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Dragon Age 2 at Gamex


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#201
In Exile

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

So you read the manual and you get to understand whats going on. I don't really see much of an issue in that. Like I said, theres a middle ground, the issue is Bioware appears to want to cater more to the casuals than the hardcore RPG'ers, and that to me quite frankly is extremely disappointing.


An RPG system, like D&D, involves more than "reading" the manual. You have to approach it as if you were reading a textbook. If the system is like 3e D&D, you have to work out through the calculations yourself to get an intuiton for them. For example, what is the magnitude of a  +2 stat allocation to Str for a dmg modifier? This is something you have to calculate. That's just for understanding the setting. If you want to get into which builds and abilities are crap or not, that's just trial and error.

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I don't object to that either,
but again its not hard to read a game manual, especially these days
since most of them are about 10 pages long and thats including the front
and back covers. I mean how lazy do people have to be? (not that I'm
calling you personally lazy Pie)


This is just silly. If a game was as complicated as you want it to be, a 10 page manual would be useless. Could you create a D&D manual that is 10 pages long an explains anything?

Complicated games require a lot of effort, and there are people that have better things to do. It has nothing to do with laziness, or short attention span.

If a game required you to enter all commands in Python, this wouldn't make it a complicated game; it would be just have a high barrier of entry.

#202
Xewaka

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

realistic [...] attack speeds


If you actually believe it takes a trained warrior three to four seconds to wield a two-handed weapon in a strike, your concept of realistic lacks... well, reality.


darker artwork considering the story is well dark


Where? The story might be dark if you play a selfish jerk, but there's enough third options in the game to have a reasonably happy ending.

Upsettingshorts wrote...
They wanted their characters to be more distinct and sacrificed customization.


You know, this bugs me. I believe that Bioware writers are competent enough to make memorable characters without the need of a visual crutch to distinguish them. The loss of customization on companions is one of the thigns that worries me the most about DA:2.

Modifié par Xewaka, 12 novembre 2010 - 02:16 .


#203
upsettingshorts

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Xewaka wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
They wanted their characters to be more distinct and sacrificed customization.


You know, this bugs me. I believe that Bioware writers are competent enough to make memorable characters without the need of a visual crutch to distinguish them. The loss of customization on companions is one of the thigns that worries me the most about DA:2.


And that's a perfectly reasonable stance.  It doesn't deny their motivation and claim that it's pandering to a console crowd who finds inventory management impossible to comprehend.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 novembre 2010 - 02:19 .


#204
nightcobra

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
They wanted their characters to be more distinct and sacrificed customization.


You know, this bugs me. I believe that Bioware writers are competent enough to make memorable characters without the need of a visual crutch to distinguish them. The loss of customization on companions is one of the thigns that worries me the most about DA:2.


And that's a perfectly reasonable stance.  It doesn't deny their motivation and claim that it's pandering to a console crowd who finds inventory management impossible to comprehend.


i actually thought the companions outfit system in DA2 to take the route of rogue galaxy (yes it's a jrpg but i like it), a game where companions had 3/4 outfits specially tailored to their model.


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Modifié par nightcobra8928, 12 novembre 2010 - 02:37 .


#205
crimzontearz

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it is sooo awesome to wake up on my day off and see that this thread is still going



ok



yes I did mean NG+ (I was at work and typing from my smartphone .....thus not paying too much attention)



with that in mind let's move on



Sarah it does not matter how upset you are about something, for your own good you should not start grinding everyone's gears as you have been in the past few days/weeks. If you were a moron I'd not really bother to say this but you are a smart person so you should be able to refrain.



on the matter at hand (dumbing down, feature removal and blah blah blah blabbity blah blah)...if anything in the past few days, thanks to all the previews from conventions/leaked videos and whatnot, our (and YOUR) doubts should be fading at least a little.

It was confirmed by the devs you can STILL play DA2 like you played DAO on the pc. It was confirmed they are working on a tactical camera AND even the Xbox version has a temporaty tactical camera when you use AOE spells (so I'm pretty sure at this point the PC will have even a permanent one). At first we thought Character customization worked like in ME2...it does not, we found out it muchly works like in PST...how is that a bad thing Sarah? Like in PST the outfits will be static BUT you will be able to upgrade them, add buffs and bonuses through runes rings and necklaces (earrings would be good too but...meh) and adding both personal favorite weapons and general weapons to all of them so the customization complexity is still there......(now that I think on it buffing tattoos would be cool too). On top of that you will still be able to fully outfit your Hawke with separate armor pieces and what not which you could not do in PST for instance.



The last two previews confirm you can STILL loot....a lot, which means we are not looking at a ME2 style situation where there was NO loot at all and levels felt like a shooting gallery after another, and if there is loot there are merchants and shops and vendors and whatnot JUST like in DAO (no BS onboard supply minifactoring)



I cannot try to reassure you about the artstyle because...well that is as subjective as things can possibly get.....Personally one of my very favorite art directions so far happens to be Darksiders but a lot of other people hate it and I consider you smart enough to be abke to enjoy a game regardless of its art direction based on its gameplay and its story



so Sarah.....what is leading you to believe that all the features you loved in DAO are irreplaceably gone?

#206
Xewaka

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

And that's a perfectly reasonable stance.  It doesn't deny their motivation and claim that it's pandering to a console crowd who finds inventory management impossible to comprehend.


Honestly, considering the state of most Console-to-PC ports that I've played, It'll be enough for me if they just keep origins UI untouched.

As for the review: well, it's informative, but since PC is my platform of choice, I'd like to know when will be having PC demos to test.

#207
Ziggeh

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Man, game manuals, I remember them.

I know everything looks better through nostalgic eyes, but realistically they're a relic of a period in game design were the developers were essentially finding their feet when it came to relating to their audience. They got better at it, learning ways to teach us that information in game, as part of the game. Either through tutorials or more subtley.

And subtlety is good. If they can teach you what you need to know without it ever really feeling like a learning period, it's really strong design. Manuals are the antithesis of subtle learning. Admittedly, as 'shorts says, many of us will know they "language" many games are talking through previous experience, and so going back to the shallow end occasionally can prove frustrating, but just because something has been designed well, for all of it's audience, doesn't make it conceited.

#208
tmp7704

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Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Hmmm not related to the current discussion, but the previewer said shortswords, I wonder if he ment daggers or that is a new weapon class?

The probably meant daggers -- on all previews so far rogue Hawke seems armed with one of the DAO dagger models, and DAO daggers are big like all other DAO weapons, making them look more like shortswords.

#209
crimzontearz

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tmp7704 wrote...

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Hmmm not related to the current discussion, but the previewer said shortswords, I wonder if he ment daggers or that is a new weapon class?

The probably meant daggers -- on all previews so far rogue Hawke seems armed with one of the DAO dagger models, and DAO daggers are big like all other DAO weapons, making them look more like shortswords.


in many foreign languages there is no real distinction (in common language) between dagger and short sword

#210
Shepard Lives

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Xewaka wrote...

Honestly, considering the state of most Console-to-PC ports that I've played, It'll be enough for me if they just keep origins UI untouched.


IT'S NOT.
A CONSOLE.
PORT. The three versions are being developed alongside each other. Gah misinformation.

Unless I misunderstood your post?

#211
Herr Uhl

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crimzontearz wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Hmmm not related to the current discussion, but the previewer said shortswords, I wonder if he ment daggers or that is a new weapon class?

The probably meant daggers -- on all previews so far rogue Hawke seems armed with one of the DAO dagger models, and DAO daggers are big like all other DAO weapons, making them look more like shortswords.


in many foreign languages there is no real distinction (in common language) between dagger and short sword


In Swedish there is.

#212
Xewaka

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shepard_lives wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Honestly, considering the state of most Console-to-PC ports that I've played, It'll be enough for me if they just keep origins UI untouched.


IT'S NOT.
A CONSOLE.
PORT. The three versions are being developed alongside each other. Gah misinformation.

Unless I misunderstood your post?


I think I might have been unclear. what I meant to say is, considering the state of most console-to-PC ports, the fact that they developed the game for the three systems side-by-side is already a point in favor of them. The keeping with the UI was to emphasize the fact that it still should work like Origins on the PC.

#213
Shepard Lives

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Xewaka wrote...

shepard_lives wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Honestly, considering the state of most Console-to-PC ports that I've played, It'll be enough for me if they just keep origins UI untouched.


IT'S NOT.
A CONSOLE.
PORT. The three versions are being developed alongside each other. Gah misinformation.

Unless I misunderstood your post?


I think I might have been unclear. what I meant to say is, considering the state of most console-to-PC ports, the fact that they developed the game for the three systems side-by-side is already a point in favor of them. The keeping with the UI was to emphasize the fact that it still should work like Origins on the PC.


My bad then. :D

#214
crimzontearz

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Herr Uhl wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Hmmm not related to the current discussion, but the previewer said shortswords, I wonder if he ment daggers or that is a new weapon class?

The probably meant daggers -- on all previews so far rogue Hawke seems armed with one of the DAO dagger models, and DAO daggers are big like all other DAO weapons, making them look more like shortswords.


in many foreign languages there is no real distinction (in common language) between dagger and short sword


In Swedish there is.


not in italian tho

"Daga" and "spada corta" refer both to short swords...of different makings but both short swords 

#215
Herr Uhl

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crimzontearz wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Hmmm not related to the current discussion, but the previewer said shortswords, I wonder if he ment daggers or that is a new weapon class?

The probably meant daggers -- on all previews so far rogue Hawke seems armed with one of the DAO dagger models, and DAO daggers are big like all other DAO weapons, making them look more like shortswords.


in many foreign languages there is no real distinction (in common language) between dagger and short sword


In Swedish there is.


not in italian tho

"Daga" and "spada corta" refer both to short swords...of different makings but both short swords 


Well, this part of the initial post gives me the sneaking suspicion that he is Swedish, and thus speaks it as his mother-tongue. 

This is a short summery of what we Swedes saw at the Bioware (EA) booth and presentation at Gamex: 


Unless you were just making a general statement.

#216
crimzontearz

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no it was quite a general statement.....Federico had another preview of the game that he wrote after playing it at the Lucca convention he was asked a similar question

#217
tez19

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MOD EDIT: Removed offensive post. This is far, far beyond acceptable behaviour. If you can't discuss things civilly, don't bother discussing them in our forums at all.

Modifié par JohnEpler, 12 novembre 2010 - 05:54 .


#218
Gashington

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Unless you were just making a general statement.


No I'm swedish, hudnahudnafjord etc.



I know someone asked a few pages ago, but no I won't be able to pick out Hawke's voiceactor, I heard about 2 sentences from the guy!

He sounds proper british and fits the role quite well, that's all I can tell you.

and yes I probably did mean daggers.

#219
MerinTB

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ziggehunderslash wrote...

Man, game manuals, I remember them.

I know everything looks better through nostalgic eyes, but realistically they're a relic of a period in game design were the developers were essentially finding their feet when it came to relating to their audience. They got better at it, learning ways to teach us that information in game, as part of the game. Either through tutorials or more subtley.

And subtlety is good. If they can teach you what you need to know without it ever really feeling like a learning period, it's really strong design. Manuals are the antithesis of subtle learning. Admittedly, as 'shorts says, many of us will know they "language" many games are talking through previous experience, and so going back to the shallow end occasionally can prove frustrating, but just because something has been designed well, for all of it's audience, doesn't make it conceited.


I've been trying to avoid this topic, but here's where I fail.

I love manuals.  Thick manuals, especially for cRPGs.  With info about character builds and all the abilities you can choose...
and nowadays it means I have to buy a separate Strategy Guide, of which I won't use 70% of the guide but it's the only way to get what I want.
I take the manuals around the house with me - so when I have some down time, eating lunch or something, I read through character build options and such.

I hate in-game tutorials... especially when characters in the game speak in "press the X button" breaking the 4th wall crap.  I dislike starter areas, unless you can just skip them.  And I do - I'm not so impatient nor against reading that taking ten minutes to go through the game instructions.  I'd rather do that and when I play I get to play from the get go rather than have hand-holder characters and a good half-hour of game time wasted on "too easy" stuff to bring me up to speed.

That's my preference, however.  I'm annoyed at tutorial / starting areas, but I've learned to tolerate them.

Relic?  Adjusting?  It was a period of like thirty years of "adjusting"...
when what's closer to the TRUTH is that it was cheaper to put that info in a book instead in-game (like journal entries and such) as memory was very limited in early games.  As computing power and memory increased, the need for journal books and such disappeared (and while I miss them, having in-game codexes and such works effectively just as well, so it's an ok evolution in my book)... but most attempts at putting manuals as digital text files resulted in many players not bothering to read them - once the computer starts up, who wants to read the rules then?  And having a book next to you to flip through while playing is better, IMO, than tabbing between the game and a text file.
And then you get consol games where digital manuals isn't really an option.
Now printing big manuals is an expense that is easily cut to save on some developing costs, and digital manuals are largely ignored and often not a viable solution... in-game tutorials kind of became a necessity.

It's not game design adjusting to what's better... it's the technology changing, a wider audience including more impatient people, people who don't like reading, or who have other reasons to not want to have to read how to play a game and just want to be able to sit down and play it (I don't mean this as an insult, just a difference), combined with cutting costs for printing manuals and the inevitable shift to digital distribution... and it becomes clear (to me at least) that this isn't a eventual shift to something "better" but a gradual evolution that fits the times.

#220
MerinTB

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tez19 wrote...
MOD EDIT: Removed offensive post from quote as well.


Oh, so very reported.

Modifié par JohnEpler, 12 novembre 2010 - 05:59 .


#221
slimgrin

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Tez19, that was just slightly over the top.

#222
Herr Uhl

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Gashington wrote...

Unless you were just making a general statement.

No I'm swedish, hudnahudnafjord etc.


Yes, the Swedish chef talks just like me.

That was aimed at crimzontearz though. Who would decide to go to Stockholm to visit a gameshow that isn't native to Sweden?

Well, a Finn stumbling off the Silja Line maybe.

#223
John Epler

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That's the kind of behaviour that will very, very quickly make you persona non grata on our forums.



I shouldn't have to tell anyone that it's completely unacceptable to make that kind of post. Apparently I need to.

#224
Ziggeh

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MerinTB wrote...

when what's closer to the TRUTH is that it was cheaper to put that info in a book instead in-game

True, true. It's also worth mentioning that often the manual would be provide something to do while you waited for the bally thing to load.

I still contend that subtle in context education is "better" (I appreciate it's too subjective for that term, but for want of another) than something external. Not that advances in understanding of audience and their manipulation is always a good thing. Look at the film and music industries, their most prolific periods in artistic terms were when they were stabbing about in the dark, experimenting with the medium.

I'm failing to think of a decent analogy as it seems quite specific to gaming, but a system you can pick up and play, despite it's complexity is a stronger design than one that requires you to crack open books before approaching.

#225
John Epler

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As for the topic at hand - I just recently packed up to move. I was looking at my massive collection of old PC game manuals (back to the early days of Ultima and including my coffee-table sized Falcon 4.0 manual). It is very, very difficult for me to part with them. I still have the manuals from all versions of Ultima Online, and even though I picked up the 'trilogy' edition, I've got my original EverQuest manual in a place of pride.



I can certainly sympathize with the people who love manuals. When I first got into PC gaming, the process was generally - install game, play for a bit. Get to point where I need the manual (D&D Stronghold being an excellent example), then read the manual for a while until I both A) understand the mechanics necessary and B) have read all the 'flavour' text.



They are a relic of the older days of PC gaming that I, for one, really miss. And I can certainly understand why others might as well.