120 réponses à ce sujet

[Saibh]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well it depends. I picked Ashley even though Liara is always my LI. I don't even like Ashley much, not to mention better than Kaidan. That why I ask the question this way, I believe a gentlement is always supposed to save the lady. For once, your brother would have live on in the knowledge that a lady died for him. Which is a bit awkward for him and me as well. Men live and die for women. That's maybe a bit conservative thinking, especially in a game like DA where men are not really stronger or more powerful in battle than women, but well, it's the way I think.

As I said, this is assuming you're in a relationship with Ashley and have no pressing reason to pick Kaidan (like being better for your squad or something pragmatic).

I think that this is false chivalry. As I said: You are essentially killing your brother for being related to you. Because it would be "wrong" to pick someone important to you over a stranger. Think about your brother as a person, and not a tool. You are killing him for your noble reason, so you can feel better about it on a moral highground. I mean, what's the real difference if you were forced to choose between your sister and a lady? There shouldn't be any.

This is disregarding if it ends up that Carver is a right little dweeb or if he's asking you to sacrifice him instead.

Modifié par Saibh, 10 novembre 2010 - 06:24 .

[upsettingshorts]

Saibh wrote...

It's like the Kaidan/Ashley choice where people said you'd be wrong to pick your love interest. So long as there's no pressing reason to pick Kaidan over Ashley (assuming you're male), why should you pick Kaidan? Essentially you're killing someone for being in a relationship with you.

OT: Well the "proper" - if it could be called that - answer to that one is to send one with the Salarians for a reason not related to their relationship to you (eg. "It is the combat team, so send Ashley") and choose to save one of them based on the tactical situation (eg. "I need to secure the nuke, so I'll reinforce Kaidan's position.").  

So, given a choice between Carver and Bethany, I couldn't apply the same kind of in-character logic to a choice (assuming we get one) because I don't know what the situation will be yet.  If it is a choice, I'll go with some kind of reasoning that won't be based on "who do I want for the rest of the game" but "what makes more sense in the immediate situation" - if that makes sense.

In subsequent games I'll metagame my butt off.  My first game is always full of un-optimal "mistakes."  That's part of the fun.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 10 novembre 2010 - 06:25 .

[Maria Caliban]

I saved Kaiden because he was of a higher rank.

[AlexXIV]

Saibh wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well it depends. I picked Ashley even though Liara is always my LI. I don't even like Ashley much, not to mention better than Kaidan. That why I ask the question this way, I believe a gentlement is always supposed to save the lady. For once, your brother would have live on in the knowledge that a lady died for him. Which is a bit awkward for him and me as well. Men live and die for women. That's maybe a bit conservative thinking, especially in a game like DA where men are not really stronger or more powerful in battle than women, but well, it's the way I think.

As I said, this is assuming you're in a relationship with Ashley and have no pressing reason to pick Kaidan (like being better for your squad or something pragmatic).

I think that this is false chivalry. As I said: You are essentially killing your brother for being related to you. Because it would be "wrong" to pick someone important to you over a stranger. Think about your brother as a person, and not a tool. You are killing him for your noble reason, so you can feel better about it on a moral highground. I mean, what's the real difference if you were forced to choose between your sister and a lady? There shouldn't be any.

This is disregarding if it ends up that Carver is a right little dweeb or if he's asking you to sacrifice him instead.

Well I think about him being a man. Just like Kaiden. I think of making the decision as he would like me to make it. Emotions have nothing to do with it, so it doesn't matter what kind of relation I have to anyone. It is a code one must follow, well, if it is a code you live by to begin with. Importance of the people could matter when one of them is essential for example survival of many others. If for example one was a healer or could cure many people or whatever.

[Saibh]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

OT: Well the "proper" - if it could be called that - answer to that one is to send one with the Salarians for a reason not related to their relationship to you (eg. "It is the combat team, so send Ashley") and choose to save one of them based on the tactical situation (eg. "I need to secure the nuke, so I'll reinforce Kaidan's position.").  

So, given a choice between Carver and Bethany, I couldn't apply the same kind of in-character logic to a choice (assuming we get one) because I don't know what the situation will be yet.  If it is a choice, I'll go with some kind of reasoning that won't be based on "who do I want for the rest of the game" but "what makes more sense in the immediate situation" - if that makes sense.

In subsequent games I'll metagame my butt off.  My first game is always full of un-optimal "mistakes."  That's part of the fun.

I was using the scenario to bring up the sort of twisted logic that people use to argue that you should always sacrifice the love interest in this situation, even if there's no particular reason to do so, no matter who's guarding the nuke. I wasn't calling the situation analogous, but rather some of the reasoning.

Besides, I'm talking about Carver vs. some random chick you've never met.

Modifié par Saibh, 10 novembre 2010 - 06:29 .

[AlexXIV]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I saved Kaiden because he was of a higher rank.

I did also in my female playthrough. I think the difference for me is if the one who makes the decision is male or female. The male would save the female, the female would save the male, or something ...

Modifié par AlexXIV, 10 novembre 2010 - 06:31 .

[Saibh]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I think about him being a man. Just like Kaiden. I think of making the decision as he would like me to make it. Emotions have nothing to do with it, so it doesn't matter what kind of relation I have to anyone. It is a code one must follow, well, if it is a code you live by to begin with. Importance of the people could matter when one of them is essential for example survival of many others. If for example one was a healer or could cure many people or whatever.

I suppose it's a fundamental disagreement then:

I don't really think men are women's universal protectors and that women must always be protected first by men in any given situation. If I were a man, I certainly wouldn't want to have to kill my brother to save some random lady on the street. How is his life less important?

Modifié par Saibh, 10 novembre 2010 - 06:31 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

I think Carver would feel grateful instead of awkward in that particular case, but I can relate to Alex's position to some extent. Romantic tradition usually calls for male sacrifice (and I use the word "romantic" in its actual sense and not related to love). If it's the sister vs. a gentleman instead, it's the gentleman who is sacrificed. In this case the sister isn't being punished for being the sister. It's the same romantic tradition.

But then there are people who punish their close ones in a misguided sense of fairness. I remember a cavalry colonel in Lucky Luke who gave his son hell in order to avoid favoritism.

[AlexXIV]

Saibh wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I think about him being a man. Just like Kaiden. I think of making the decision as he would like me to make it. Emotions have nothing to do with it, so it doesn't matter what kind of relation I have to anyone. It is a code one must follow, well, if it is a code you live by to begin with. Importance of the people could matter when one of them is essential for example survival of many others. If for example one was a healer or could cure many people or whatever.

I suppose it's a fundamental disagreement then:

I don't really think men are women's universal protectors and that women must always be protected first by men in any given situation. If I were a man, I certainly wouldn't want to have to kill my brother to save some random lady on the street. How is his life less important?

His life is not less important. It is more about his role. A bit like Sten logic. If you have a role in life you follow it, no matter the costs. Would I act like that in real life? Maybe not, probably not (thankfully I'd only have a sister in that case). But there is what I think would be the proper thing to do for a gentleman.

[Leonia]

If that is the choice we have to make, my LadyHawke is so saving her brother over some stranger. If I ever play ManHawke, he'll do the same.

Modifié par leonia42, 10 novembre 2010 - 06:36 .

[Shepard Lives]

leonia42 wrote...

Rocket launchers would imply she's a bounty hunter, probably Mandalorian.

Oh Mira Beth isn't romanceable either. I'm starting to see the parallels.

[Saibh]

AlexXIV wrote...

His life is not less important. It is more about his role. A bit like Sten logic. If you have a role in life you follow it, no matter the costs. Would I act like that in real life? Maybe not, probably not (thankfully I'd only have a sister in that case). But there is what I think would be the proper thing to do for a gentleman.

Kill your brother so some random lady can live out of a misguided sense of personal honor? I don't think that makes him a gentleman. Sacrificing a man because he's a man and saving a woman because she's a woman. If the woman is a doctor, sure. If the woman is pregnant, obviously.

But simply because she's a woman?

Why should men be punished to fulfill certain duties women are never perscribed to? It's unfair, and I don't think remotely chivalrous.

Anyhow...we're off-topic, I think.

Modifié par Saibh, 10 novembre 2010 - 06:37 .

[Maria Caliban]

Saibh wrote...

Besides, I'm talking about Carver vs. some random chick you've never met.

Hawke has never met Bethany?

[Leonia]

shepard_lives wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Rocket launchers would imply she's a bounty hunter, probably Mandalorian.

Oh Mira Beth isn't romanceable either. I'm starting to see the parallels.

*sigh* Mira..she was so pretty and deadly and.. I miss her.

[AlexXIV]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

I think Carver would feel grateful instead of awkward in that particular case, but I can relate to Alex's position to some extent. Romantic tradition usually calls for male sacrifice (and I use the word "romantic" in its actual sense and not related to love). If it's the sister vs. a gentleman instead, it's the gentleman who is sacrificed. In this case the sister isn't being punished for being the sister. It's the same romantic tradition.
But then there are people who punish their close ones in a misguided sense of fairness. I remember a cavalry colonel in Lucky Luke who gave his son hell in order to avoid favoritism.

No I don't punish close ones. I didn't mean that.

[upsettingshorts]

I'd save my brother over an anonymous pregnant woman. Tragic, but he's my brother. People I don't know - including women and children - die all the time. Still tragic, still not my brother.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Hawke has never met Bethany?

Yeah, I think I need to scroll back and see how it got to this.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 10 novembre 2010 - 06:38 .

[Saibh]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Besides, I'm talking about Carver vs. some random chick you've never met.

Hawke has never met Bethany?

No, in hypothetical terms, Alex asked "Carver vs a lady". Not Carver vs Aveline or Carver vs Bethany or something.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'd save my brother over an anonymous pregnant woman. Tragic, but he's my brother. People I don't know die all the time. Still tragic, still not my brother.

I wasn't particularly referring to Carver in that instance--just "a man" and "a woman". In the instance this was my brother...I'm not so sure. I think I'd end up picking my brother, but I'd feel intensely guilty about it--more than I ever would have if it were a random chick.

Modifié par Saibh, 10 novembre 2010 - 06:39 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

AlexXIV wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

I think Carver would feel grateful instead of awkward in that particular case, but I can relate to Alex's position to some extent. Romantic tradition usually calls for male sacrifice (and I use the word "romantic" in its actual sense and not related to love). If it's the sister vs. a gentleman instead, it's the gentleman who is sacrificed. In this case the sister isn't being punished for being the sister. It's the same romantic tradition.
But then there are people who punish their close ones in a misguided sense of fairness. I remember a cavalry colonel in Lucky Luke who gave his son hell in order to avoid favoritism.

No I don't punish close ones. I didn't mean that.

I get it. You've been trying to explain that this whole time anyway.

[upsettingshorts]

In general though - relations aside - I'm attempting to save whichever one I think has a better chance of living/I have a better chance at rescuing. That's sort of on topic because in any Bethany or Carver situation, that's probably going to be my initial reasoning.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

In general though - relations aside - I'm attempting to save whichever one I think has a better chance of living/I have a better chance at rescuing. That's sort of on topic because in any Bethany or Carver situation, that's probably going to be my initial reasoning.

Del Spooner hates you.

[Shepard Lives]

leonia42 wrote...

shepard_lives wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Rocket launchers would imply she's a bounty hunter, probably Mandalorian.

Oh Mira Beth isn't romanceable either. I'm starting to see the parallels.

*sigh* Mira..she was so pretty and deadly and.. I miss her.

Me too. I want a spunky, redheaded, beautiful bounty hunter in my DA2.

[upsettingshorts]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Del Spooner hates you.

I hate his crappy movie.  Still, my thought process in that post was rather cold and robotic, and as a human I'm not sure if I'd be able to overrule my emotional reaction at the scene with my predetermined "plan" is it could be called that.  Maybe if the less-likely-to-live option was a child and the other was a grown man, I'd overrule that logic.  Spooner's robot isn't capable.  I'd have to weigh the logic against the emotional weight of the decision, and fast.  I'm not sure what I'd do in the real world, so good post lol.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 10 novembre 2010 - 06:47 .

[AlexXIV]

shepard_lives wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

shepard_lives wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Rocket launchers would imply she's a bounty hunter, probably Mandalorian.

Oh Mira Beth isn't romanceable either. I'm starting to see the parallels.

*sigh* Mira..she was so pretty and deadly and.. I miss her.

Me too. I want a spunky, redheaded, beautiful bounty hunter in my DA2.

Well I never understood why she wasn't romanceable. Well obviously my exile was too old for her. On the other hand the canon exile is female anyway ...

[cesia256]

In response to the OP, I agree that the most likely scenario for Carver/Bethany survival is that it depends on Hawke's class, especially based on general feedback from demos where the mage wasn't playable. (I'm not entirely convinced that the bloke in the shot of Carver and Bethany in Kirkwall(?) is actually Carver. Are there any definitive images of his face?)

I'd also suggest that they've advertised Beth over Carver largely because she's prettier and odds are most people won't play a mage first time through. (I'm guessing here of course, but out of three classes it seems likely that more than half the players will pick a warrior/rogue for their first playthough.)

[Saibh]

Hm...updated the OP with the new news from Gashington.