (but they did not conspire to remove him, the conspirators were definitely not half his men and they were annihilated). But in his defense, that's mostly due to the idiotic feudal structure that gives nobles the power to do that to begin with (which you like).

Looking at it from another perspective, Henselt can defeat Saskia, despite her having a huge defensive advantage and with half his army deserting, relatively easily and then potentially spread his influence to Aedirn and Temeria, virtually controlling 3/4s of the North.

Henselt is not a Radovid, but there is no doubt that he is a good ruler who took a massive gambit.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 mars 2012 - 07:48 .

[Costin_Razvan]

There was a doubt whether Ves has truly been raped. She has been. And I as hell am not going to touch the "deserved or not" territory.

She deserved to be killed really. Henselt was entirely within his right to do so and he had everything in regards to the law on his side. Just so we are clear on what I meant earlier. That Henselt offered her leniency in exchange to sex, well I don't view that being the same as someone forcing a person who has commited no crimes being held at gunpoint by a random thug and either accepting to be raped or being shot.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 mars 2012 - 07:50 .

[HoonDing]

android654 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

android654 wrote...
I think in order for it to be rape there must be force and no semblance of choice or decision.

Coercion= force.  I can't believe we're even discussing this.  Next topic.

The way I understand the scenario was it was a quid pro quo. You give me sex, I set you free. Force would mean that there is no choice at all. In a less serious situation it would be like a teacher or a boss propositioning a subordinate or student in order to get a promotion or a passing grade. It's ridiculously slimy and evil, but by definition I'm sure it's not rape but harassment or sexual extortion.

In any case, it is a sex offense. Calling it "quid pro quo" is outrageous.

The entire discussion is moot, anyway, as Henselt is a medieval monarch and henceforth he is the law and can get away with everything. Until someone happens to stab him and gut him like a pig.

Modifié par virumor, 28 mars 2012 - 07:52 .

[Costin_Razvan]

In any case, it is a sex offense. Calling it "quid pro quo" is outrageous.

The definition does matter though, I never said I was fine with it, because I am not ( in fact I view Henselt as an idiot for doing it ). Ultimately though applying modern laws to a medieval universe doesn't really work, which I didn't bother saying it was a sex offense. ( Medieval societies didn't even have such a law, hell it was pretty much accepted that a peasant could do almost whatever he wanted with his wife, in fact even today in quite a few nations people can get away with raping their spouse ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 mars 2012 - 07:55 .

[HoonDing]

In one of the side-adventures of Witcher 1, there is mention of Princess Deidre Ademeyn torturing a peasant to death just for fun.

Witcher universe is equivalent of dark middle ages, nobles could get away with anything.

[Costin_Razvan]

Price of Neutrality you mean?

There's a story here in Romania about one ruler ( Vlad Tepes ) impaling a peasant for making a comment about the stench of the rotting dead on nearby spikes.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 mars 2012 - 07:58 .

[HoonDing]

Yes, Sabrina Glevissig was in it as well.

[Costin_Razvan]

Now that one was kind of interesting. Especially Geralt sleeping Glevissig ( and he had to actually work for it ).

What did you do with the princess though?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 mars 2012 - 08:01 .

[HoonDing]

I tried all endings, but I like the one where you side with Deidre best. Ironically the neutral path is worst of all.

It was btw disappointing how CDPR ruined Sabrina's look in TW2. She looked like a generic village woman.

[Costin_Razvan]

Yeah I know. I dislike the hair most of all in TW2, it seems CDPR was just lazy at making at making long flowing hair for anyone but Geralt, which is sorta amusing. I also think her english VA was better in TW1 then TW2.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 mars 2012 - 08:18 .

[slimgrin]

Henselt coerced Vess into sex, I believe she thought he would spare the blue stripes. Not much better than rape imo. Like all the other kings he's a self entitled pompous ******, and has few redeeming qualities. But that sort of realism is what I love about The Witcher. That's how kings were in the 13th century.

Modifié par slimgrin, 29 mars 2012 - 12:07 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

slimgrin wrote...

Henselt coerced Vess into sex, I believe she thought he would spare the blue stripes. Not much better than rape imo. Like all the other kings he's a self entitled pompous ******, and has few redeeming qualities. But that sort of realism is what I love about The Witcher. That's how kings were in the 13th century.

I am not sure I agree, unless you mean personal qualities. I'd probably not find him likeable as a person.

But in general, I think he has enough redeeming qualities to make him a complex character. As in someone I would not categorize as "bad" unlike say Loredo. 

[Costin_Razvan]

Not much better than rape imo

I do agree, but there IS a difference. That's the entire purpose of my argument.

 But in general, I think he has enough redeeming qualities to make him a complex character. As in someone I would not categorize as "bad" unlike say Loredo.  

Pretty much. I think Henselt actually cares about his men and his country, and he doesn't treat his foes like idiots but gives them the respect they deserve. Unlike Loredo who only gives a damn for himself, and think everyone who fights him is scum.

Henselt is represents the type of person I really dislike, but you know what? I'd rather have someone like him then the current idiots running my country.

With that in mind however I do like how Loredo is written, even if he made that elf a sex slave for him, and deals with in drugs, prostitution, gambling and is willing to sell out everyone for what he wants. He IS realistic unlike Vaughn.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 mars 2012 - 12:45 .

[slimgrin]

I don't mean to say Henselt is evil. He has his values, such as respect for bravery or his adversaries in battle. But the kings, the way they act so superior, is both well done and really makes me hate them.

[Costin_Razvan]

slimgrin wrote...

But the kings, the way they act so superior, is both well done and really makes me hate them.

It's how a ruler should act. He or she should give an air of authority over others, and this does include superiority.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 mars 2012 - 01:00 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But in general, I think he has enough redeeming qualities to make him a complex character. As in someone I would not categorize as "bad" unlike say Loredo. 

What's the difference between him and Loredo?  For the fact that he was a backwater mayor, Loredo was pretty savvy and nearly upset the political balance of a couple countries.  He also played Geralt, Roche and Sile pretty well.  I was impressed by him after the first conversation at his estate.  Of course then you find out about the skeletons in his closet, but  he and Henselt share the same sadism, so I'm not seeing the difference other than one has a bigger pond.

It's how a ruler should act. He or she should give an air of authority over others, and this does include superiority.

No, there is a difference between the sort of arrogance that makes for a good ruler and someone who gets off on cruelty and believes himself untouchable.  Foltest didn't behave this way.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 mars 2012 - 01:20 .

[Costin_Razvan]

No, there is a difference between the sort of arrogance that makes for a good ruler and someone who gets off on cruelty and believes himself untouchable. Foltest didn't behave this way.

Besides Ves, what exactly are you talking about? Because I can point to quite a lot of things in regards to Loredo without mentioning that elven girl ( the way he treats the ****s, the way he arranges the boxing matches, the way he looks at the elves ) I can't however point to anything in regards to Henselt except how he might refer to Saskia when he meets her and I say might because that conversation plays out very differently on both paths depending on your choices.

That he uses Dethmold? Dethmold is loyal and effective but Henselt doesn't particulary like how Dethmold loves his job.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 mars 2012 - 01:30 .

[Addai]

His reputation as the happy hangman, and Sabrina Glevissig's execution. Not just that she was executed mind you, but that she wasn't given a clean death.

[slimgrin]

We need clarification I think. I hate the personalities of the kings because they are so well written, because they act with such impunity. That is no doubt what the writers were aiming for. Do I think an effective ruler need act like Henselt? No way. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 29 mars 2012 - 01:33 .

[Costin_Razvan]

The political trailer? It doesn't match up to what's in the game in many ways, can I ask when exactly does Henselt act like a jerk towards nonhumans? Or when is it mentioned that Henselt hates nonhumans? As for those traitors...well treason is punishable by death in many countries, so is desertion.

As for Sabrina. I can't say I felt any sort of pity for a woman who so casually murdered 3000 men and even Radovid burns sorceresses at the stake, so I see her execution as something normal for a mage. I just don't see how Henselt in the game is a sadist compared to Radovid or Foltest besides the Ves argument.

  Do I think an effective ruler need act like Henselt? No way.  

All of them? Well I guess I'll beg to differ.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 mars 2012 - 01:49 .

[DragonRageGT]

Costin, have you watched The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo?

Lisbeth has been raped twice in the movie. First at the office and then at her legal guardian's house. First time there was no violence except emotional and blackmail for oral sex. There wasn't even penetration. Second time she was brutally attacked, hand-cuffed to a bed and violated physically.

Both times it was rape. If you can't see Ves has been raped, man, you are ...

[Costin_Razvan]

How about you use a stronger argument then a movie Rage. Ves isn't a girl blackmailed by a guy who knows some dirty secret on her, nor is she an innocent person who gets violated by a thug. She is a spy on death row about to be executed for her crimes and is offered lenience in exchange for screwing Henselt. If you can't see the difference between the two I don't have anything else to say.

The law on coersion was made so that bosses couldn't abuse their employes in that fashion that you are talking about, or for people in general to not get away with blackmail.

If you want to say Henselt is an ass for what he does, then sure fine by me and I agree with you. I even consider him an idiot for doing it, and a ****** for sparing her.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 mars 2012 - 02:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But in general, I think he has enough redeeming qualities to make him a complex character. As in someone I would not categorize as "bad" unlike say Loredo. 

What's the difference between him and Loredo?  For the fact that he was a backwater mayor, Loredo was pretty savvy and nearly upset the political balance of a couple countries.  He also played Geralt, Roche and Sile pretty well.  I was impressed by him after the first conversation at his estate.  Of course then you find out about the skeletons in his closet, but  he and Henselt share the same sadism, so I'm not seeing the difference other than one has a bigger pond.

Yes Loredo is pretty smart and competent.

He is also a corrupt addicted drug dealer who only cares about himself. Henselt cares about his kingdom, his people and his men. In fact he shows respect to his enemies and even shows sadness at them being massacred by Sabrina. He has martial pride, likes it when people challenge him (see his convo with Geralt) and does not underestimate his foes. He leads his men at the front.

Henselt is a bastard but he is not Loredo. No man like Loredo can engender the same kind of loyalty that men like Zyvik show.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 mars 2012 - 02:12 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The political trailer? It doesn't match up to what's in the game in many ways, can I ask when exactly does Henselt act like a jerk towards nonhumans? Or when is it mentioned that Henselt hates nonhumans?.

Actually the dwarf in his camp mentions that they are not treated well. Saskia refers to his persecution of nonhumans as well.

His TW1 journal: "He is also known for his intense hatred of nonhumans."

TW2 journal: "Yet that was not the sole reason for King Henselt's reputation as an
unpleasant person, much bolstered by the monarch's ambitions and
quarrels with his neighbors, and by his ruthless policies towards
nonhumans, whom he persecuted with a passion, squandering his realm's
strength and funds."


Yes Henselt is an ass towards nonhumans, even by Northern standards.