248 réponses à ce sujet

[AtreiyaN7]

Question to the OP: I know that so far people have given you at least two audio samples to try to figure out who is voicing male Hawke but that so far you've said it's not either one of them After listening to male Hawke, is there any character from DA:O that you can think of who kind of sounded like male Hawke? Liiiiike Cailan maybe?

[In Exile]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I don't see whats so wrong about reading a game manual to learn how to play a game that isn't just say a simple first person shooter for example.

There's nothing wrong with it; but there isn't some grandstanding value in it either. It doesn't involve more or less flair than playing COD. You're largely doing the same sort of thinking once you become famiiliar with the system, the only difference is that an older RPG requires a heavy involvement before you can understand what the rules that you're playing by are.

[Fortlowe]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Question to the OP: I know that so far people have given you at least two audio samples to try to figure out who is voicing male Hawke but that so far you've said it's not either one of them After listening to male Hawke, is there any character from DA:O that you can think of who kind of sounded like male Hawke? Liiiiike Cailan maybe?

I kinda hope it's the Thane Krios VA. I just don't know if I would prefer him with or without auto tunning.

Modifié par Fortlowe, 12 novembre 2010 - 05:19 .

[AlanC9]

The Director wrote...
So where did you stand on the idea of Tier-based armor ratings? Did that correlate around the same system as a more simplified star-based system would? Did putting bonuses in green and restrictions in red help at all? Just a question; I don't to accidentally sound confrontational. [Sorry, I get that a lot]

The star ratings don't replace item stats. They're apparently just a guide to which stats you want to look at. 

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

In Exile wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I don't see whats so wrong about reading a game manual to learn how to play a game that isn't just say a simple first person shooter for example.

There's nothing wrong with it; but there isn't some grandstanding value in it either. It doesn't involve more or less flair than playing COD. You're largely doing the same sort of thinking once you become famiiliar with the system, the only difference is that an older RPG requires a heavy involvement before you can understand what the rules that you're playing by are.

So you read the manual and you get to understand whats going on. I don't really see much of an issue in that. Like I said, theres a middle ground, the issue is Bioware appears to want to cater more to the casuals than the hardcore RPG'ers, and that to me quite frankly is extremely disappointing.

[Piecake]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I don't see whats so wrong about reading a game manual to learn how to play a game that isn't just say a simple first person shooter for example.

You find it enjoyable.  I dont.  You get a game manual and hopefully i get an ease into beginning or some sort of in-game, optional tutorial.  Everyone wins.

[slimgrin]

filaminstrel wrote...

I believe Mike Laidlaw said the goal is not to strip any complexity from the system, but to introduce it in a way similar to how WoW introduces it, that is, letting you dip your feet into the water first, and then gradually introducing more features as you go.

I suppose you could say that even if that is the goal, it doesn't mean they will realize that goal.

It's a worthy goal. Problem is, ME2 tried this too. It got your feet wet and let you wade the shallows a bit, but that's as far as it went.

ME2 is still in the back of everyone's mind. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 12 novembre 2010 - 05:24 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Fortlowe wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Question to the OP: I know that so far people have given you at least two audio samples to try to figure out who is voicing male Hawke but that so far you've said it's not either one of them After listening to male Hawke, is there any character from DA:O that you can think of who kind of sounded like male Hawke? Liiiiike Cailan maybe?

I kinda hope it's the Thane Krios VA. I just don't know if I would prefer him with or without auto tunning.

Needless to say, I would approve of Thane's VA. *points at signature*

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Piecake wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I don't see whats so wrong about reading a game manual to learn how to play a game that isn't just say a simple first person shooter for example.

You find it enjoyable.  I dont.  You get a game manual and hopefully i get an ease into beginning or some sort of in-game, optional tutorial.  Everyone wins.

I don't object to that either, but again its not hard to read a game manual, especially these days since most of them are about 10 pages long and thats including the front and back covers. I mean how lazy do people have to be? (not that I'm calling you personally lazy Pie)

[Onyx Jaguar]

A tutorial or should I put it in plainer terms, a "easy" portion of the game allows for the game to have a better scale of difficulty. Relying on a manual is exactly what games like X-COM did. I don't see the point of this discussion manual reliance is a relic of the early 90s for the most part.

[Piecake]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Piecake wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I don't see whats so wrong about reading a game manual to learn how to play a game that isn't just say a simple first person shooter for example.

You find it enjoyable.  I dont.  You get a game manual and hopefully i get an ease into beginning or some sort of in-game, optional tutorial.  Everyone wins.

I don't object to that either, but again its not hard to read a game manual, especially these days since most of them are about 10 pages long and thats including the front and back covers. I mean how lazy do people have to be? (not that I'm calling you personally lazy Pie)

Dont worry, you are.  And I'm quite sure that you think I am some illiterate buffoon who hasnt picked up a book in his life.  Video game manual != actual books (fiction or non-fiction)

Quite simply, i think an in-game tuturial or ease into beginning is simply a much better and more enjoyable way to introduce the game's play mechanics.  I could read a boring manual or learn how to play by while playing the game.  Pretty easy choice for me.  And since i know that that choice is out there, ill be disappointed if it's not in the game.

[SirOccam]

The Director wrote...

Sorry, I did get hit with nostalgia. But of course there is a limit to what should be read. I don't think there is any reason to explain one action with 5 pages, (just a random example I made up), but my point is yes, I agree reading instructions for absolutely everything is too much, but taking away from that notion and going the complete opposite direction isn't exactly the best decision either.  Obviously there is a fine line to balance on, but I'm wondering where does the line get shaky, if that metaphor made sense.

I doubt it did.

I don't think they are going the complete opposite direction, though. What gives you that impression? They still have Codices; that was probably the most prominent example of story-via-text that I can think of from Origins. They still allow you to see all the stats on your items; they just added the stars too. I guess you could say they moved away from it by using paraphrasis with their dialogue wheel, but I guess whether that tradeoff was okay depends on your opinions about having a voiced protagonist. But even if you don't like the voiced PC, and would rather have the full line there to read, I guess I just don't think it's that big of a deal. People are describing massive tidal shifts in BioWare's game-making philosophy because you select a paraphrase instead of a full line? Or because they added little star indicators?

I can't say I know exactly where the line is, but I'm having a hard time thinking of things that I think really NEED to be communicated via text and not through speech or visuals, aside from obvious things like subtitles. Codices, I guess. I'm really glad they didn't go the ME route of having a voice read them to you at the same times as you read them for yourself.

[Onyx Jaguar]

See my copy came with a PDF and not a manual, and to me PDF's are worthless because they are slow and require my ****ing computer to use.



ANd no I don't feel like getting a PDA just to read PDF's

[Fortlowe]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

In Exile wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I don't see whats so wrong about reading a game manual to learn how to play a game that isn't just say a simple first person shooter for example.

There's nothing wrong with it; but there isn't some grandstanding value in it either. It doesn't involve more or less flair than playing COD. You're largely doing the same sort of thinking once you become famiiliar with the system, the only difference is that an older RPG requires a heavy involvement before you can understand what the rules that you're playing by are.

So you read the manual and you get to understand whats going on. I don't really see much of an issue in that. Like I said, theres a middle ground, the issue is Bioware appears to want to cater more to the casuals than the hardcore RPG'ers, and that to me quite frankly is extremely disappointing.

I've said this before: Anyone who isn't paid to  play videogames is a casual gamer. Beyond that is simply the relative committment an individual makes to the pasttime.

Who are these hardcore gamers you wish Bioware to cater to, Jinstar?

Are they D&D players? If that's the case, is there a segment of D&D players that absolutely deplore  the idea of any of their favorite games mechanics being imported into a videogame? Are they longtime RPG videogame players? If that's the case, then Zelda is about as oldschool as it gets, and objectively, a lot of what I've seen from DA:O  and even more so in DA2, remninds me of Zelda.

Or is it really that you consider this hardcore gamer an aficianado of a very specific type of game? If that is the case you can hardly blame BW for diverging from the slimest path a bit to reach a wider audience. Especially if the product they turn out can be appreciated by this hardcore gamer if they wound down long enoough to give the game a go.

But, I'm just a lowly console gamer. I like joysticks and  COD and twitch gameplay and eyecatching visuals and compelling level design. Afterall, my main use for a keyboard is to type and stuff, and I honestly have never used a hotkey in my entire life,  so I couldn't possibly know what the hell I'm talking about. Just in case I'm on to something though, I'm gonna get my pre-order in as soon as possible, though.

[SirOccam]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

The Director wrote...

I do so miss the days when we would read the booklets to understand our new games. Reading was fun...

I enjoy reading as much as the next guy, but there are lots of good reasons and methods for removing it or reducing it in video games. It's not always the best answer. I don't think having to read through a manual before beginning a video game is such a great use.

If it was so unarguably great for every situation, we'd never have moved beyond Zork and the like.

C'mon Occam, you're making it out to sound like traditional CRPG's are this overly complicated mess, and thats just not the case.

They're not overly complicated to people like you and me, but can you speak for newcomers to the RPG genres? Actually, now that you mention it, I think DAO could have really benefitted from the star indicators. Of course I was familiar with the concepts of Strength, Dexterity, etc., from MMOs and other cRPGs and PnP RPGs, but I thought it was a pretty significant weakness of DAO's that they didn't communicate their take on them very well. How much Magic is enough for a Mage? How much Cunning and/or Dexterity for a rogue? I frankly had no idea based on what the game presented me with, and only learned what I know now from the forums or elsewhere on the net. Now imagine what it must be like for someone who doesn't even know what something like Willpower even means in a gaming sense.

Actually, it just so happens that DA2 is sort of giving us both what we want, at least in this. When I leveled up during the demo at PAX, hovering over attributes resulted in tooltips telling me that choosing this stat would increase this other value by x. It's the hard info you guys seem to want and the user-friendliness I want.

There's a difference between streamlining features to make them better, and out right gutting them to the point of such simplicity to try and sell more copies. Unfortunately Bioware seems to be making a Beeline towards the later as of late. Because RPG's are too complex for the casual fanbase they so desperately want to reach out to.

RPGs really are complex, though. And I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to reach out to casual players, especially if they can do it in ways that don't take anything away from the more hardcore players, such as this star rating thing. Number-crunchers are free to ignore them and just look at the hard data, while new players and players like me can get the gist quickly without being forced to do the same.

AngryPants brought up Flight Simulators earlier; I think that's a great example. I love the idea of a flight sim, and had wanted to buy one for a long time when I actually tried a demo. I chose a plane, and the next thing I know, it's just me and a huge, confusing-ass control panel. I was like "WTF am I supposed to do now?" I tried sifting through the help menus, but it wasn't long before I had lost all enthusiasm for the prospect.

Now what would be so wrong if they offered an optional simplified control scheme, where I didn't practically have to have a pilot's license in order to know how to make the damn thing take off? I'd bet $100 such a move would ****** off some of the hardcore flight sim guys, no matter how optional it was. "You're just selling out!" they'd shout to the company that made the program. "You just want all those casual 'bros' and their money!"

I guess I don't see the harm in wanting to sell more copies, especially since selling more copies is a natural consequence of having made a better game. Some of these changes might not be to everyone's taste, but if we can try to think at all objectively about it, a better game wouldn't cater to only one particular niche of player. Better for that niche, perhaps, but BioWare have other people to consider as well. And that is no failing.

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I don't see whats so wrong about reading a game manual to learn how to play a game that isn't just say a simple first person shooter for example.

I don't know if I'd call it wrong, but it's not really playing to the medium's strengths, now is it? It'd be like going to a movie and having the first half hour be nothing but a black screen and someone's voice explaining some of the major characters and the story's setting before the visuals finally start.

If I want to read a book, I'll read a book, not play a videogame. In a videogame, and more specifically in an RPG, I'm there to be immersed in a story, not to become a master of a particular set of gameplay mechanics.

Modifié par SirOccam, 12 novembre 2010 - 05:46 .

[AlanC9]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

ANd no I don't feel like getting a PDA just to read PDF's

Or a printer?

But yeah, PDFs are a pretty worthless way to distribute documents; even an RTF document would be better. Of course, they're free to the publisher since you get a PDF as part of the print manufacturing process.

[AlanC9]

SirOccam wrote...
 Of course I was familiar with the concepts of Strength, Dexterity, etc., from MMOs and other cRPGs and PnP RPGs, but I thought it was a pretty significant weakness of DAO's that they didn't communicate their take on them very well. How much Magic is enough for a Mage? How much Cunning and/or Dexterity for a rogue? I frankly had no idea based on what the game presented me with, and only learned what I know now from the forums or elsewhere on the net.

It's not at all clear that Bioware understood the system well enough to give good advice about builds anyway.

[Leonia]

The thing is, manuals were great back in the day when games had simpler mechanics. Nowadays, with better technology and more innovation, games are complex. That's why not everyone is an RPG fan and there are people out there who only play short, hack-n-slash games. It doesn't mean those people are less intelligent than the RPG fans who take their time to enjoy their gaming experience, it just means some people want to get into the game right away instead of going through "How to Play 101".

I love manuals because I love reading things but I know I am a minority in that. What better way to show someone how to play the game than to.. let them play it right away and give a few tooltips offering help and advice as they go? Some people just learn better by doing things. Origins wasn't very good at teaching new-timers to RPGs, heck, even veteran RPG gamers may have struggled with it. Anything that makes the game more accessible and playable to newtimers is a good thing, it's not like they've gotten rid of the "hardcore" features. You don't have to use the star-system if you'd rather play the number-crunching game.

SirOccam wrote..

If I want to read a book, I'll read a book, not play a videogame. In a videogame, and more specifically in an RPG, I'm there to be immersed in a story, not to become a master of a particular set of gameplay mechanics.

Players approach games differenly, but most of us who appreciate RPGs, especially Bioware ones, are here to experience a story not play a PnP dungeon-campaign, complete with number-crunching every tme someone rolls a dice. I get it, some people just see it as a game to be conquered and they want to mess with the game mechanic side of things as much as possible. In MMO terms, we call those people "gear-heads".

But some of us, just want an experience that is somewhat challenging and rewarding but ultimately not overly complicated. We want to get through all the combat and get on with the next part of the story. That doesn't mean we want things dumbed down or we don't care about armour or stats or combat mechanics.. we do, we just.. don't want to spend the majority of our play session trying to think about game mechanics.

I wouldn't mind seeing better game manuals but I do see the value in teaching people as they go along in the game world. There's nothing wrong with inviting more people to the RPG genre and seeing them love it as much as we do. It's better to "dumb" things down (I'd say "making it newbie friendly but not at the cost of the veteran's expense") and keep the genre alive than it is to turn us into a bunch of niche gamers with very little to look forward to as our genre phases out.

Modifié par leonia42, 12 novembre 2010 - 06:11 .

[Meltemph]

I dunno, I found EvE to be one of the most complex games I have played, and they do a great job of explaining the mechanics in the game... Manuals are good and all but but explaining the mechanics through experience is a much better way of teaching, imo.



Not everyone is going to want to invest time into a game, enough to bother with learning the rules of a game, if it requires an undesired time sink. I know plenty of people who I graduated collage with, who have IQ's and test scores that make them certifiable geniuses who don't want to spend much time on video games when it comes to understanding the game, unless they show you in the game.



Not everyone finds their intellectual worth from video games, nor does everyone take video games near as seriously.

[Onyx Jaguar]

As an addendum I'm not arguing against manuals, I love manuals and the lack of manuals is one of the reason why I stopped playing PC games, but I also believe that the relevant information that you need to play a game and succeed in it should be taught within the game.



A summary of controls and settings and extra in depth information should be in a manual, but also within the game somewhere in the menus.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Fortlowe wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

In Exile wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I don't see whats so wrong about reading a game manual to learn how to play a game that isn't just say a simple first person shooter for example.

There's nothing wrong with it; but there isn't some grandstanding value in it either. It doesn't involve more or less flair than playing COD. You're largely doing the same sort of thinking once you become famiiliar with the system, the only difference is that an older RPG requires a heavy involvement before you can understand what the rules that you're playing by are.

So you read the manual and you get to understand whats going on. I don't really see much of an issue in that. Like I said, theres a middle ground, the issue is Bioware appears to want to cater more to the casuals than the hardcore RPG'ers, and that to me quite frankly is extremely disappointing.

I've said this before: Anyone who isn't paid to  play videogames is a casual gamer. Beyond that is simply the relative committment an individual makes to the pasttime.

Who are these hardcore gamers you wish Bioware to cater to, Jinstar?

Are they D&D players? If that's the case, is there a segment of D&D players that absolutely deplore  the idea of any of their favorite games mechanics being imported into a videogame? Are they longtime RPG videogame players? If that's the case, then Zelda is about as oldschool as it gets, and objectively, a lot of what I've seen from DA:O  and even more so in DA2, remninds me of Zelda.

Or is it really that you consider this hardcore gamer an aficianado of a very specific type of game? If that is the case you can hardly blame BW for diverging from the slimest path a bit to reach a wider audience. Especially if the product they turn out can be appreciated by this hardcore gamer if they wound down long enoough to give the game a go.

But, I'm just a lowly console gamer. I like joysticks and  COD and twitch gameplay and eyecatching visuals and compelling level design. Afterall, my main use for a keyboard is to type and stuff, and I honestly have never used a hotkey in my entire life,  so I couldn't possibly know what the hell I'm talking about. Just in case I'm on to something though, I'm gonna get my pre-order in as soon as possible, though.

I meant in the genre sense.  Zelda isn't an RPG its an action game. And I'll say it again, there's nothing wrong with finding a MIDDLE GROUND on game features/functions/systems, so everyone can have something they enjoy. Its when they decide to strip out half of what I enjoyed in Origins, companion gear, realistic looking animations and attack speeds, darker artwork considering the story is well dark, then it becomes a problem in that the only portion of the fanbase that is being heard is the console users. 

Take that as a slight if you want but reality is just that reality. Its near impossible to have any sort of complexity when you're limited to about 10 buttons if that, and two analog sticks.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Buttons isn't relevant, most PC games I have played all you need is a Mouse and two buttons. Its the design relevant to the interface given that is important.

[slimgrin]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

 I love manuals and the lack is one of the reason why I stopped playing PC games,

 

You have got to be kidding. You forgo an entire platform due to a dearth of printed manuals?

Holy crap.