135 réponses à ce sujet

[ScooterPie88]

When you "our" problem with ME2 who are you speaking for because I thought it did a fine job of developing Shepard.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Plus some of that just seems to be roleplaying imagination, in the context of the game I don't see where such a thing would fit.

[Mr. MannlyMan]

ScooterPie88 wrote...

When you "our" problem with ME2 who are you speaking for because I thought it did a fine job of developing Shepard.

Do you agree or disagree with the OP? Basically, my post was MY take on the issue.

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Plus some of that just seems to be
roleplaying imagination, in the context of the game I don't see where
such a thing would fit.

My take on it is that ME1 did a better job of offering the player opportunities to define their individual characters through actual dialog with NPCs, rather than just leaving it up to the player's imagination. Shepard's convo with Mordin about the ethics involved with his genophage work was an example of how Shepard can be defined in this way; IMO it gives the character depth and the player the opportunity to define Shepard further than just choosing naughty/nice options from the dialog menu. 

[blackashes411]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Delerius_Jedi wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

But Shepard is a badass. This stuff doesn't affect him. His response to people saying 'I thought you were dead' is 'I got better'. What does that tell you about Shepard's psych? Shepard is not a 'feel sorry for myself' emo, if he was always doubting himself like this then he'd get nowhere.

What he has been through shouldn't make him question himself, it should make him stronger and more determined to finish what he started!

But Shepard would then still be a badass with the active memory of dying to vacuum exposure. Shepard would simultaniously be choking, drowing in her own blood and having her eyeballs pop. And she would still remember that when she is resurrected. Death is not something that the military can teach you to deal with. They can prepare you for the eventuality of dying but they can't train you for living with the memory of you actually going through the experience. Basically, death is an experience that Shepard can't just shrug off, no matter how much of a badass she is, and still be a credible character. Death is too big for that.

And while Shepard might not doubt her own skillset, she might actually start to doubt whether what she's doing is even making a difference in the grand scheme of things, which is what Lair of the Shadow Broker finally let her vocalize. Shepard might know she's a capable soldier, but it won't make a difference if the Council and the others won't actually put up the fleets to help fight the Reapers because they're too busy making air-quotes.

Again - self reflection on one's situation there is entirely warranted, and it would be quite foolhardy for Shepard to not engage in it.

Why doesn't Shepard cut her wrists to relieve some of the stress and test her ability to cope with pain while we're at it.

People here at least tried to pay attention to your posts until you said that immature statement. Now we're just not gonna give a damn on what you'll say from here onward, k? If you can't participate in a mature discussion, then you can leave.

[desonnac00]

I'm incline to agree with OP to some extent at least- Shepard never evolves- at least in ME2- Every important plot twist is simply forgotten until the dramatic expression on his/her face in the end.

In ME1 the fact that we were roleplaying didn't prevent Shep from evolving as a character. Overall, his/her memory is faulty. ME2 is a great game but it has flaws that cannot be ignored simply because of fandom. Like the fact that despite being advertised as a game revolving around the support characters, it's a worse game focused on that than say- Dragon Age. Faulty marketing or flawed vission- either way it isn't what they thought it was. The team is only important because of their missions- not the personalities, not the "keeping them on your side". DA was better in this respect- you can lose your party at any time- in ME2, there isn't even that much dialogue with them. I hope they learn for ME3's sake

[TK Dude]

It irritates me that some people believe ''character development = emo.''

I could still roleplay Shep in ME1 the way I want it, but that doesn't stop him/her to develop as character.

I was gripped when Bioware didn't make Shep as the protaganist be integral to the ME2 plot like in ME1 plot at all. He was dead for two years and was treated worse by the people who trusted him (VS accused him as a traitor, The Counci still thinks he's mad, etc.) and he was all like. ''I was dead for two years!''

What's more that Bioware didn't bother to make Tali or Garrus asks how Shep is feeling and concerning about his wellbeing after being dead for two years and settled with just ''You're alive?'' ''I thought you were dead.''



I'm thankful Bioware looked up to the issue in LoTSB, I think I'll sacrifice some roleplaying to show Shep show some of his humanity and he's not some soldier that doesn't have concernes or fears.

[Vena_86]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Phaedon wrote...


ME1 was a game that tried to make a step forward while keeping it's RPG identity. Unfortunately, some bad RPG elements made it to ME1, like a protagonist with no character development etc.

Lack of character development is an RPG element? 

Well most old-school RPGs don't even have your character talk when you speak to someone. 

Or in the case of Fable your character's communication is limited to farting in people's faces.

That's mainstream RPGs for ya

[Korva]

I haven't finished ME1 and don't even own ME2 so I can't really comment on how boring or not Shepard is, but here are my two cents on some of the issues mentioned in this thread.

1) Going through life without feeling, without reflecting, without caring is not "badass", to the contrary. It means you are either severely mentally retarded or severely psychologically damaged, and neither is a desirable state of being or a setup for a charismatic leader-hero-type. Courage, as someone whose name I can't bloody remember now once wrote, isn't the absence of fear, but overcoming fear. THAT is "badass". That is also why, for example, Ellen Ripley of Alien(s) is such a great protagonist and why someone with all the emotional range of a wax figure is not.

2) There is a HUGE spectrum of possibilities and behaviors between "static wax figure" and "terminally depressed wreck". A healthy human being, hero or not, will sit somewhere between those extremes.

3) Soldiers are still people, not robots. How many soldiers return from combat or "peacekeeping" assignments as psychological wrecks? How many problems, how much more suffering does that cause in their families and social circles? And how many don't get the care they need and deserve because it's not (excuse my urge to vomit) "manly"?

4) Unfortunately, using a special "cool" gimmick as a setup for their plots and then proceeding to ignore it almost completely over the course of the game is par on course for Bioware. Don't get me wrong, I like their games (mostly), but the "internal conflict" that SHOULD by rights by there because of said gimmicks is usually almost totally absent. In ME2, that's apparently the death-and-resurrection bit. In KotOR it was the Force and its effects, what being a Jedi/Sith really means, and the huge baggage that comes with the protagonist's true identity (I found it EXTREMELY unsatisfying that the Light Side options were all basically a frantic denial). In Baldur's Gate it was the divine heritage, the inborn evil that comes with it, and the struggle with Bhaal's will. In Dragon Age it was the darkspawn taint, both in terms of the effects on the new Warden, and the terrible risks it poses to the non-Warden companions. I find that really sad because it feels like all these intrinsically utterly fascinating plot and lore points are just thrown in for the sake of "k3wlness", which to me makes them worse than useless. Explore them properly with all the internal and external ramnifications, or leave them out altogether.

Modifié par Korva, 11 novembre 2010 - 11:41 .

[mopotter]

Raanz wrote...

really? Shepard is how you play him. You play him/her boring?
Meer or Hale, doesn't amount to a hill of beans, or was this thread made to start ANOTHER discussion on how much some people totally dislike Meer and love Hale?

Just curious.
For the record, I like both of them, but prefer my Shep to me male, voiced by Meer. Thanks.

I also like them both and agree.

But I would have been happy to see Shepard show a little more humor when talking to some of the others.  Not all of them and not all the time, but with her/his closer friends.  I liked Shepard being able to play cards with Ken and Gabby if you wanted to, that, to me, did add a bit of personality.    

[mopotter]

Delerius_Jedi wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Why doesn't Shepard cut her wrists to relieve some of the stress and test her ability to cope with pain while we're at it.

Because she still has a job to do in the end. You seem to think like I want to go straight to her being emo. I don't. But I do want some scenes that emphasises that hey, she is still human (or is she?!? that's another theme BioWare dropped the ball on) and not a brick.

I agree, she has a job to do and does it, and I would also have liked to see her mention to Dr. C that she was occasionally stressed out and did think about driving the firewalker into a volcano but then she thinks about, her mom, her LI, or one of the people she did save on a mission, one who would have died if she hadn't been there or just humanity as a whole, and puts one foot in front of the other and does her job.

I liked when Shepard talks to Shiala (if you didn't kill her)  and she wants to know how you go on day after day with one decision causing ripples so that more problems turn up.  

Is she still human?  I do think that the DLC for Liara did show that yes, Shepard is still human.  

[Ieldra]

I agree that Shepard tends to be a brick, in ME2 more so than in ME1. What bugs me more, though, is that he's fixed to that damn action-hero template and that he's not the smartest to say the least. I'd like some dialogue options to characterize him more, to play him less dumb and less overbearing.

That also applies to femShep, though I like her delivery better in general. I just didn't want to use convoluted language.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 novembre 2010 - 03:10 .

[ScooterPie88]

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...

When you "our" problem with ME2 who are you speaking for because I thought it did a fine job of developing Shepard.

Do you agree or disagree with the OP? Basically, my post was MY take on the issue.

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Plus some of that just seems to be
roleplaying imagination, in the context of the game I don't see where
such a thing would fit.

My take on it is that ME1 did a better job of offering the player opportunities to define their individual characters through actual dialog with NPCs, rather than just leaving it up to the player's imagination. Shepard's convo with Mordin about the ethics involved with his genophage work was an example of how Shepard can be defined in this way; IMO it gives the character depth and the player the opportunity to define Shepard further than just choosing naughty/nice options from the dialog menu. 

I disagree with the OP.
Also I think ME2 did at least as good a job at letting you define your character.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Perhaps those of us who play as a Shepard who gets up in the morning, eats a bowl of nails drenched in diesel fuel, and goes to a random planet just to kill a horde of vorcha don't want any obligatory Shepard being emo scenes.



But seriously what are you looking for exactly? There was that scene where Shepard can talk about he feels in LotSB and Shepard is a bit pissed after Ashley or Kaidan dies. Those seemed good enough character development for me.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Admiral Hackett: "Where is Shepard dammit?"

Private Smith: "Sorry sir, he/she is crying into a bowl of ice cream over something his/her LI said."

Admiral Hackett: "Great... get me that Conrad Verner guy, at least he is less emotionally fragile than Shepard."

[Nightwriter]

Yep. Pretty boring.

[Nightwriter]

I'll never understand why people use the fact that Shepard is a soldier to justify him being some kind of unfeeling brick, or worse - stupid.

It's like marines have no feelings and they can't be intelligent. I am disappoint.

"You know I'd like Shepard to come across as a bit more intelligent sometimes."
"No. He's a soldier. Soldier = moron."

"You know I'd like Shepard to show a little bit more emotion every now and then."
"No. He's a soldier. Soldier = robot."

Somewhere the marines are weeping as they read your cruel, cruel posts.

[ScooterPie88]

Would one rather have the horror movie syndrome? You know where the highly trained specialist /soldier/scientist freaks out when it hits the fan. That is the dumbest idea ever. Soldiers have feelings and are intelligent. The difference is that soldiers keep their emotions in check and not necessarily ignore their intelligence but trust that those above them might have a better idea of what is going on or have information that they don't. Shepard shows emotion but he doesn't need to go around emoting over every decision in a firefight.

[Raanz]

ReconTeam wrote...

Well I suppose your Shepard is just a wuss, here is why mine is a complete badass and isn't phased by dying.

-Born on earth, parents got killed or vanished, and Shepard soon cruised the streets in the meanest gang this side of Detroit. It was like something out of The Road Warrior.

-Joined the Systems Alliance Marine Corp just in time to kick some baratian ass. Led the assault on Torfan which he was wrongly criticized for.

-Promoted to rank of special forces badass.

-Sees images of an ugly species (protheans) getting destroyed, doesn't phase Shepard.

-Slept with the consort, punched the media, and kicked ass on the citadel.

-Ancient species that has wiped out the galaxy talking smack? Well Shepard tells them to shut it and that he is going to personally kick their ass.

-Kaiden died on Virmire, but what a damn fine way to go, almost out of ammo, geth swarming around you, and a nuke goes off at your feet. Rest in peace you magnificent sonofa*****.

-Jokers incompetence got him killed. So Shepard spends two years in some sort of Valhalla-like afterlife
before Cerberus decided "this guy is too badass to only die once." Thus he is unleashed on the galaxy for more ass-kicking.

All of these things would have emo Shepard crying with Tali down in engineering. Not badass renegade Shepard however.

Win post right here.  I salute you.

[xlI ReFLeX lIx]

Kronner wrote...

More interesting..how? YOU play the Shepard.

Shepard is a soldier not emotionally fragile wreck. Meer's VA is far superior to Hale's IMHO.

+1

[Fixers0]

I think that Shepard Mass effect 2 is written out of the perspective of the player and not himself and therefore he act's more as a conduit to mass effect and so he lacks any kind of Humanity in himself.

Modifié par Fixers0, 11 novembre 2010 - 10:10 .

[Mr. MannlyMan]

ScooterPie88 wrote...

Would one rather have the horror movie syndrome? You know where the highly trained specialist /soldier/scientist freaks out when it hits the fan. That is the dumbest idea ever. Soldiers have feelings and are intelligent. The difference is that soldiers keep their emotions in check and not necessarily ignore their intelligence but trust that those above them might have a better idea of what is going on or have information that they don't. Shepard shows emotion but he doesn't need to go around emoting over every decision in a firefight.

Again, you're not hearing us.

Shepard crying over the loss of his buddy in a firefight would = out of character and over-emotional for a former Spectre and N7 specialist.

Having him show the occasional smile or frown would make the character more expressive, and thus more believable (which ME2 does).

Giving the player a conversation in which other characters can chastise Shepard for his actions, and being able to have Shepard say:
A) "You're questioning my decision? It was the only way, you fool!"
"Not a day goes by where I don't question my own actions. Any commander who doesn't would be unfit for duty, but I chose the most practical route, and it worked."
or
C) "I've never forgotten about that. It pains me every day that I had to make that choice. I have nightmares and flashbacks about the things I've done, but that's the price every soldier has to pay. We all have to keep fighting."
OR
D) "It's just part of the job. If you can't put things like that behind you and still go on, you're not fit to lead."

...isn't emo. It just would make Shepard seem more interesting if he was put on the spot to do some inward reflecting. Less like a brick, more like an actual individual, if you get my drift. The robotic tooliness that characters like Master Chief and Duke Nukem are characterized by may be a staple for protagonists in the games industry, but in the context of what Bioware's trying to do with the Mass Effect series, it isn't as acceptable. And not everyone buys into that stereotype, which is what the heart of this argument is.