13812 réponses à ce sujet

[slimgrin]

I don't get it. I've completed Troll Trouble like 4 times now, and each time I got what was one of my favorite exchanges in the game. Chorab tries to cop out from paying, saying he's hard up for cash, and Geralt says something like if he doesn't want to be hard of for fingers he'd better pay. It was my favorite comic line in the game. I got something totally different this time. the line of dialog I remembered is skipped altogether. What have other people experienced?

Damn, I've checked several youtube vids, and I can't find one with that exchange. I must have done something different before.

Modifié par slimgrin, 23 avril 2012 - 12:08 .

[Zcorck]

slimgrin wrote...

Jan Bartkowicz wrote...

Lead Writer's full name is Sebastian Stępień (credited as the Lead Story and Dialogue Designer)
I don't remember who wrote the sorcereses.
Trolls were written by Arkadiusz Borowik.
Dwarves were a collaboration (I wrote most of the inn dialog in the beginning of the immortele quest, and the lesbomancy part. Arkadiusz Borowik wrote most of everything else.
Geralts says Ves lied in regard to her telling Roche that Henselt just let her go.

It was nice to hear from the writers in the recent interview where 'Jesse goes to Poland' vid. I particularly liked this comment: "We hate stupid games, we work here so that we can make games that are not stupid." lol. Got points from me. Link well worth checking out guys:



Also, props to FWH for giving away Extended Edition of Hard Reset for free.

Well worth it indeed!
Jesse also talks about Witcher 2 & CDPR on TheGameStation podcast starting ca. 28m40s in at www.youtube.com/watch
They spent the preceeding 6-7 minutes on talking about BioWare if anyone's interested in that as well.

Modifié par Zcorck, 23 avril 2012 - 12:59 .

[Khayness]

Zcorck wrote...

They spent the preceeding 6-7 minutes on talking about BioWare if anyone's interested in that as well.

Omg, he slams Obsidian sequels and Jade Empire. /nerdrage

Edit1: So much Game of Thrones comparisons, the whole bookset has been taunting me since christmas, summer can't come soon enough.

Edit2: 38:30, best part about discussing maturity and games.

Edit3: Okay, that was a serious topic swich from doing VO for CDPR to Maxim articles in one minute.

Edit4: Right, the Witcher part pretty much ends around 45 mins. Was interesting while it lasted, nice find.

Modifié par Khayness, 23 avril 2012 - 01:34 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Just when I thought I can't possibly like TotalHalibut more. He gets it. And Jesse sounds cool.

EDIT: I really liked Jade Empire actually.
It's really Bioware's recent trackrecord that pisses me off: ME2, DA2, ME3 and ToR. BS writing.
Kotor, Jade Empire,  ME1 and DA:O + Awakening were very good, but not on The Witcher's level.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 avril 2012 - 01:40 .

[Savber100]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Just when I thought I can't possibly like TotalHalibut more. He gets it. And Jesse sounds cool.

EDIT: I really liked Jade Empire actually.
It's really Bioware's recent trackrecord that pisses me off: ME2, DA2, ME3 and ToR. BS writing.
Kotor, Jade Empire,  ME1 and DA:O + Awakening were very good, but not on The Witcher's level.  

 I'm curious why you think Bioware's writing is in decline (which I don't really disagree btw).

Is the decline of Bioware's writing due to EA's influence? People go claiming it is due to Bioware dumbing down for the lowest common denominator but honestly that doesn't make much sense. When has Bioware or any video game company lose out in writing a cohesive, strong narrative?

What changed? Bad writers? Not enough time? 

Modifié par Savber100, 23 avril 2012 - 02:40 .

[Khayness]

Savber100 wrote...

What changed? Bad writers? Not enough time? 

That happens if you have the story and characters divided between writing teams and they don't get to coordinate well enough.

Modifié par Khayness, 23 avril 2012 - 02:40 .

[AxisEvolve]

Savber100 wrote...
Not enough time? 

That's probably the main issue..... It's usually a lot of factors that can destory a great idea..
 
Look at television shows, how often are the first 2 or 3 seasons incredible and then the final 4,5, 6, ect seasons  complete unwatchable crap? More often than not. As well with sequels in books or movies...

Artists just burn up so much creativity actually creating something than when they are forced to expand on something in a way that wasn't originally intended it kind of doesn't trigger that much imagination and artistry.

That's my opinion.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Savber100 wrote...
 I'm curious why you think Bioware's writing is in decline (which I don't really disagree btw).

Is the decline of Bioware's writing due to EA's influence? People go claiming it is due to Bioware dumbing down for the lowest common denominator but honestly that doesn't make much sense. When has Bioware or any video game company lose out in writing a cohesive, strong narrative?

What changed? Bad writers? Not enough time? 

I don't know the root causes, but I know the symptoms.

But I have to say that while yes Bioware's writing declined, a lot of the problems I see were still present before, they were just not overblown.

The simplistic moral dichotomy was always there. It was in Kotor (though fine, we can blame it on Star Wrs as a whole), it was in Jade Empire (while not as bad as dark vs light, Closed Fist vs Open Palm is not a nuanced as it should have been), it was in ME1 (Renegade vs paragon was also not as nuanced as it should have been). I thought Origins was the first Bioware game that I played that tried to go beyond that with some success, but it still had very manichean moments.

Out of all the above mentionned games, only one did not have a big bad evil villain, which was Jade Empire (one of my favorite antagonists). The rest were all focused on the big bad, a concept that is ultimately childish and immature no matter how well executed it is (and Sovereign was well executed in ME1). This often leads to what I like to call the "excessive supernatural effect." It's when supernatural elements (and yea I consider the Reapers supernatural, in the sense that they are not "human", but completely "other") are given too much importance that they end up stripping the story and its characters of humanity. ME1 and DA:O had it (though the former to a lesser extent because the darkspawn were thankfully in the background).  Kotor may not have had it but their cartoonish portrayal of the vast majority of Sith (only 2 exceptions I can think of) pretty much makes them completely unrelatable and lacking nuance. Jade Empire though does it well. Now for sure this is a matter of taste, some like high fantasy (and the premise that DA is "dark fantasy" is BS. Or that ME isn't high fantasy is also BS). But I contend that high fantasy is easier to write than real complex human issues with multi-faceted factions and characters involved, something that Bioware was never good at. 

Related to both, Bioware was always mediocre to bad at writing real political intrigue with complex social and human issues that are tackled with intelligence, nuance and maturity. That is due to their over-simplifications, their forced imposition of bad dichotomies and of aforementioned supernatural elements that are usually (though not always) used in lieu of development of characters and of the issue itself.  

Also, Bioware's writing was always to an extent melodramatic. Their moments of subtelty were not that many to begin with. Emotions were overcharged so as to make the characters feel monotone and one dimensional, issues were blown out of proportion...etc

These are problems that Bioware always had. Unfortunately, all of them were accentuated after Origins / Awakening.
Whatever Bioware had in substance was gradually replaced, in my eyes, with appearance which is superficial. Perhaps it is due to an attempt to appeal to everyone. I am not sure.

DA2 is the  best example of how all the problems I mentionned before were blown out of proportion.
Some surely believe that DA2 did not have an obvious big bad (even though it was pretty obvious), but the fact of the matter is, when you shove in Soul Edge relic that turns people mad, coupled with insanity and demons in every corner due to a teir in the veil (a pathetic attempt to justify ****** poor writing) and then the possibility of it all being due to a darkspawn dreaming? Then I am sorry, but you have big bad evil BS all over the place, with a horrific implementation and execution (as opposed to Sovereign. And I say Sovereign only because the Reapers were screwed by ME3).  And God the melodrama in this game is unbelievable. Its portrayal of the mage / templar issue was simplistic and in a poor excuse of an attempt to make it nuanced and complex, ended up making it ridiculously full of insanity, incompetence and stupidity as to render it implausible and even hilarious (something they tried to fix with the teir in the veil BS).

So I am not sure what caused this decline, but it did not come out of nowhere. Bioware was never on CDPR's level when it comes to writing. Whatever attempts to make a complex political plot failed utterly (some political subplots were at best decent to good, but nothing stellar). Their forte, which is high fantasy, is easier to write than the issues and concepts CDPR tackles.

Another forte of Bioware was good companions and characters (though I'd argue that Bioware NPCs are usually weak, Origins being an exception for me), but with the increased melodrama and the more hamfisted imposition of dichotomies, even they are in decline, so much so that I was indifferent to most ME2 companions (Mordin being the gem), all DA2 *characters* (NPCs included) save 2 maybe 3, and all ME3 characters save 2-3. 
Compare that to the excellent cast of characters that TW2 had.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 avril 2012 - 03:20 .

[Savber100]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Related to both, Bioware was always mediocre to bad at writing real political intrigue with complex social and human issues that are tackled with intelligence, nuance and maturity. That is due to their over-simplifications, their forced imposition of bad dichotomies and of aforementioned supernatural elements that are usually (though not always) used in lieu of development of characters and of the issue itself.  

Also, Bioware's writing was always to an extent melodramatic. Their moments of subtelty were not that many to begin with. Emotions were overcharged so as to make the characters feel monotone and one dimensional, issues were blown out of proportion...etc

These are problems that Bioware always had. Unfortunately, all of them were accentuated after Origins / Awakening.

Wow... that was really a thoughtful, brilliant analysis there of which I agree mostly on. :happy: Personally, I don't mind the high fantasy storr arcs too much if they're well-executed (aka Dragon Age). 

That said, what steps do think Bioware have to take to amp up in terms of writing to match CDPR and even Obsidian? 

A total change of vision? I mean what did CDPR have that Bioware currently (and apparently never) had to produce a deep/complex, mature tale? Why do Bioware oversimplfy while companies (especailly from Eastern Europe) adds layer upon layer of execellent nunanced writing? 

I mean obviously different publishers with VERY contrasting business policy comes to mind but can it also be cultural thing as well? 

[Khayness]

Savber100 wrote...

That said, what steps do think Bioware have to take to amp up in terms of writing to match CDPR and even Obsidian?

Walk the talk.

They obviously has a clear vision about what they want to do, but they don't have the means to make it happen.

I'm still waiting for that personal RPG they promised and the epic space opera conclusion where your decisions will have a huge impact.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Savber100 wrote...
I mean obviously different publishers with VERY contrasting business policy comes to mind but can it also be cultural thing as well? 

It might be part of the reason yea, as well as the personal life experiences of the writers. But I would not say these are the only or even main factors.

As for what Bioware can do. Ideally, I would want a change of vision and writing philosophy yes. However, I also see the merits of having a diverse repertoire of story driven games.

So what would be great is if Bioware takes a long thorough look at Jade Empire and build on that. It had a lot of supernatural elements, but they were handled with tact and intelligence and they didn't take away from the humanity of the story, but in fact added to it. They just need to expand on the concept of different philosophies, except make it more nuanced and better than what we actually had. And avoid having portrayals like that of the Lotus assassins again (I still do not understand why they look like Sith with corrupted faces and black deformed hands).

It would not catch my interest as much as The Witcher's brilliant portrayal of politics, but it would be great to have games like that in my library.

Also, I'd appreciate less melodrama.
What they also need to do is avoid contradicting the tone / themes of a story (ME3) or not having one in the first place (DA2 and to a large extent, ME2).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 avril 2012 - 05:26 .

[Khayness]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

as well as the personal life experiences of the writers.

Well that's for sure, European fantasy is pretty different from the mainstream.

We have a Hungarian D&D like fantasy tabletop realm here, which has some pretty interesting and unique stuff compared to the good ole' western fantasy. When you can make a thousand year old enigmatic empire ruled by 13 demigod tyrants as reasonable and interesting as the typical good guy aristocracy (who are massive tw@ts and hypocrites), you are in for a treat. Shades of grey pretty much the way we roll.

Shame it was maintained by a collaboration of writers, and after the flagship titles expired, it pretty much fell apart.

Modifié par Khayness, 23 avril 2012 - 05:41 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Also, I'd appreciate less melodrama.

Yes I think this is a factor.  The romances have begun to consume so much of the focus, and they are mostly heavy on melodrama.  With fewer and fewer conversations happening, that is even more clear.  But, why are we talking about Bioware?

Yikes, the Siegfried bromance in this thread is heavy.  You guys should get a room. 

I am in act III of my TW1 replay.  Though the story is not as tightly focused and nuanced, there is so much I appreciate about 1.  I love all the environments.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 avril 2012 - 06:24 .

[Mr.House]

SO I just completed the secrets of Loc Muin, fantastic quest. Interesting revelation at the end, was able to kill that traitor() and that artifact was very interesting.

[AxisEvolve]

Mr.House wrote...

SO I just completed the secrets of Loc Muin, fantastic quest. Interesting revelation at the end, was able to kill that traitor() and that artifact was very interesting.

Which traitor? Cynthia? I hope not. 

Why kill when you can plough! There's so much more glory in that. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Yikes, the Siegfried bromance in this thread is heavy.  You guys should get a room. 

TW1's story is awesome. The way the Scoia'Tael / Order conflict builds up is really well done. 
And I like the contrast between Yaevinn and Iorveth. I like and sympathize with both, though obviously prefer the latter both in terms of personality, vision and actual character.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 avril 2012 - 06:58 .

[Mr.House]

AxisEvolve wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

SO I just completed the secrets of Loc Muin, fantastic quest. Interesting revelation at the end, was able to kill that traitor() and that artifact was very interesting.

Which traitor? Cynthia? I hope not. 

Why kill when you can plough! There's so much more glory in that. 

She deserves it, oh it felt good. She had it coming.

[Mr.House]

I killed Siegfried, he got in my way.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Oh lookie here.









Cynthia looks hot. Brigida was dissapointing. Kimbolt looks like a badass. And Maravel was cool.

[hangmans tree]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Geralts says Ves lied in regard to her telling Roche that Henselt just let her go.

So he let her go in exchange for her having sex with him? What was the mentality of having Henselt do that? He just came off as a dick who was doing it for the evil lulz and I always felt it was done as a reason to portray Henselt as  "evil", which frankly was a bit dissapoininting.

Thanks for the other answer.

No, I think he let her go to provoke Roche to do something stupid. Ves lied to Roche not to blind him by rage over the rape I guess. Or something similar.

Jan: have you no regrets as to not being part of TW3 in the future? I know there can be som kind of zmęczenie materiału working so long over one game... but wat was your motivation for leaving CDPR? Was it an easy/hard decision?

[Nordicus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Cynthia looks hot. Brigida was dissapointing. Kimbolt looks like a badass. And Maravel was cool.

I wish they'd done more with her, because I liked Brigida from the get-go because she simply hated Roche's guts and had the balls to tell it to his face.

Maravel on the other hand is a slimy mother****er. Even Dethmold doesn't shower you with so much praise and Kimbolt has a point when he says that Geralt is easily pribed with friendship and a few kind words. You pay close attention to Maravel's quarters and you'll see that he is spoiled from head to toe and does absolutely nothing to the common man. Just hoards all the wealth and luxury so far that he has Arachas on his silver dinner plate

[Sebby]

Addai67 wrote...
Yikes, the Siegfried bromance in this thread is heavy.  You guys should get a room. 

Siegfried is the best character in the series. He deserves all the praise.

Him not showing up in TW3 would ****** me off as much as what EAware did to TIM in ME3.

Modifié par Seboist, 23 avril 2012 - 07:59 .

[Sebby]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Oh lookie here.



Cynthia looks hot. Brigida was dissapointing. Kimbolt looks like a badass. And Maravel was cool.

Cynthia wallpaper! *hits set as desktop background* <3

RE: ME1, while it's better written and put together than the sequels I wouldn't say the writing is all that great tbh. It still revolves around the derp story of giant metal space bugs. The characterization is extremely lacking with Anderson and Udina not doing all that much and the Council being one dimensional "angry police chief" archetypes (don't even learn their names FFS). Then there all sorts of issues with the lore such as humanity becoming as strong as they are in such a short time(second only to the Turians it seems) and such head scratchers as the council races not having explored all the areas of the the citadel and not completely understanding it despite all those years of habitation(hard to believe Chorab and Jaleed are the only ones interested in researching the Keepers for instance).

TW1 > ME1 and DA:O

[Mr.House]

Omg that new outro...... GIVE ME TW3.

[Chromie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


It's really Bioware's recent trackrecord that pisses me off: and ToR. BS writing. 
  

Heh you have a TOR account?

Khayness wrote...

Omg, he slams Obsidian sequels and Jade Empire. /nerdrage

Didn't watch the video but what did they say about Obsidian? As much as I love CDProjekt I think Obsidian is on a whole different level.

Modifié par Skelter192, 23 avril 2012 - 09:08 .