248 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

It's odd to me this preview didn't get more replies.

[Saibh]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's odd to me this preview didn't get more replies.

Because it's positive.

[Apollo Starflare]

Saibh wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's odd to me this preview didn't get more replies.

Because it's positive.

Sad but true... Which is a shame as this is a fantastic preview.

[Shepard Lives]

Saibh wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's odd to me this preview didn't get more replies.

Because it's positive.

This.
We should ask Gashington to change the title to something like "I played DA2... goodbye Bioware" or "DA2: not a spiritual successor" or something equally pompous and negative, so that all the doomsayers will come in here, read the review, and proceed to eat a crow.

Modifié par shepard_lives, 11 novembre 2010 - 04:20 .

[nightcobra]

"One nice feature I noticed was that

whenever you selected an AoE (area of effect, think EXPLOSIONS!) spell or

ability (like fireball or inferno) the game automatically paused and gave you

the zoomed-out top-view and the targeting circle for the spell."



i like this, it's a great improvement over origins in this regard.

i don't like isometric view all that much but i appreciate it on moments like this.

[bsbcaer]

Gashington wrote... 

One nice feature I noticed was that
whenever you selected an AoE (area of effect, think EXPLOSIONS!) spell or
ability (like fireball or inferno) the game automatically paused and gave you
the zoomed-out top-view and the targeting circle for the spell. 

I know that you mentioned that you only played DA:O on PC and not on 360, but just wanted to let you know that this feature was the exact same as it was on the 360 version of the original game

[Seagloom]

shepard_lives wrote...

This.
We should ask Gashington to change the title to something like "I played DA2... goodbye Bioware" or "DA2: not a spiritual successor" or something equally pompous and negative, so that all the doomsayers will come in here, read the review, and proceed to eat a crow.

Yes. Because *that* would be mature. <_< Honestly, why take unsolicited potshots at people? It is not as if anyone came in here ranting against DA2. Comments like that do nothing positive for the community.

On topic, I like what they did with Inferno. Hopefully it has more punch than Origins inferno did. Something about sending down meteors on a crowd is cool. What intrigues me more is this Aveline/Carver thing. If I am forced to choose between my character's brother and a templar that will probably hate her guts for being an apostate mage, then Aveline is toast. I am not too crazy about her bland shirt and trousers design either. To be fair Carver's looks are fairly generic too, but at least he is family. On a gamist level that may hurt though since Aveline is a tank and Carver prefers two-handed weapons.

So assuming Carver can be saved at all there are, what, three ongoing theories? Carver vs momma Hawke, Carver vs Bethany, or Carver vs Aveline. Ouch. I hope for his sake it is between him or Aveline because otherwise I will get stuck with an annoying templar companion.

Edit: Oops, I had no idea Aveline is not a templar like her husband. Still, I cannot see myself choosing her over Carver.

Modifié par Seagloom, 11 novembre 2010 - 05:48 .

[MerinTB]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Gashington wrote...
I do remember combat felt like it had a certain pace and flow which Origins sadly lacked, making it a lot more interesting and in a way more strategic. I have a feeling the harder fights on a difficulty where you can actually die will be quite hectic and require your fullest attention and careful planning.

Have fun with that one, folks.  Thanks for the review of the preview!

I will.  It's easy.

He misused the word "strategic" when he clearly meant "tactical."

I'd argue whether a faster "pace" or the "flow" of combat has anything to do with tactics, either, but that's not what I'll have fun with.

Strategy is big picture planning.  Tactics is down in the dirt.  You can't plan strategy while actually in combat - you can adjust your tactics.

http://www.alanemric...GD_Strategy.htm
Military minds often think in terms of strategy and tactics.
Strategy is immutable; it is a Big Picture look at a problem that
focuses upon the entire forest and not individual trees. Military concepts such
as objective, offensive, simplicity, unity of command, mass, economy of force,
maneuver, surprise, and security represent the timeless principles of strategy.
Why do you think Sun Tzu’s The Art of War has been a best seller for
thousands of years and translated into every imaginable language? Because it
teaches strategy and the lessons of strategy are timeless. They are bound
to our very nature as humans.
Tactics vary with circumstances and, especially, technology. If I were
to teach you how to be a soldier during the American Revolution, you would learn
how to form and maneuver in lines, perform the 27 steps in loading and firing a
musket, and how to ride and tend to a horse. Naturally, yesterday’s tactics
won’t win today’s wars – but yesterday’s strategies still win today’s
wars… and will win them tomorrow and into the future.
So, tactics present a Small Picture perspective where individual trees are in
focus but the Big Picture of the forest is not. Just as your eyes have to look
up from this page to refocus on the larger room you’re reading it in, so
strategy and tactics require a different focus.

So, you'll have to forgive me if I'm not impressed by someone who doesn't even understand the difference between the two.

When some PC gamers (like me) are worried about tactical camera, is about the combat and how you can plan and react to it.

When ANYONE worries about the strategies one can use successfully in DA2, they are thinking over the whole game.

Now it's possible that the OP did mean that with the new pace and flow of combat people will have to adjust their overall strategy based on the "made better for console controllers" combat, and that's probably true.

But I doubt, overall, that this isn't something that many who are unhappy with the direction DA2 is taking wouldn't have predicted or expected (or been worried about) anyway.

---

That fun enough for you?

[nightcobra]

i have to say....really?! your response is to base an argument of how he used the word strategy instead of tactics on a context that doesn't sit right with you?

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 11 novembre 2010 - 05:32 .

[Seagloom]

I hate to say it, Merin, but that post is very pedantic. I think we can infer that the OP meant tactics when referring to combat. She/He also attended that show in Sweden which raises the probability that English is not his/her first language exponentially. Considering how many Americans are likely to confuse strategy with tactics, I think a European who likely has another first language earns some slack.

[MerinTB]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

i have to say....really?! your response is to base an argument of how he used the word strategy instead of tactics on a context that doesn't sit right with you?

No, my response is Upsettingshorts highlighted that part of his post and asked people to have fun with it.

So I did.

Also - Upsettingshorts (and several others on here) seem to be indicating that "naysayers", or whatever you want to call people who have voiced unease or dislike of what has been revealed about DA2, would suddenly be disarmed or taken aback that someone played the demo and said "this plays better than DA:O did" (praraphrasing there) or, more importantly based on the emphasis Upsettingshorts used and others who said words to the effect of eating crow (or hat, or whatever it was) seem, to me, to be focusing on "more strategic" in the OP's review.

That's all.

Seagloom wrote...
I hate to say it, Merin, but that post
is very pedantic. I think we can infer that the OP meant tactics when
referring to combat. She/He also attended that show in Sweden which
raises the probability that English is not his/her first language
exponentially. Considering how many Americans are likely to confuse
strategy with tactics, I think a European who likely has another first
language earns some slack.

Again, look at whom I was quoting and responding to.

To be fair, this line of mine -
"So, you'll have to forgive me if I'm not impressed by someone who doesn't even understand the difference between the two."
- probably unfairly targets the OP, and for that I do apologize to him/her.  Sorry - it wasn't meant as an attack on you. 
Just part of an ongoing back-and-forth between the BDF and the FR (I'll toss that one out there for people like CoS Sarah Jinstar and me - the Futile Resistance!)

Modifié par MerinTB, 11 novembre 2010 - 05:49 .

[upsettingshorts]

MerinTB wrote...
Also - Upsettingshorts (and several others on here) seem to be indicating that "naysayers", or whatever you want to call people who have voiced unease or dislike of what has been revealed about DA2, would suddenly be disarmed or taken aback that someone played the demo and said "this plays better than DA:O did" (praraphrasing there) or, more importantly based on the emphasis Upsettingshorts used and others who said words to the effect of eating crow (or hat, or whatever it was) seem, to me, to be focusing on "more strategic" in the OP's review.

Actually all I was getting at with that comment was - and this wasn't made clear because I was clearly baiting people as you noticed - that tactical (I understand the difference, one of my favorite game series is based on the actual distinction in fact) gameplay that is often claimed to have been removed from the game doesn't appear to be based on the substance of OP's comments.  I wasn't going to point out his misuse of the term strategic because I didn't want to muddle the issue.  

The intent wasn't so much to call out doubters to eat their hat, as it were, but to encourage them to explain - if they could - how their fears over the precise nature of the camera in DA:2 could still hold water, or if in fact the entire basis of their objections are entirely based on some odd devotion to a specific and limited angle (the isometric view) and possibly comment on whether or not they still believe that pause-and-play gameplay (either literally or the need for it) is being phased out of the game.

No one has actually taken me up on this, as the so-called "usual suspects" haven't even come into this thread.  Which is a shame, because my pointing that out was meant to be a rhetorical device aimed at guiding the rest of the discussion around OP's post, as opposed to anything else contained within it.  Obviously, it has mixed results.  And yeah, I'm fully aware that intentionally trying to divert the path of a thread topic in such a manner is only a distant cousin of trolling, heh.

MerinTB wrote...
 (I'll toss that one out there for people like CoS Sarah Jinstar and me - the Futile Resistance!)

I don't lump you in with CoS Sarah Jinstar, and you shouldn't do yourself the disservice of doing that either.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 novembre 2010 - 05:58 .

[VoLLonDOR]

Есть тут кто Русский?? =)

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Waaaaaant. Waaaaaant. Nowwwwwwwwww.



/flops around on the floor moaning.



I'm glad the combat will be tighter and seemingly quicker. Cannot wait. :-)

[MerinTB]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Actually all I was getting at with that comment was - and this wasn't made clear because I was clearly baiting people as you noticed - that tactical (I understand the difference, one of my favorite game series is based on the actual distinction in fact) gameplay that is often claimed to have been removed from the game doesn't appear to be based on the substance of OP's comments.  I wasn't going to point out his misuse of the term strategic because I didn't want to muddle the issue.  

The intent wasn't so much to call out doubters to eat their hat, as it were, but to encourage them to explain - if they could - how their fears over the precise nature of the camera in DA:2 could still hold water, or if in fact the entire basis of their objections are the entirely based on some odd devotion to a specific and limited angle (the isometric view) and possibly comment on whether or not they still believe that pause-and-play gameplay is still being phased out of the game.

No one has actually taken me up on this, as the so-called "usual suspects" haven't even come into this thread.

Ok, try this one more time for me - what exactly is it that you want answered?

"explain - if they could - how their fears over the precise nature of
the camera in DA:2 could still hold water, or if in fact the entire
basis of their objections are the entirely based on some odd devotion to
a specific and limited angle (the isometric view) and possibly comment
on whether or not they still believe that pause-and-play gameplay is
still being phased out of the game"

You want someone to explain what they fear is wrong with DA2?  Or you are just looking for people with the specific items you listed above?

Upsettingshorts wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
 (I'll toss that one out there for people like CoS Sarah Jinstar and me - the Futile Resistance!)

I don't lump you in with CoS Sarah Jinstar, and you shouldn't do yourself the disservice of doing that either.

I usually tend to not get as heated up or go over the top like she does - and for prior issues from BioWare games I remember being on the other side from her...
but her general stand on DA2 is often pretty close to mine.

Modifié par MerinTB, 11 novembre 2010 - 06:03 .

[nightcobra]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Waaaaaant. Waaaaaant. Nowwwwwwwwww.

/flops around on the floor moaning.

I'm glad the combat will be tighter and seemingly quicker. Cannot wait. :-)

seconded, mostly because the party in origins wasn't fast enough to follow my tactics so i had to come up with new tactics most of the time to match the speed of my party members reactions.

and thank god we can now direct a party member's movement through the radial menu without switching characters.

[upsettingshorts]

MerinTB wrote...

You want someone to explain what they fear is wrong with DA2?  Or you are just looking for people with the specific items you listed above?

Reconcile their fear of the tactical camera as well as tactical gameplay being removed or nerfed or made insignificant with the opinion of the OP's - who has seen the game in action in person - assertion that there is indeed a tactical camera and pause-and-play is still a viable and rewarding experience. 

I do not expect them to actually change their minds, but I did expect additional insight into their positions.  In some cases, I expect them to be just as tenuous and prejudicial as I imagine they are.  In other cases, I expect I simply don't understand them enough.  And in other cases I imagine I'll understand their fears completely.

My first post was only step one towards that goal.  I had to get people biting in the thread first.  But that didn't work, obviously. 

MerinTB wrote...
I usually tend to not get as heated up or go over the top like she does - and for prior issues from BioWare games I remember being on the other side from her... but her general stand on DA2 is often pretty close to mine.

It's not your similar opinions I was making a distinction over.  It was that I don't have to make a concerted effort to take your posts seriously as they are not wantonly and casually combative.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 novembre 2010 - 06:08 .

[Shepard Lives]

Seagloom wrote...

shepard_lives wrote...

This.
We should ask Gashington to change the title to something like "I played DA2... goodbye Bioware" or "DA2: not a spiritual successor" or something equally pompous and negative, so that all the doomsayers will come in here, read the review, and proceed to eat a crow.

Yes. Because *that* would be mature. <_< Honestly, why take unsolicited potshots at people? It is not as if anyone came in here ranting against DA2. Comments like that do nothing positive for the community.

Oh, I didn't mean to come off as rude. As a certain AI would say, that is a joke.

[nightcobra]

shepard_lives wrote...


Oh, I didn't mean to come off as rude. As a certain AI would say, that is a joke.

*raises eyebrow*

couldn't resist doing it:lol:

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Also - Upsettingshorts (and several others on here) seem to be indicating that "naysayers", or whatever you want to call people who have voiced unease or dislike of what has been revealed about DA2, would suddenly be disarmed or taken aback that someone played the demo and said "this plays better than DA:O did" (praraphrasing there) or, more importantly based on the emphasis Upsettingshorts used and others who said words to the effect of eating crow (or hat, or whatever it was) seem, to me, to be focusing on "more strategic" in the OP's review.

Actually all I was getting at with that comment was - and this wasn't made clear because I was clearly baiting people as you noticed - that tactical (I understand the difference, one of my favorite game series is based on the actual distinction in fact) gameplay that is often claimed to have been removed from the game doesn't appear to be based on the substance of OP's comments.  I wasn't going to point out his misuse of the term strategic because I didn't want to muddle the issue.  

The intent wasn't so much to call out doubters to eat their hat, as it were, but to encourage them to explain - if they could - how their fears over the precise nature of the camera in DA:2 could still hold water, or if in fact the entire basis of their objections are entirely based on some odd devotion to a specific and limited angle (the isometric view) and possibly comment on whether or not they still believe that pause-and-play gameplay (either literally or the need for it) is being phased out of the game.

No one has actually taken me up on this, as the so-called "usual suspects" haven't even come into this thread.  Which is a shame, because my pointing that out was meant to be a rhetorical device aimed at guiding the rest of the discussion around OP's post, as opposed to anything else contained within it.  Obviously, it has mixed results.  And yeah, I'm fully aware that intentionally trying to divert the path of a thread topic in such a manner is only a distant cousin of trolling, heh.

MerinTB wrote...
 (I'll toss that one out there for people like CoS Sarah Jinstar and me - the Futile Resistance!)

I don't lump you in with CoS Sarah Jinstar, and you shouldn't do yourself the disservice of doing that either.

Why even mention me like I'm this piece of crap person? Let me lay it out there AngryPants, I'm not politically correct, nor do I wish to be. I'm not afraid to say what's on my mind either, and I really don't care if it hurts the feelings of some console  player or fanboy from time to time.

At this point its more just like venting since Bioware clearly couldn't care much less about the older PC fans since they figured we'll buy it anyway. I will be getting DA2 since I preordered, but like I've said before, if it leaves me with a ME2 taste in the mouth thats it for day 1 purchases from me, I'll buy bargin bin, or cheaply from other sources from now on.

[upsettingshorts]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Why even mention me like I'm this piece of crap person? Let me lay it out there AngryPants, I'm not politically correct, nor do I wish to be. I'm not afraid to say what's on my mind either, and I really don't care if it hurts the feelings of some console  player or fanboy from time to time.

I didn't bring you up.  MerinTB did.  And there's a world of difference between being civil and being politically correct.

The latter is self-censorship aimed at minimizing offense.  The former is having respect for others.  Claiming oneself to be politically incorrect is not a blanket pardon for being mean.  In any event, I'm not offended by your language, but your approach makes you difficult to take seriously - which is not a problem I have with MerinTB.  Hence the distinction.

Anyway, got a response to the OP or...?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 novembre 2010 - 07:25 .

[Apollo Starflare]

I do think that the change of camera is being a little overstated as it is, what we know so far is that the isometric view has gone but the actual tactical camera remains. I've seen posts around the boards that seem to use the removal of the tactical camera itself as one reason DA2 won't be anything like Origins, but it isn't the tactical camera that has been removed but the isometric call back to BG. From everything the devs have said the redesigned tac cam sounds like an excellent way of getting an overview of the battle and issuing orders - especially on the pc. And as a console fan I am very excited at the possibility we might be getting this version of the tactical camera this time around as well.

[upsettingshorts]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

I do think that the change of camera is being a little overstated as it is, what we know so far is that the isometric view has gone but the actual tactical camera remains. I've seen posts around the boards that seem to use the removal of the tactical camera itself as one reason DA2 won't be anything like Origins, but it isn't the tactical camera that has been removed but the isometric call back to BG. From everything the devs have said the redesigned tac cam sounds like an excellent way of getting an overview of the battle and issuing orders - especially on the pc. And as a console fan I am very excited at the possibility we might be getting this version of the tactical camera this time around as well.

What I'm wondering about the uproar over the "less zoomed out" tactical camera is what's the problem is you're going to retain the ability to pause and move the camera?  What practical effect is lost?  I'm not following the argument.  Are people assuming the camera will zoom back over the person's shoulder more?  Someone needs to explain the problem to me.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Why even mention me like I'm this piece of crap person? Let me lay it out there AngryPants, I'm not politically correct, nor do I wish to be. I'm not afraid to say what's on my mind either, and I really don't care if it hurts the feelings of some console  player or fanboy from time to time.

I didn't bring you up.  MerinTB did.  And there's a world of difference between being civil and being politically correct.

The latter is self-censorship aimed at minimizing offense.  The former is having respect for others.  Claiming oneself to be politically incorrect is not a blanket pardon for being mean.  In any event, I'm not offended by your language, but your approach makes you difficult to take seriously - which is not a problem I have with MerinTB.  Hence the distinction.

Anyway, got a response to the OP or...?

Not really, it wasn't the PC version and at this point, I'm tired of rehasing the same arguments. He enjoyed it. Yay I guess?  

I honestly don't have much respect for people that answer valid criticism of design decisions with comments like playing dress up, or go open an excell spread sheet. Just sayin.

[SoulRebel_1979]

Apollo Starflare wrote...
what we know so far is that the isometric view has gone but the actual tactical camera remains.

So, no more Iso camera at all? Even for PC players?