13812 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Oh? When have the kings you speak of burned entire towns and villages to the ground and killed everyone in them just because of hatred in the Witcher world?

LOL Anytime they feel like it, for any reason they feel like.

Yet for the Scoia'Tel this goes all the way up their chain of command. Do you remember what Geralt can tell Alvin when he is asked about the Scoia'Tel? That the elves can't accept the world has changed and that they know they've lost and yet still fight on regardless of that?

I admire this.  The alternative is to akin to slavery.  It's not more admirable to bend under the yoke.  And according to what one poster is hinting from how the books go, their struggle is not useless.  Even if it ended up that way, there's no way to know you can't win unless you take up the sword.

[Costin_Razvan]

LOL Anytime they feel like it, for any reason they feel like.

Examples Addai, or you are talking out of your ass. That they can do it doesn't mean they have done it just because you dislike them.

The alternative is to akin to slavery. It's not more admirable to bend under the yoke.

Well excuse me if I don't find that crap particularly admirable, just like I wouldn't find have sympathy if the gypsies for instance did that. I don't care if the elves can win even, it still doesn't make them any less dumb.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 avril 2012 - 05:35 .

[Addai]

Henselt makes a sport of killing nonhumans and you're asking for examples? The kings routinely use them as scapegoats for domestic problems. Every time they proclaim one of their petty wars they condemn more people to die than Scoia'tael has killed. You see them as "rightful" so whatever they do is sanctioned. And I don't know why you're singling out elves when dwarves are part of the Scoia'tael, as well. Apparently not all of them are happy craftsmen.

BTW Raven's armor was made by gnomes, but finished by an elven craftsman.  I know, you don't care.

Highlight of my Witcher weekend: Fleecing Foltest at poker. He made a substantial contribution to the Witcher ho's and potion fund.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 avril 2012 - 07:49 .

[hangmans tree]

On the contrary, in the books many a times it is stated that the elvish rebellion was a mistake.Former andlater alike. It was what doomed elven kind.In the fight the "flower of ellven youth" perished. Leaving only the barren old generation unable to repopulate (reelvenate?).

I think it was on of the dwarves, Zigrin likely, who told that they have to live a way not to ask for forgiveness later. He said it's better to die than live with the knowledge that you did something that begs forgiveness. [Blood of Elves, around page 130]
And Elirena (Aelirenn, White Rose from Shaerrawedd) did beg for forgivenes.... after so many young elves died.... massacred in their last attempt... That is why Scoia'tael arestupid, they are ecited by third parties taking up banners and shouting slogans about freedom...

That is why I cannot, ever, support Scoia'tael. Sadly, caz I sympathize with a lot of them.

[hangmans tree]

Addai67 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Tell me Addai, do the dwarves have it any bit differently besides Mahakham and Vergen? They don't. They get threatened, harrassed, beaten, spat on, insulted etc. and yet they manage in the Outskirts, Vizima, Flotsam and even Henselt's camp.

The excuse you offer has no meaning when others who are in the exact same position can do handle it. The elves don't even ****ing care to try.

This goes to the question of whether you should accept indignity or fight against it.  Not even all dwarves agree on that topic.  And the persecution hits elves the hardest, probably because they are more powerful and more proud.  I don't see why elves should just take it without fighting back.

I would think you'd be more sympathetic to their rebellion considering they were allies with Nilfgaard.

Dwarves are practical people, elves are more blinded by their pride. Yarpen said it quite nicely why he's serving under Hansel - he cant let go to waste the 100 years of effort of living and cooperating alogside humans. World is what it is and the humans wont go away enytime soon, so the elder races have to find a way to live in peace with humans.

Besides humans have no equal in procreating and killing - a nice dissertation from a conversation on effect of sex on the development of society.

Modifié par hangmans tree, 29 avril 2012 - 10:35 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Henselt makes a sport of killing nonhumans and you're asking for examples?

Examples of where kings massacred people just because of hatred like the elves you support have done multiple times, perhaps you missed that last part but I'll repeat it. I am still waiting. I am singaling out elves because the are also quite a lot of dwarves who have no desire whatsoever to join the elves and who are quite productive to society.

Big surprise that Henselt and the other kings persecute nonhumans considering the crap they've done, and based on what I see and am told in-game I don't see Henselt doing anything worse then what Foltest does. Well excuse me if I don't support terrorism like you do. ( color it whatever you like. It is terrorism ). The difference between the kings you so despise and the Scoia'Tel is that what kings do at least in some way benefits their country, what the elves do doesn't benefit ANYONE.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 avril 2012 - 11:14 .

[Dreadstruck]

hangmans tree wrote...

On the contrary, in the books many a times it is stated that the elvish rebellion was a mistake.Former andlater alike. It was what doomed elven kind.In the fight the "flower of ellven youth" perished. Leaving only the barren old generation unable to repopulate (reelvenate?).

I think it was on of the dwarves, Zigrin likely, who told that they have to live a way not to ask for forgiveness later. He said it's better to die than live with the knowledge that you did something that begs forgiveness. [Blood of Elves, around page 130]
And Elirena (Aelirenn, White Rose from Shaerrawedd) did beg for forgivenes.... after so many young elves died.... massacred in their last attempt... That is why Scoia'tael arestupid, they are ecited by third parties taking up banners and shouting slogans about freedom...

That is why I cannot, ever, support Scoia'tael. Sadly, caz I sympathize with a lot of them.

Not to mention some of them are taking it too damn far. Elven deathsquads Vrihedd anyone?


Looks familiar, doesn't it?:innocent:

Modifié par Avalla'ch, 29 avril 2012 - 11:34 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Wait, they actually had death squads?

[Dreadstruck]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Wait, they actually had death squads?

Yes, at least that's how they were described in my translation. One led by Isengrim "Iron Wolf" Faoiltirarna who was no stranger to "interrogations" such as pouring syrup all over you and ramming your head into an ant nest.

Iorveth was also part of them.

Modifié par Avalla'ch, 29 avril 2012 - 12:23 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Was there any purpose to this or did they just do it for the lulz?

[Dreadstruck]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Was there any purpose to this or did they just do it for the lulz?

I reckon this particular scene was some kind of interrogation. Even though he mentioned it was not the first time he did that, even for the lulz.

Gotta read the books again to confirm that.

[Costin_Razvan]

Based on the wiki it is said Iorveth was not just part of the unit, but also an officer. Is that correct?

[Dreadstruck]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Based on the wiki it is said Iorveth was not just part of the unit, but also an officer. Is that correct?

Yep, Iorveth is only mentioned in the books as a guy "who's entire unit got massacred".
It's nice to see CD Projekt expanding these minor roles.

Modifié par Avalla'ch, 29 avril 2012 - 01:41 .

[KJandrew]

I'm really looking forwards to seeing Duny for some reason, kinda hoping for a chance to help him in 3

[Nerevar-as]

I think Iorveth and Isengrim (in the books only the latter) were the only ones who escaped when the officers were handed over to the North as part of the Peace of Cintra and were executed despite the pact promising to free them or not hard penalties (the officers guessed as much, but in exchange Nilfgaard refused to hand over the rest of the soldiers).

Isengrim decided to flee to the east and makes frineds with two other human exiles.

[Costin_Razvan]

So did the elves of the unit torture humans for the hell of it? Curios about it. Seriously the more I learn about the Scoia'Tel they become more and more as as complete ****s in my eyes.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 avril 2012 - 01:53 .

[Dreadstruck]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

So did the elves of the unit torture humans for the hell of it? Curios about it. Seriously the more I learn about the sons of ****es the less I think of them.

Don't quote me on that. Both sides commited atrocities, though the one I remember the most was when a band of elves (during Battle of Brenna) barged into a medical tent and started slaughtering everyone (even though the head medic was a halfling and he was treating even enemy soldiers).

Modifié par Avalla'ch, 29 avril 2012 - 02:03 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Wasn't that Yaevin? Oh I have no doubt that both sides comitted atrrocities. Yet when we talk about the Scoia'Tel we talk of them comitting attrocities on the highest level of command.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 avril 2012 - 01:56 .

[Dreadstruck]

Yeah, I meant the entire Scoia'Tael atrocities, not just Vrihedd.

I really don't know why, but it seems that Sapkowski wanted to portray Elves a bit... worse.
I mean, compared to Rayla's commandos (hunting Elves, hanging them on roads etc.), Scoia'Tael doesn't really seem to have any redeeming values.

For example Rayla tried to protect the civilians she was escorting, even stayed behind with the rest of her rag-tag unit to buy them time. After the Elves captured her, she got tortured, disfigured and got her left hand cut off.
But for some reason TW1 totally contradicts the book canon concerning her current "looks" *shrugs*

Modifié par Avalla'ch, 29 avril 2012 - 02:14 .

[Nerevar-as]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Wasn't that Yaevin? Oh I have no doubt that both sides comitted atrrocities. Yet when we talk about the Scoia'Tel we talk of them comitting attrocities on the highest level of command.

Yes, he was.

Think of everyone (human, elf, whatever) as a bastard, yet at the same time most are still people. Sapkoski seems to think almost everybody can commit atrocities. Unlike Pratchett (who makes the same point in a few of his books), he doesn´t let the reader forget it.

[Nerevar-as]

Avalla'ch wrote...

Yeah, I meant the entire Scoia'Tael atrocities, not just Vrihedd.

I really don't know why, but it seems that Sapkowski wanted to portray Elves a bit... worse.
I mean, compared to Rayla's commandos (hunting Elves, hanging them on roads etc.), they don't really seem to have any redeeming factors.

For example Rayla tried to protect the civilians she was escorting, even stayed behind with the rest of her rag-tag unit to buy them time. Aaaaand the Elves supposedly raped and disfigured her and cut her left hand off after capturing her afterwards. For some reason her TW1 looks totally contradict the book canon here.

I think Rayla still had the same backstory in TW1, but it´s been long since I played the game, and for some reason it won´t launch in my current computer. It felt good finishing her anyway. But elves are usually good among themselves, it´s other races they see below them (that is, any other race) that they are cruel towards if they have the chance.

[Dreadstruck]

Nerevar-as wrote...

But elves are usually good among themselves, it´s other races they see
below them (that is, any other race) that they are cruel towards if they
have the chance.

Yeah, I know.

It's just that to me it seems like Sapkowski wanted to portray most Scoia'Tael as gung-ho "RARGH KILL ALL HUMANS, PUSH THEM TO THE SEA, FREEDOM RARGH", with a very few exceptions like Toruviel.

Which I think, is the reason why most people can't really sympathize with 'em.

Modifié par Avalla'ch, 29 avril 2012 - 02:21 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Yaevinn was like that actually Avalla'ch and Rayla...well she tried to stop the Order knights from attacking the village in Murky Waters since that would have meant the children could have been killed.

With that in mind I can't say I blame anyone who wants to exterminate the Scoia'Tel and just before some blind idiot mentions it. I do not mean the entire elven species.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 avril 2012 - 02:35 .

[mupp3tz]

I recall reading an article about how the Witcher writers painted characters (and presumably fractions) just as they were. Similar to the real world, not every person or group is inherently good or reasonable. When your entire community has practically been all but decimated, fighting back isn't always motivated by honorable intentions. Sometimes your vision just gets clouded by revenge and bloodlust. You lose sight of everything but the eye for an eye mentality and cooperation just becomes moot for you, because you have too much anger and pride. That's how I view to Scoia-tael. It's pitiful to kill them or watch them have their entire society revolve around revenge, but it's also stupid to just stand by idly and let them massacre everything else.

[Naughty Bear]

I am really starting to like Iorveth, joined him instead of Roche. If what he says is true about Foltest.