13812 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Saskia was naive, but she was also a wild card, see her attempt to murder Foltest which was not the Lodge's plans. Philippa's plan would make Saskia a far better tool.

Wwwhat?  Did I miss something?  What did Saskia have to do with Foltest's murder?

There is no damning evidence against Philippa, but she is the main benefactor, is smart enough to pull it off and she consistently lied to Geralt and manipulated him before (about Triss and the rose). Such a thing is not beyond her at all, quite the contrary.

She had Triss and the rose before the poisoning happened. It makes sense for her to be behind it (via the priest).

That's speculation, too, since Triss says it was Cynthia who spelled her.  Though the fact that the figurine is sitting on Philippa's desk is pretty good evidence that she was in on neutralizing Triss, at least after the fact.

[Seboist]

He's referring to her trying to kill Foltest as he and Geralt were running towards the monastery.

[Costin_Razvan]

She did not have Triss and the rose. It was Cynthia who captured Triss and turned her into a statue.

Shilard's mage could detect that Geralt had the figurine on him when he entered the Nilfgaardian Camp near Henselt's, you think Phillipa didn't sense Triss?! Even Geralt can sense magic in the figurine if he walks in the house.

I don't think Philippa would have risked the death of Vergen's savior by resorting to such a ridiculously powerful toxin. At the time she had no idea Saskia was a dragon.

She didn't risk anything. She knew Saskia was a dragon and thus would survive the poison until she could get an antidote, and based on what exactly do you think she did not know Saskia was a dragon?

Also more importantly she did took control of Saskia even Roche's path, even with Stennis dead.

Wwwhat? Did I miss something? What did Saskia have to do with Foltest's murder?

You forgot that big massive dragon who was trying to kill Foltest in the prologue? Hell even Saskia states she wanted to do it and when Geralt asks why it's because she was helping Aryan fight against tyranny.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You forgot that big massive dragon who was trying to kill Foltest in the prologue? Hell even Saskia states she wanted to do it and when Geralt asks why it's because she was helping Aryan fight against tyranny.

I was thinking of the assassination, of course.  You can't say she was targeting Foltest- it would have been luck to even find the king on the battlefield.  She doesn't mention Foltest at all, she says she was helping the La Valettes.

[Costin_Razvan]

She tries to murder Foltest when they cross to the Monastery Solar and I'm inclined to believe Iorveth told Saskia of what he was planning with Letho.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 21 mai 2012 - 02:43 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Saskia was targeting Foltest. She even said that Aryan was fighting against tyranny, aka Foltest. She is not stupid, she was following Foltest trying to kill him. Of course Philippa is not going to want someone like Saskia do whatever she wants.

And I am inclined to believe that it was Philippa that ordered Cynthia to do it (of course Cynthia had other plans), because Sile too wanted to neutralize Triss though kill her. It seems both Sile and Philippa wanted Triss out of the way.

[Seboist]

Killing her for her attempt on Foltest in Roche path is another great reason for a pro-Temeria Geralt. I actually didn't think about that when I killed her in my first run, I did it due to her being a living weapon of the sorceresses'.

[mupp3tz]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

She did not have Triss and the rose. It was Cynthia who captured Triss and turned her into a statue.

Shilard's mage could detect that Geralt had the figurine on him when he entered the Nilfgaardian Camp near Henselt's, you think Phillipa didn't sense Triss?! Even Geralt can sense magic in the figurine if he walks in the house.

Wasn't her excuse something like the mist was interfering with her ability to accurately say whether or not Triss was in the near environment? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

Wasn't her excuse something like the mist was interfering with her ability to accurately say whether or not Triss was in the near environment? 

And you believe her?
The statuette was right next to her. Even Geralt's medallion vibrates next to it.

She said that to make Geralt believe that Triss is somewhere near the mist, if not on the other side, rather than just in front of him. Philippa was evidently lying. She's a first class liar in fact, as even till the end, I am not sure Geralt realizes to what extent she was manipulating him.

Besides, Vanhemmar could still sense the statuette when the mist was still there.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 mai 2012 - 03:24 .

[mupp3tz]

I don't know. I still think that the plot was entirely the priest and Stennis turning a blind eye on it and allowing it to take place.

But, I'll definitely agree with you that Philippa is a first class liar. The entire Lodge is a tricky bunch!

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Saskia was targeting Foltest. She even said that Aryan was fighting against tyranny, aka Foltest. She is not stupid, she was following Foltest trying to kill him. Of course Philippa is not going to want someone like Saskia do whatever she wants.

There's no way you can say that for sure.  She never says she wanted Foltest dead.  She let Henselt leave alive.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Saskia was targeting Foltest. She even said that Aryan was fighting against tyranny, aka Foltest. She is not stupid, she was following Foltest trying to kill him. Of course Philippa is not going to want someone like Saskia do whatever she wants.

There's no way you can say that for sure.  She never says she wanted Foltest dead.  She let Henselt leave alive.

Yea, of course. The Dragon who was breathing fire on Foltest and deliberately pursuing him if it wasn't for Geralt putting a sword in her mouth, had no intention of killing him.

Please.

Saskia left Henselt alive because Philippa was controlling her at the time.

[Addai]

Is the sarcasm really necessary?

You can't know for sure- that's all I'm saying. She was attacking Foltest's troops in order to change the outcome of the battle. We don't know that she even recognized the king.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Is the sarcasm really necessary?

You can't know for sure- that's all I'm saying. She was attacking Foltest's troops in order to change the outcome of the battle. We don't know that she even recognized the king.

I'd think Foltest's outfit makes him stand out.
She was clearly trying to kill him, assisting Aryan in his fight against tyranny as she said.

Now you are just making Saskia sound like a complete and utter idiot.

[Costin_Razvan]

Clearly Saskia who even dreamed of killing Foltest wasn't looking to kill him there. Seriously Addai stop denying facts, she very likely would have killed Henselt if not for Phillipa.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 21 mai 2012 - 04:00 .

[Addai]

I'm not denying facts- I'm denying "facts" that don't really exist except in your interpretation. Philippa claims that Saskia was unchanged, and that includes her honor.

[Costin_Razvan]

Saskia's honor is non-existent. She tried to murder Foltest and lied from the very beginning about being a dragonslayer.

As for my interpretation, that might do with Henselt, but it has nothing to do with Foltest, or what are you going to claim she wasn't targeting him when she went after him TWICE ( the holdings and the bridge to the solar ).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

I'm not denying facts- I'm denying "facts" that don't really exist except in your interpretation. Philippa claims that Saskia was unchanged, and that includes her honor.

I don't see what's dishonorable about killing Foltest. She was, in her reckless and unpolitical mind, thinking that she was gaining an ally and killing a tyrant.

So either she was targetting him, or she's a complete idiot. Which do you prefer?

[horacethegrey]

The whole thing about Philippa transforming Triss into a statue makes no sense. Why would she send Geralt through the mist to rescue Triss? Remember that all Philippa is concerned about is the Rose of Remembrance Triss is carrying, as she needs it to charm Saskia. If she had Triss and the rose in the first place, wouldn't she have cured Saskia right away once Geralt gathered all the ingridients? Sending Geralt to find Triss in Henselt's camp seems too much of a stretch to play an elaborate ruse. Geralt could have been killed in the mist or captured by Henselt's soldiers, and Philippa needed his help to end Sabrina Glevessig's blood curse.

Modifié par horacethegrey, 21 mai 2012 - 04:27 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

horacethegrey wrote...

The whole thing about Philippa transforming Triss into a statue makes no sense. Why would she send Geralt through the mist to rescue Triss? Remember that all Philippa is concerned about is the Rose of Remembrance Triss is carrying, as she needs it to charm Saskia. If she had Triss and the rose in the first place, wouldn't she have cured Saskia right away once Geralt gathered all the ingridients? Sending Geralt to find Triss in Henselt's camp seems too much of a stretch to play an elaborate delusion. Geralt could have been killed in the mist or captured by Henselt's soldiers, and Philippa needed his help to end Sabrina Glevessig's blood curse.

Philippa needed Geralt to cross the mist anyways to collect items for lifting the mist, in fact she assists him in that (plus Royal Blood if Stennis is alive). Philippa either had no idea that Triss was out of her grasp at the time (due to Cynthia). Or found out and feared what she might do if freed. She doesn't just need the rose. She needs Triss neutralized. Indeed, Triss is the evidence Shilard and Radovid used to bring down the lodge and potentially, all mages.

Triss was on her desk, to believe that Philippa had no idea is just foolish. To tell me that she fails to detect her when a Nildgaardian mage and a Witcher medallion can is not plausible. 

As for not curing Saskia immediately. It's probably due to her needing time to master the curse and create the antidote (dagger).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 mai 2012 - 04:35 .

[horacethegrey]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Philippa needed Geralt to cross the mist anyways to collect items for lifting the mist, in fact she assists him in that (plus Royal Blood if Stennis is alive). Philippa either had no idea that Triss was out of her grasp at the time (due to Cynthia). Or found out and feared what she might do if freed. She doens't just need the rose. She needs Triss neutraqlized. Indeed, Triss falling in Nilfgaardian hands is the evidence Shilard and Radovid used to bring down the lodge and potentially, all mages.

Triss was on her desk, to believe that Philippa had no idea is just foolish. To tell me that she fails to detect her when a nildgaardian mage can is not plausible. 

What items? The only things she sent through Geralt through the mist for was Triss and the rose. 

As for not detecting Triss, didn't she say she needed Triss' bandanna to locate her? The nilfgardian mage probably detected the statue because it was encased in some kind of doll, which I'm betting Cynthia fitted with some kind of magic beacon so he could find it. 

Modifié par horacethegrey, 21 mai 2012 - 04:48 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

horacethegrey wrote...
What items? The only things she sent through Geralt through the mist for wasTriss and the rose. 

As for not detecting Triss, didn't she say she needed Triss' bandanna to locate her? The nilfgardian mage probably detected the statue because it was encased in some kind of doll, which I'm betting Cynthia fitted with some kind of magic beacon so he could find it. 

The symbols of faith (Henselt's medallion) and courage (Selkirk's armor). Philippa gets them after crossing the mist. And as I said, her sending Geralt to find Triss does not at all mean that she wasn't behind it. It means she realized that Triss slipped off her grasp, not knowing that it was Cynthia. And the Rose was already there, Philippa says that Cynthia supposedly left it in her house, which is another lie, she had it the whole time.

She was evidently lying, to keep Geralt off her back.
The doll was on Philippa's desk, with the statuette inside it. If Geralt's medallion detected it, then there is no way one of the most powerful sorceresses in the Continent couldn't.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 mai 2012 - 04:51 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't see what's dishonorable about killing Foltest. She was, in her reckless and unpolitical mind, thinking that she was gaining an ally and killing a tyrant.

So either she was targetting him, or she's a complete idiot. Which do you prefer?

Neither.  She wanted to change the outcome of the battle, that's all.  She didn't intervene at all until it looked like the La Valettes were losing.

I admit she may have been trying to target Foltest- but not that she set out to kill him, and repeat that you can't know for sure that that's what she was doing.  You can interpret her dreaming about it as guilt.  When she's dreaming, she isn't breathing fire, she just sees the approach.

@ Costin:  Lying about being a dragon isn't dishonorable if it's done with good intent in mind.

I have no idea where you both got this idea of Saskia as being so bloodthirsty.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 mai 2012 - 04:58 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The doll was on Philippa's desk, with the statuette inside it. If Geralt's medallion detected it, then there is no way one of the most powerful sorceresses in the Continent couldn't.

I think you're probably right here, but it's possible to recognize it's magic without recognizing that it's Triss.  If Cynthia didn't want Philippa to know what she was doing, she could very well have masked Triss' identity somehow.  Philippa says that something is blocking her and that she only knows that Triss is near.

But I do think the fact that it's on Philippa's desk points to her being in on it.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 mai 2012 - 05:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Neither.  She wanted to change the outcome of the battle, that's all.  She didn't intervene at all until it looked like the La Valettes were losing.

I admit she may have been trying to target Foltest- but not that she set out to kill him, and repeat that you can't know for sure that that's what she was doing. 

She was breathing fire at Foltest for God's sake! And following Geralt and him trying to kill them if it weren't for Geralt. Of course she was trying to kill him. Yes we know what she was doing and what you are trying to do here is just silly.
There is no bloodlust, it's just recklessness and foolish idealism.

Addai67 wrote...
I think you're
probably right here, but it's possible to recognize it's magic without
recognizing that it's Triss.  If Cynthia didn't want Philippa to know
what she was doing, she could very well have masked Triss' identity
somehow.  Philippa says that something is blocking her and that she only
knows that Triss is near.

Then how did Vanhemmar manage to find out?

I can believe Philippa being outwitted, which happened. But to be outplayed when it comes to magic? By an apprentice? Not likely.